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Porshe Engine?

pilot28906

Well Known Member
Could a Porshe(sp) engine be used in an RV? Anyone tried? Aren't they simular to a Lyc? Is the cost more than a Lyc? I know nothing about alternative engines and have never seen anyone mention using a Porshe engine.
 
Porche engine

Was used in Mooney's for a while. Did not work out.

For most people (not all), an alternative engine is a good way to piddle your life away while your friends are out flying (based on observation and reports.)

There are some good installs, but many expensive disappointments.

Fly or piddle-your choice.
 
Just a thought. I am building per the plans and will go with a Lyc or clone; just wish there were some way that the price could come down a little.:D
 
PFM

Porsche Flight Motor.
That's not an auto conversion.
If you want to be a gear head, like I do, then build your own motor(s).
If you want to fly sooner, use a Lyc, as close to Van's instructions as possible. You can get sucked into the vortex with Lycs also. Lots of special and after market parts to separate you from your money, and eat up your time too. :rolleyes:
 
Just a thought. I am building per the plans and will go with a Lyc or clone; just wish there were some way that the price could come down a little.:D

I looked very seriously at the Subaru. I still think about it at times. I ended up with a Lyclone (ECI Kit) and am happy I went that route. The Honda conversion looks interesting for a possible LSA solution.
 
snip.....For most people (not all), an alternative engine is a good way to piddle your life away while your friends are out flying (based on observation and reports.) There are some good installs, but many expensive disappointments. Fly or piddle-your choice.

Was talking about this very thing today at lunch. IMHO, the alt. engine bunch helps make the hobby the amazing thing it is. The freedom to spend years tinkering with an alt. engine install is what that ‘E’ in EAA stands for. When a particular engine doesn’t work out…. we have some data and somebody will get what they think is a better idea and try something else. Maybe it ends up improving things...maybe not.

Thank goodness there are true gearheads out there that live and breathe the alternate stuff. Who’s to say in 20 years we won’t have the most rock solid alt. engine install you could dream of (thanks to the hard work of a few).

Not my bag, per say, but I’m glad there are those doing it.

The alt. engine pedigree goes back a long way and is distinguished - and the net positive nature of it something we all eventually benefit from in the end.

Some alternate engine guys you may have heard of .... <g>
miyxjm.jpg
 
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Could a Porshe(sp) engine be used in an RV? Anyone tried? Aren't they simular to a Lyc? Is the cost more than a Lyc? I know nothing about alternative engines and have never seen anyone mention using a Porshe engine.

To answer without the usual chaff thrown in, yes the modern Porsche air and water cooled flat engines have excellent power to weight ratios and are very bulletproof. A bit pricey even good used from a wreck because they are in high demand for swaps into older chassis however. You will need a proper gearbox and I'm not aware of anyone who builds such a beast for these engines. Quite a stumbling block for most.

Make sure you get the supporting systems nailed (cooling, electrical, fuel, lubrication, gearbox, prop, etc.) as these are the things that doom most auto conversions- not the basic engines which are very well engineered and developed.

Be aware this is not as easy as it looks and it likely won't save anything over a Lyco if you count your time. It will take you longer to get into the air and longer to get bugs out of it most likely as well.

Not much in this hobby will give you more satisfaction than a successful DIY FF setup on the other hand nothing else can give you as much grief either if it does not go right. Do you homework, ask yourself what is important in the type of flying you will do, do you have the mechanical skills to do the engine and design/ fab work and is it worth the extra time it will take over a Lyco (maybe 150-300 extra hours).

If I can help in any other way, let me know.
 
Hey Ross - I know that Porsche put a lot of money into that engine, and it probably was more a question of production numbers and pure business decisions that caused it to go out of production (Big companies don't like to make small fortunes out of big ones - the story of aviation). My question is - did they have a good gearbox design that could be used by folks today? I'd think that a company with their resources probably spent a fair amount in engineering - that could be a real "sleeper" engine for the AE crowd.

I'd almost forgotten abut the Porsche Mooney until reading this thread - interesting stuff!

Paul
 
Was used in Mooney's for a while. Did not work out.

For most people (not all), an alternative engine is a good way to piddle your life away while your friends are out flying (based on observation and reports.)

There are some good installs, but many expensive disappointments.

Fly or piddle-your choice.

isn't that the same thing as build an rv (piddle) or go buy a flying one?
 
PFM

This wiki link covers the basics well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_PFM_3200

The engine was well received by the media and most owners liked them. Far more refined than the other offerings of the day. The stories I read put its demise at the feet of the new management who came in during hard times, looked at the costs/ benefits and growing concern with US aviation liability cases and said nein.

Had Porsche stayed in the game until today, well maybe Lycoming and Continental would have serious competition. It would have never been a cheaper alternative however. I think you have to at least salute Porsche for bringing it to market even if it was unlikely to ever be a money maker for them. They did it because it was a diverse project, technically different and a great engineering exercise to keep people sharp and challenged. Might have had some good technical spin offs for them. Certainly leading edge at that time.

The last sentence rings true. I read stories where Porsche would go to great lengths to remove all engines from use- something like Beechcraft did with the Starships. I think all support ended in 2005 or so.
 
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The new air/water cooled Porsche motors are not close at all to bullet proof.
They have major issues with the intermediate shaft bearings seizing up causing catastrophic failures. This is very common on these motors. I wouldn?t want one in a car, let alone an aircraft.

The oil cooled 3.6 motor from 1995-98 would be a far safer starting point. Probably 3 times the cost of the new motors but worth it. To do a Porsche motor right, the cost would be as much as an IO-360 if not more.
 
Porsche Flugmotor

I flew one of the Mooneys with the PFM motor in the late 80s. It was smooth, sophisticated (single lever control) and very complex. The performance was not remarkable, almost the same output as an IO 360 and considerably heavier. At the time the cost was about twice that of a Lycoming. As Russ said, an interesting engineering exercise that could have been developed, but Porsche clearly tired of losing money on the project. Not to mention the perceived liability issue.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Doug, says it best.

Thank goodness there are true gearheads out there that live and breathe the alternate stuff. Who?s to say in 20 years we won?t have the most rock solid alt. engine install you could dream of (thanks to the hard work of a few).

Not my bag, per say, but I?m glad there are those doing it.

I couldn't agree more with the statement above. I am in a unique situation where I have been able to observe friends develop Subaru & Chevrolet engines over the course of my build. I have watched the triumphs & also the failures of what works & what doesn't. The dedication and passion these people have is dauntless. I truly believe in years to come these alt. engines will be common place, considered very reliable and economical. I salute the tireless efforts of these pioneers. We will all benefit from this, we should try to support & encourage this goal.

I have been ask many times being so close to this operation, "Why didn't you go with an alt. engine?' The simple truth is I started into aviation too old in life. I would have been just too far behind the power curve to build a plane, learn how to fly and tinker with an installation like this (way over my head).

It's not a matter of right or wrong, better or worse, when not if. The time is coming very near.....I want to thank all the pioneers in this field, I respect your efforts and talent.
 
Flown Porsche PFM2500 for years

I had rather different experiences with the Porsche PFM2500:

Our club had a DR400 RP with a PFM 2500 Porsche engine for glider towing for many years. I know that some people had trouble with the engine. But we used it for 15 years, doing 200-250 hours a year[/U][/U] and never had a major problem! Glider towing is one of the hardest usages for an aircraft engine I can imagine: Towing the glider with best climb rate and descending afterwards as fast as possible, in a 10 minutes rhythm. Traditional aircraft engines normally don?t reach their TBO with this kind of usage...

We finally replaced the Porsche engine in 2003 after prices for spare parts rised by 100%. Porsche wanted to have their engines off the market. They even bought us back our engine for a very good price with 500 hours left and financed part of the major alteration to a Lycoming O-540. There remain some flying Porsches, but most I know gave the engine back. I don't know if somebody jumped in the spare parst issue, because Porsche seized the spare parts business. They wanted close down the issue and have no more flying engines around. The remaining flying engines were regarded as a risk by the Porsche managment. It could have beeen negative promotion for the sports car company if anything happened with one of their engines.

We finally had even a stronger (but even heavier) tow plane. But we had to say goodbye to the single lever handling, the ecomical fuel consumption (rised by 30% with the Lycoming) and the fast sink rate for the descent (due to shock cooling of the Lycoming).

For us the Porsche engine was the best engine we have ever seen. ...and it has prooven it's reliability! (at least in our case)
 
I am surprised how many here have flown this engine despite the low production numbers. Interesting and thank you for posting!

I was not aware of of problems with the later water cooled head versions. How widespread is this? I have many, many friends who own late 911 type cars for track use and nobody has ever mentioned these problems.

I think the earlier air cooled versions would be better choices for aviation anyway due to higher availability and simplicity. They are certainly very tough. I have helped update many to EFI from CIS and update turbo systems and see these absolutely beat on in track use with stellar reliability.
 
It's good but not quite there

I have thought about this quite a bit. I have a 2002 Boxster that I thought would make an excellent aircraft engine. It is a flat 6 with 350 HP and no fan belts to break. On the move to TX from CA I drove it continually for 10hrs a day at highway speeds (okay, a little over the posted limit). No issues and it had better gas mileage when running at those speeds.

BUT, I have had a few issues come up that I would never want to see in the air. (valve broke and the intake ingested oil) Also the gearbox can?t really handle the power. And this is ?German engineered?. There have always been problems the mating of the engine and the gear box. It?s power band is somewhere between 4.5K and 5.5K, so not really prop speeds. And it ain?t cheap to keep running.

Although I would consider it almost bullet proof, I would not want to fly behind it.

I love the guys who live to tinker. I am one of them, but not on engines. I would love to see someone build a aircraft engine with all the modern efficiencies (easy start, computer controlled, electric mags) But I guess we can get that now in a Lyco.
 
I own a couple BMWs but have historically owned exclusively Japanese cars for the last 25 years. I must agree that the phrase "German Engineering" is a double edged sword. Some of it is beautiful and functional, other parts are just beautiful. Germans are human and humans make mistakes. I find many parts of German cars to be very complicated for the intended task and sometimes complicated solutions are not reliable ones.

I found an interesting link on the IMS failures here so there are solutions: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

Certainly looks like the earlier air cooled engines are the way to go.
 
Honda - aircraft piston engine

Some years back Honda had a 4 cyl piston engine at Sun-N-Fun. I think there was talk about a partnership with Continental but a year or so later the HondaJet appeared so I think they shelved the piston engine. Probably looked at the market and didn't see the high volume they like to sell at. Now if Honda had marketed that engine at a reasonable cost I would have gone that route. Think about all the Civics on the road.
 
Ross,

Can't for the life of me find your rv-10 project on the racetech website anymore....how is it coming?

JC
 
Honda

Yes, and IIRC it was a 4 cyl 360" like a lyco but with liquid cooling. Would be good to know their reason for bowing out. Would have been a tiny market for them but they are known for doing "engineering exercises"

.
 
Honda Aircraft Engine

If it's the same engine they displayed at Oshkosh, I've got some photos of it and they may be in the archives. I remember they had been flying one of their engines in a Cessna 337 with a standard Continental in the pusher position and the Honda engine in the tractor (front) position.

I was looking forward to their production of this engine, but it was not to be.

P.S. I just looked in the archives and there is a link to my photos I made of the Honda engine at Oshkosh. However, the link is now dead because my clubphoto account has expired. I'll have to take a look on my old home PC to find the photos...if anyone is interested.
 
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M?nich Air Museum

When I lived in M?nich I went to the German Air Museum just outside M?nich, twice. They don't have much from the war; understandable. The British Air Museum in Duxford has more German Luftwaffe planes.

They have a Porsche airplane on display. Frankly, I was very surprised but realized it was the perfect application for their engine. The German Air Museum is worth a visit to provide perspective on WWII.

For me the most humorous part of the visit was the Red Baron display. In German "er hei?t der rote Baron."

Ch?z (my German name!)
 
porsche

Ivan Andersson, from somewhere in southern CA, put a 4 cyl Porsche engine in a Wittman Tailwind. This was an airplane that had flown with a Lyc. Ivan flew the airplane all over the west, it seemed to be very reliable. Jack Cox wrote an article about it in 1993in Sportsman Pilot. I last saw the airplane in 2002. It was, in my opinion, the best alternative engine conversion I have seen in that horsepower range. This was not in any way related to the Porsche engine used in the Mooney and others. I have heard that Ivan may be in the Big Bear area and I don't think the airplane has been active for 7-8 years
 
used lyc

Although I applaud those who pioneer the use of other engines, I think its not
the best way to go for getting your project flying with minimum "tinkering"

It may not save you money either.

I purchased a well documented used Lycoming for my -9A for $7000 (delivered).

450 hrs SMOH and came with all accessories.

I've ground tested it extensively (0.8 hr tach) and I can't find a fault.

IF I could run this thing for another 1500 hr and sell the core for $3500, the hourly cost would be about $2.33/hr - not bad really.

Heck, it might even go beyond 2000 hr with good maintenance.

That's alot of flying.

I guess I'll find out how my "theory" will work out because the FSDO is coming to my hanger to inspect my project - wish me luck:)

Dave
-9A
 
Porsche Engine

I have been racing a Porsche 914-6 (same engine as a 911) for 13 years and have learned how to build these engines with the help of an experienced Race Shop (JB Racing) for the required machine work and other items. I am also building an F1 Rocket which will use a "stock" Lycoming IO-540. The Porsche parts are astronomically expensive. Also, you would have to come up with some sort of Prop Speed Reduction Unit. This alone would be WAY beyond what a "regular" person could engineer or come up with by other means.
In my opinion, you will have a much more reliable and valuable airplane if you go with a regular old Lycosar. If you want to learn and save some money over buying new... buy an old used engine and rebuild it with the help of an experienced Engine Shop.
My .02 Tony
 
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