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Thunderbolt 540 engine options for SDSFI?

bluskydreamin

Active Member
For those that purchased a Thunderbolt 540 at OSH, Were you able to deduct the ignitions, FI, mech fuel pump and push rod from the standard build? I know you can't with the standard Lycoming purchase but the Thunderbolt staff at the show made it sound like this was no problem.

Just curious if this is really the case and T-bolt will be as flexible as the other engine builders going forward.

Thanks.
 
Yes, for the Thunderbolt engines you can spec it any way you want. When deleting items they will give you a credit.

Vic
 
Any difference between BPE540 with cold air and thunderbolt apart from bpe using 1st run core?

The BPE540 may use best available part(s) that was not manufactured by Lycoming.

All the Lycoming engines will be all new Lycoming parts with a roller cam.
 
Cold air

Any difference between BPE540 with cold air and thunderbolt apart from bpe using 1st run core?

I have thought a cold air induction setup would be nice too, I think it's around a $5k option from BPE. What would our options be for doing cold air induction on a thunderbolt?
 
BPE 540

I went with bpe540 partly because of using showplanes cowl and balanced engine ect. Don't know if thunderbolt will fit showplanes cowl. Another major work is to fit airflow aircon compressor. Have to chop the intake plenum away to make compressor fit. Also have to cnc new adapter bracket between fm200 and cold air sump that about 1/2 inch shorter. Bottom of showplanes cowl interfere with intake plenum. All major work but will be nice once done.
 
I have thought a cold air induction setup would be nice too, I think it's around a $5k option from BPE. What would our options be for doing cold air induction on a thunderbolt?

Lycoming has been working on new stuff. They already offer a C-model 390 with cold air and claim 215 HP. I'd call Jeff Schans if I wanted the latest info on factory 540 parts.

The primary reason to use a BPE manifold is the ability to bolt up a larger throttle body.
 
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Thanks for the great info everyone..

Ross - Are you saying that your system with RSA -10 TB cannot be used with the Lycoming vertical sump and regular vans cowling for the 540? I understand the potentially less than "best" even airflow with a vert sump vs other options.

Wondering if Vans is working on a horizontal sump cowling for the 10 like the other models? Really don't want to start jumping through the hoops for a show planes cowl, new spinner, etc. (even though the look pretty cool!)
 
Thanks for the great info everyone..

Ross - Are you saying that your system with RSA -10 TB cannot be used with the Lycoming vertical sump and regular vans cowling for the 540? I understand the potentially less than "best" even airflow with a vert sump vs other options.

Wondering if Vans is working on a horizontal sump cowling for the 10 like the other models? Really don't want to start jumping through the hoops for a show planes cowl, new spinner, etc. (even though the look pretty cool!)

To my knowledge, and let me say there are several different factory Lycoming sump/ intakes out there and I haven't seen all of them yet, all vertical sumps use an RSA-5 sized flange and hole. We supply a 60mm throttle body for these, same as used on most 4 cylinder Lycomings. This TB has a 56mm oulet hole, 60mm bore at the butterfly.

On a 260hp 540, this may offer some restriction and cost some hp at high rpm. Only a back to back dyno test would tell the story on that aspect. Looking at it another way though, it's probably less restrictive that the factory carb with the fuel nozzles and venturi in the airstream.

Most 540s we've supplied EFI for have gone with some form of horizontal induction and our 80mm TB. A number of these have dynoed at well over 275hp.

You just want to be sure it fits under whatever cowling you plan to use.



Here is our 60 and 80mm TBs for reference.
 
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Another option for the SDS 80mm TB on the standard updraft sump is to build an adapter. I turned a hunk of aluminum into this adapter in about an hour on my lathe:

21jnfxf.jpg


11ltuep.jpg
 
Another option for the SDS 80mm TB on the standard updraft sump is to build an adapter. I turned a hunk of aluminum into this adapter in about an hour on my lathe:

Mike, what is the diameter of the sump opening?
 
Dan,

My D4A5 sump is set up for the RSA-5 bolt pattern. What follows is a copy of my project log I have going on another forum:

... Shown below is the significant discontinuity in the size of the TB and sump.

25po5uf.jpg


Once again my ancient but reliable South Bend lathe makes a lot of aluminum chips

68h8pd.jpg


Here is the MDF template and the finished part.

2z7eijt.jpg


Its standing proud of the mount surface more than it needs to, but it is the same height as the tuned 300 hp sump I intend to use later. If it works out right, all the integration hardware I'm doing now will allow a direct swap with the new sump. And more importantly, there will be only one change (the sump), so I'll be able to tell if the change helps or hurts performance.

mtbll3.jpg


Another graphic display of the size difference between the sump and the TB. Obviously not ideal, but it should work for a while.

30kazgi.jpg
 
EFII

We have standard parts for the RSA-10 sumps (3 1/2" throat) for use with our 80mm throttle body. We have many high horsepower 540s (and the 8 cylinder Relentless NXT) running these parts.
We also have the correct size 65 mm throttle bodies and sump adapters for the RSA-5 size (2 3/8") sumps.

Robert Paisley
Over 400 aircraft equipped with EFII
 
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Think: NASCAR restrictor plate (Stock 540 sump)

Mike, what is the diameter of the sump opening?

Not big enough the 540 to breathe good at higher RPM - it seems to stop power at about 285hp. Sorry to tell you, but the fabled 300HP *stock sump* 540s do not exist.

A fella I knew way back when actually did a mod to increase the 540 sump inlet to more match the RSA-10 setup. He tested on a flow bench and got good results, but never proceeded - I think due to the fabrication & assembly SNAFUs. I thought it was a good idea for the 540 boys...danged if I can recall the HP claimed - SORRY!

As an aside, I did get to fly a Thunderbolt 540 a few weeks back - MOST amazing CHTs and EGT I have ever seen: they follow a straight line across the monitor at all power settings. Amazing. The intake looked alot like the Brand B sump and tubes...which produces a lot of torque...and MP...

Mike: if you can figure out how to enlarge that hole in the sump to fit the AFP cast elbow...your South Bend lathe will be very busy!:eek:

Best,
Mark
 
Dan,

I'm away from the shop, but I will put a caliper on my sump later today.

Mark (et,al)

This adapter was just a quick way to adapt the SDS parts and baseline the engine in its "stock" configuration. I know this sump is beyond help from an efficient airflow perspective. My plan all along is to change over to the much more elegant Lycoming 300 HP based sump.

We've discussed the potential improvements of one sump type vs another many times on this forum, so I intend to find out for myself. The SDS individual fuel trim will allow me to tune out any airflow imbalance in the stock updraft sump so that a swap to the "tuned" 300 HP version will validate any "true" change in performance.
 
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AHA!

Good news, Mike:

"My plan all along is to change over to the much more elegant Lycoming 300 HP based sump."

Outstanding!

Best, Mark
 
Dan,

The bore in my sump measures 2.255 diameter.

Mark,

Though my upgrade to the SDS EFI seems like a great time to move to the new sump configuration, I am interested in documenting the performance directly attributed to the EFI. I was able to chart the performance benefits from dual magnetos to the single SDS CPI, and then once again when I went dual CPI, so I think I have a pretty good handle on an ignition scheme optimized for my mission profile. I am hoping to take the same tack with the fuel side. Once I get that as far as practical then I can change the sump, optimize, document and compare. Follow on changes will be playing with induction and header tube length to see if I can find any hidden performance there. These kinds of changes would be really time consuming and expensive to accomodate with the mechanical fuel injection, but the SDS system will change with a few keystrokes.

All that said (and my reason for posting in this thread), the 80mm SDS TB on the stock updraft sump is unlikely to provide any benefits vs a RSA-5 sized version, but the big TB certainly wont hurt anything and is still shorter than the RSA-5 by quite a bit. It should easily fit in a stock RV-10 cowl.
 
Great info! always amazed to see the experiments going on in the field. I'm waiting for Jeff S. at Tbolt to get me a quote on their cold air sump option for the 540. Sounds like he is covered up with the OSH response and engine work.
 
IO-540 intake sump

I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
 
IO-540 intake sump

I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
 
I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
Tony,

I'm wondering the same thing - Will the stock Lycoming RSA-10 capable sump contact the -10's engine mount like the BPE offering? It is available with the Tbolt 540.
 
540 sump

I found out a few things that I wanted to share. I apologize but I don't have many answers for the RV-10 guys. My aircraft is an F1 Rocket. Our cowl is really snug! There are several options but they all have pros and cons. Just like everything! The RV-10 guys can almost certainly fit some of these on there aircraft more easily than we can. The sump off of the 300 HP Lycoming is the K1A5 sump. It is from the angle valve 540 and will bolt right on. Unfortunately, the 2 hole intake is on the back side not the front where we would want it. So, IMHO this is not a good solution for me. The BPE Cold air sump is about $4300 and is supposed to work really well. Unfortunately, it comes down about 3.5" more when the required new exhaust is added. This would require a cowl rework for my airplane and would kinda mess with "looks" a little because of the resulting bulbous bottom cowl. The Sky Dynamics setup is similar and costs even more depending on options. All 3 of these options would require a new exhaust and significant cowl rework.
The Raven Cold Air setup seems like a pretty good compromise. It keeps the stock sump as is but adds an air box on the bottom of the sump. Then, the tubes come from that new air box to the intake port. It is about $1895. You can specify 2 different sizes depending on the size fuel servo you want to use. Of course, the Raven sump also needs a new exhaust but this will supposedly fit under our stock cowl with no cowl rework needed.
The Raven setup would add around 4-5 lbs. The other options may save about 5 lbs. I have decided to just keep my stock sump and Vetterman exhaust for now. I am going to switch the 90 degree elbow that we all use to the Rambo Elbow made by Rod Bower. Also, I am going to switch from my Bendix RSA5 servo to the Airflow Performance FM200. My new engine is being built by Don George in Orlando and is going to get 9.0:1 pistons, and get balanced to within 1/2 gram (like Thunderbolt does). Because I had a failure of the Left Magneto drive bearing (old engine), I am going to put Ross Farnham's SDS CPI on the left side. For now, I'm going to keep a Bendix Mag on the Right side.
I'm hoping for around 275 HP with this setup. It's going to be way better than what I had!!! My old engine had 1 broken ring and 1 Intake lobe was worn way down. If you look at the top of your engine, you can see that each opposing cylinder Intake shares 1 lobe. This is for tighter packaging.
I am certain my old engine was not making full rated power.
Keep the shiny side up!!!
Tony
 
I have nothing great to add to this thread as of yet, but I can tell you where I am at in this process. On July 3rd I ordered a Thunderbolt YIO-540-EXP. 9.1:1 Compression, Roller Tappets, Dynamic Crank balancing, Static Balancing, Port & Polish, Cylinder Balancing. I also had them add the cold air setup they use on their 580 and 540 L1B5. I intend to put this into a RV-10 with a show planes cowling. I am not sure what is going to fit (and what is going to be in the way), but I should be able to tell you that in a couple of weeks. Show planes thinks the ColdAir setup will fit, but perhaps the air induction will needs some re-work. We shall see shortly...
 
There have been 3 RV10s completed locally here with the BPE intake, SDS EFI 80mm throttle body and ShowPlanes cowling/ cold air system.
 
There have been 3 RV10s completed locally here with the BPE intake, SDS EFI 80mm throttle body and ShowPlanes cowling/ cold air system.

Ross,
I'm a couple of years from ordering an engine but trying to learn about engine options. Does this combination require a different exhaust as well?
 
Interesting reading through my old posts in this thread now that I have the benefit of actually flying the airplane and a few more years under my belt.

Some random updates relevant to this thread:

My engine is still configured as described in the first part of the thread - stock updraft sump with a machined adapter to fit the 80 MM SDS throttle body. On the Ly-Con dyno it made 336 HP at 2700 RPM. While the numbers may be suspect - my airplane will now out pull all my other Rocket buddies. Did not do that with the factory built engine.

A buddy is building a RV-10 with an angle valve and even the rear facing sump with a 180 degree adapter (to face the servo to the front) fits the stock cowl with ease. That cowl is plenty deep.

I have purchased two angle valve "tuned" 540 sumps off eBay and after looking at them for years I am leaning toward simply cutting the plenum off one and building a new one. This leaves the oil pan and mount ears intact, but I can do whatever I want with the servo location and plennum volume. The other "easy" option is to fabricate a new lid for the existing plenum and provide the servo mounting orientation that fits my airframe. If I had a -10, I'd probably simply cut a hole in the stock lid and hang the TB in an updraft configuration. And BTW, I have the "less desirable" rear mount servo versions of the sumps. I paid a whopping $50 bucks for each of them (and free shipping!). I realize this level of surgery is pretty far from the "plug and play" many builders are looking for, but this is offered to provide food for thought to those who like to experiment.
 
Ross,
I'm a couple of years from ordering an engine but trying to learn about engine options. Does this combination require a different exhaust as well?

I don't think the stock exhaust will fit this combination. We used the Custom Aircraft Exhaust 33279. Motor mount might have to be modified (the old style definitely did) to fit the BPE sump.

I would look at the James cowl too. Don't know if it will work with A/C and/or the extended hub Hartzell composite, but I can verify that the modifications required to the dual intake of the Showplanes cowl are a lot of work IF you have A/C.
 
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