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Homeland Security Ramp Check

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HDDAHL

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I hangar my airplane at a "country" airport in Ridgeland, SC that has no fences and only signs forbidding entry to unauthorized individuals.

Today I was approached at my hangar by a Homeland Security officer who requested a ramp check from me; license, medical certificate. He did not ask to see my logbooks. He wrote my information down, I have no idea what he intends to do with it.

Has this happened to anyone else? Does Homeland Security have the authority to do ramp checks? He actually did not know that I am a pilot except by asking me.

Doug Dahl RV-9A, RV-12 (31 hrs.)
 
Just wondering...

Did you get his name or see his badge or official identification? As a federal employee myself, one of the first things I would be interested in seeing is whether he is a federal employee himself or a contractor to the U.S. Government. (Not that it would make much difference, but I'd like to know.)

Also, did you just show him your license and medical certificate, etc., or did you hand it to him? I would prefer to just show it to him myself. Seems like the famous Bob Hoover made the mistake of handing his license to an FAA man about 15 years ago.

I am based at a non-towered airport in Alabama, and I was approached inside the fence last week because I was sitting in my truck. The guy who asked me what I was doing worked for the FBO. As it turned out, I was waiting for an airplane to be moved into a hangar around the corner (where he could not see) so I could drive up to the exit gate.

That was about two days after the three boys crashed a twin about an hour from here last week, so I'm guessing the FBO was at a higher awareness. Whether they had any directions from the government or not, I don't know.

I'd be interested if anyone else has had a similar experience to yours.
 
Reply

He did show me ID and gave me his card. His name is Barron Wilkins, works out of Charleston SC.
 
I would ask him when did it become regulation to have a pilot's license and medical certificate to be in my hangar...
 
Ramp Check

I believe that if he did not see you land he had no right to anything other than any legitimate form of identification.
 
Just to be clear myself, didn't the 9/11 changes (Patriot Act) say we are now required to show our credentials to any law enforcement officer upon request? If I remember right, that would probably include any of the alphabet agencies that issues an ID, badge and weapon. I might be wrong, just a random thought, Dan
 
See FAR part 61

...Also, did you just show him your license and medical certificate, etc., or did you hand it to him? I would prefer to just show it to him myself....
Click to expand...

See ? 61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate. No such letter given - no certificate surrender. (Note - does not apply to a medical certificate or a driver's license.)

"Are you with the FAA? No? Sorry, get a warrant."
Click to expand...

See ? 61.51(i) Pilot logbooks - they have a right to ask for the information.
 
guccidude1 said:
Just to be clear myself, didn't the 9/11 changes (Patriot Act) say we are now required to show our credentials to any law enforcement officer upon request? If I remember right, that would probably include any of the alphabet agencies that issues an ID, badge and weapon. I might be wrong, just a random thought, Dan
Click to expand...

If you're not committing aviation, there's no requirement to have a certificate, medical, etc on you. If you didn't drive to the airport, you shouldn't need any form of ID (assuming it's an un-fenced, non TSA airport).
 
Ramp checks are legal

Here's a good article from AOPA on ramp checks...

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060120ramp.html

They are legal, and from the brief description provided, this one was accomplished quickly, correctly and painlessly. You could refuse to comply, and maybe nothing would come of it. Then again, maybe the inspector would 'observe' something unsafe about your airplane or hangar, and try to make an example out of you.

As a professional pilot, I've had FAA in our jumpseat, and they always ask to see license, medical, even when they're just traveling somewhere. I've found them to be very polite and professional, just like most of us are when doing our jobs.

Just another guys' opinion, it's worth every penny you paid for it.


DD
 
Beer30? said:
Here's a good article from AOPA on ramp checks...

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060120ramp.html

They are legal, and from the brief description provided, this one was accomplished quickly, correctly and painlessly. You could refuse to comply, and maybe nothing would come of it. Then again, maybe the inspector would 'observe' something unsafe about your airplane or hangar, and try to make an example out of you.

As a professional pilot, I've had FAA in our jumpseat, and they always ask to see license, medical, even when they're just traveling somewhere. I've found them to be very polite and professional, just like most of us are when doing our jobs.

Just another guys' opinion, it's worth every penny you paid for it.


DD
Click to expand...

According to the OP's post, the guy was from Homeland Security, not the FAA. Does Homeland Security have the authority to conduct ramp checks?
 
FAR 61.3(l) specifically requires you to show your certificates upon request to federal law enforcement officials and TSA officials. I think TSA is part of Homeland Security? I should know this because....
I'm the first line of defense! CFI's are required to take an annual Security Awareness Training class. Anyone feel better, knowing that I'm on the job?
 
David Paule said:
This might be of interest as well.
http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articl..._id=130111epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan&cmp=ePlt:Phto

And did you pick up on the wee bit of extortion there, too?

Dave
Click to expand...

"Fleming waited outside the courtroom Aug. 21 as his case went before the judge. When his attorney returned and said the case would be dismissed if he agreed not to take any legal action against Darlington County law enforcement, he said, he reluctantly agreed."


That is disturbing and depressing.
 
When I was at Yellowstone a couple of years ago, Homeland Security requested ramp access from the FBO to go inspect our planes parked on the ramp by the camping area. They included 3 RVs and a Skyhawk. The FBO denied the request unless escorted by the airport manager. They agreed and inspected our planes, logged the tail# & took photos of all the aircraft.
The FBO informed us all of the incident after the fact.
Not sure what ever became of the inspection, but later that night the FBO informed us they would be open late to burn sage to rid the FBO of all the evil spirits.:eek:
They're not too crazy about the government up there.
 
guccidude1 said:
Just to be clear myself, didn't the 9/11 changes (Patriot Act) say we are now required to show our credentials to any law enforcement officer upon request? If I remember right, that would probably include any of the alphabet agencies that issues an ID, badge and weapon. I might be wrong, just a random thought, Dan
Click to expand...

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know (an I will test if necessary), there must be reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is being, has been, or about to be committed for you to be required to show or give ID to any law enforcement agency.

There are exceptions, such as: the driver of a vehicle; but the passengers may still refuse. Similarly, I would suspect after flying you would be required to show ID if ramp checked, but not if you are hanging out in the hangar.
 
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jcaplins said:
I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know (an I will test if necessary), there must be reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is being, has been, or about to be committed for you to be required to show or give ID to any law enforcement agency. (There are exceptions, such as: the driver of a vehicle; but the passengers may still refuse)
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I agree with this. Doug (the original poster) stated that the officials didn't even know he was a pilot prior to speaking with him. It sounds like they might have been on a fishing expedition or something.
 
TSA "agents" are NOT law enforcement agents. They have no authority to detain, search or arrest you.

If the FAR says you must show your license to any law enforcement agent, fine...but that doesn't include TSA agents, since they're NOT law enforcement agents.

(Note that other officers of different agencies within Homeland Security *are* law enforcement, such as CBP, etc. But not TSA).
 
jcaplins said:
I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know (an I will test if necessary), there must be reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is being, has been, or about to be committed for you to be required to show or give ID to any law enforcement agency.

There are exceptions, such as: the driver of a vehicle; but the passengers may still refuse. Similarly, I would suspect after flying you would be required to show ID if ramp checked, but not if you are hanging out in the hangar.
Click to expand...

Correct...
 
Flying Scotsman said:
TSA "agents" are NOT law enforcement agents. They have no authority to detain, search or arrest you.

If the FAR says you must show your license to any law enforcement agent, fine...but that doesn't include TSA agents, since they're NOT law enforcement agents.

(Note that other officers of different agencies within Homeland Security *are* law enforcement, such as CBP, etc. But not TSA).
Click to expand...

The original poster never said the guy was a TSA agent. He said he was from Homeland Security. We have at least two Homeland Security officers in my area that I've met. They are certainly law enforcement officers, badge guns and all. Personally, I don't have an issue with them asking for my ID if I'm on the airport. I happen to be on a secured airport, so the circumstances are a little different, but I'd rather know that they people on the field are supposed to be there.

That said, I'm very respectful of our rights as citizens to privacy and our freedom from unauthorized searches, etc.
 
I'm not a lawyer either, but the OP said his airport has a sign "authorized persons only". My guess is that gives them the right to ask for proof you're authorized to be there.
 
Had to deal with several myself. As far as authority, I thinks it's like the IRS asking you for your hunting license.. Just as hard to prove as disprove their authority. I think the "Tactics" taught in Homeland Security School do not jive well at most GA airports. Unfortunate consequence of govt well meaning knee jerk reaction going in the wrong direction.
Most GA airports have the best most economical security already, the users.
 
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This is from the AOPA link:

"The regulations require that your pilot and medical certificates be readily available, and you should be willing to show them."

What does that mean? I am not going flying and am just at the hangar, maybe checking tire pressure. I have to have my license and medical certificate with me?

That link does not address police, FBI, Customs folks, TSA, etc.
 
jcaplins said:
"Fleming waited outside the courtroom Aug. 21 as his case went before the judge. When his attorney returned and said the case would be dismissed if he agreed not to take any legal action against Darlington County law enforcement, he said, he reluctantly agreed."


That is disturbing and depressing.
Click to expand...

I'd still be in the clink, eating mush and beans.

No "DEAL", except the one that says I'm about to re-retire a rich man thanks to the taxpayers in this so-called County. Thanks, jerks, with the economy the way it is, I definitely need a few extra bucks in my jean.

Hot Head Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Walt said:
Hmmm, sure feels like I'm being seached when I fly commercial :confused:
Click to expand...

Because you gave up your rights and agreed to allow someone to search you. That does not mean TSA agents are law enforcement officers, nor that they have the authority to search you *without your consent*.

A. They're not law enforcement
B. Even law enforcement officers need "specific, articulable facts" which constitute "reasonable suspicion" that you have committed or are about to commit a crime before they can search you (outside of a "Terry stop" quick pat-down for weapons).
 
craigvince said:
The original poster never said the guy was a TSA agent. He said he was from Homeland Security. We have at least two Homeland Security officers in my area that I've met. They are certainly law enforcement officers, badge guns and all. Personally, I don't have an issue with them asking for my ID if I'm on the airport. I happen to be on a secured airport, so the circumstances are a little different, but I'd rather know that they people on the field are supposed to be there.

That said, I'm very respectful of our rights as citizens to privacy and our freedom from unauthorized searches, etc.
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You're right...he did say "Homeland Security", not TSA, it was subsequent posters who mentioned TSA.

That said, I don't believe there's such a thing as a "Homeland Security Officer" (although, I could be quite wrong), but rather agents and officers wh work for departments and agencies *within* DHS (that is, CBP, ICE, TSA, USCG, etc.). So if someone said they're a "Homeland Security Officer", my question would be "what agency are you with and are you a *law enforcment officer*?"

Note that FAA is under DOT, FBI under Justice, and so on. I don't think the title of "Homeland Security Officer" exists. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure.

But all that notwithstanding, TSA agents (the guys in blue shirts at airports) are NOT, most definitely NOT, law enforcement agents and have no authority to search or detain you without your consent.

So I'd be interested to know just what agency the OP's "Homeland Security Agent" worked for, as well as any purported requirement that one show him or her one's pilot's license (assuming they're not an *actual* law enforcement agent).

(And to correct another earlier post of mine...some states do have "stop and identify" laws which require only that you provide your name to a *law enforcement officer*, while in others, no such law exists...but stop and identify laws are constitutional. There is no requirement to provide any license or paperwork as part of such identification, however).
 
craigvince said:
\We have at least two Homeland Security officers in my area that I've met. They are certainly law enforcement officers, badge guns and all.\
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A badge and a gun does not a law enforcement officer make. Security guards have badges and guns, and they certainly have no authority to detain, search or arrest anyone.

Again, DHS includes *departments* or *agencies* whose employees *may* be law enforcement officers, but not necessarily (e.g., TSA agents).
 
Be careful with Homeland Security/TSA

During my very limited time as an FAA Flight Safety Inspector (hated it) I learned the actual limited 'power' of the FAA. The FAA is an 'administration'. And while they can make your life harder, they do not have real authority to stop and apprehend you. The TSA however is an Agency. They have power. Think of them like the IRS, lots more powr than you can imagine. As an inspector, if we saw something unsafe, we would tell the pilot he shoud not continue in that behavior, however, the pilot was free to go and do what he wanted, sometimes as we watched, realizing that lawyer/legal action might/would follow hime AFTER the event. That was our recourse. An extremely tail heavy corporate jet comes to mind.....

If we saw something that looked dangerous but the pilot would not comply with our request, we called the TSA. The TSA has the authority to stop you forcefully. and they would arrive on scene and that plane/person did not move. There are contract help and then REAL TSA agents. If you are on airport property, they have jusrisdiction.

If on an airport, not in an airplane, and not showing or willing to show your ID... there thought is 'what are you doing at an airport, or on airport property, are you a potential terrorist'???? You will be questioned, and if necessary apprehended. Debating whether he or she has the legal authority will prove to be very painful...they will win in the end.

I know this sounds very un-American pioneering spirit but it's the way it is right now post-911, and not scheduled to improve anytime soon.

My advice, just be civil, don't be arguementative, show your ID and move on. Some can be more overbearing than others. The windmill is not worth charging. I'm on the other side of the fence again now and have been ramp checked and jumpseated numerous times. Yah, sometimes annoying, but not worth getting a profile picture over. The guy who flew with me last night was actually very pleasant.

Dos Centavos
 
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Under what legal authority can a TSA "agent" detain you? Again, unless they are a designated *law enforcement officer* (or "peace officer"), they have no authority to "detain" you (and even then, they will need reasonable suspicion...the Constitution still applies, even to pilots).

Just being an employee of an agency isn't enough...there are plenty of people, many here, who work for various agencies and who have zero legal authority to detain persons or execute searches...they aren't law enforcement officers.

They might bully you, intimidate you, threaten you...but they cannot arrest you, detain you or search you (without you giving them permission to do so).

I just read a GAO report to Congress on federal law enforcement officers...guess what? Other than federal air marshalls, TSA doesn't have any.

Per the Constitution and the courts, only law enforcement officers can forcibly detain someone, and only with reasonable suspicion.

That's why TSA agents at airports call for local LEOs to intervene if they feel someone should be detained...because TSA *can't* detain them.

Would I cooperate with a TSA agent? Probably, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to help him, nor give up my civil rights. And a request for ID, based on nothing at all, is not going to coerce me into doing so. If the "agent" didn't call for some law enforcement, and he tried to detain me, then *I* would be the one calling the cops (and my lawyer).

FAA requests for license, medical, etc.? Absolutely I'd provide them when asked. Local cops? Sure, that's in the FARs. TSA? No way.
 
As a matter of fact, Steve, FAR 61 explicitly mentions TSA personel along with law enforcement officials, as those to whom you must show your certificates.
 
BobTurner said:
As a matter of fact, Steve, FAR 61 explicitly mentions TSA personel along with law enforcement officials, as those to whom you must show your certificates.
Click to expand...

OK, had to look that one up..

It's in 61.3...

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.
 
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az_gila said:
Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph
Click to expand...
Ok ... but none of these are required to sit in your hangar...
 
az_gila said:
OK, had to look that one up..

It's in 61.3...

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.
Click to expand...

Well, fair enough...I stand corrected on that point! So if a TSO asks for my ID, then I'd show it to them.

Thanks for the info...
 
So let's consider the hypothetical case, or not-so-hypothetical case in my situation, where you don't have said ID/logbooks/etc. I occasionally ride my bike to the airport. Sometimes I bring my wallet, sometimes not- especially when I'm not planning to fly. I'm an active cyclist, sometimes I ride at my lunch hour, and will swing by my hangar on errands. Do I have to go home and get it? Do I get arrested or cited for being on an airport, let along my hangar, without all my pilot-related paperwork?

I suppose that, by extension, a Homeland Security agent could position him/herself on a street running past an airport and demand that all passers by produce ID.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that citing FARs is one thing, but what happens in the real world?
 
That was news to me as well. If a TSA fruitie asked me for my pilots certificate, I would have just flipped him off and walked away!

Flying Scotsman said:
Well, fair enough...I stand corrected on that point! So if a TSO asks for my ID, then I'd show it to them.

Thanks for the info...
Click to expand...
 
Don't you need legal authority to work on an airplane. I remember getting a stern talking to from my flight school when I was caught changing the oil on my airplane. I only had a student pilot certificate, which does not give the authority to do any owner maintenance. With experimental don't you either need your PPL or repairmans certificate to even be adding air to the tires? Therefore wouldn't officials be within their "legal" rights to ask to see license even if you are not flying but are just working in the hangar?
 
Greenley said:
Don't you need legal authority to work on an airplane. I remember getting a stern talking to from my flight school when I was caught changing the oil on my airplane. I only had a student pilot certificate, which does not give the authority to do any owner maintenance. With experimental don't you either need your PPL or repairmans certificate to even be adding air to the tires? Therefore wouldn't officials be within their "legal" rights to ask to see license even if you are not flying but are just working in the hangar?
Click to expand...

Nope! There are no requirements to perform maintenance on an experimental amateur-built aircraft.
And the repairman certificate only authorizes you to sign off the condition inspection. It has nothing to do with maintenance.
 
az_gila said:
OK, had to look that one up..

It's in 61.3...

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.
Click to expand...


Still ambiguous; with that "authorized representative" in there. Who is authorized to demand ID, and how do we know they are authorized, and who authorizes them?

"The Administrator"... that sounds ominous.
 
Source: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.3

Beginning of text:

"Sec. 61.3

Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

[(a) Pilot certificate. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person--

(1) Has a pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used; and]"

Discussion: Frankly I cannot tell from this format what is a higher level statement. I am assuming that what I took from the beginning applies to the section (l) that discusses people asking for pilot related ID. If that is true, then the part about people asking for ID only applies if you are acting as a crewmember. If true, then law enforcement/TSA folks have no authority to ask for pilot related ID if you are hanging out, working on the plane, etc. (Obviously opinion)

Otherwise, they could ask for your pilot related ID while at Walmart shopping, running, watching TV, etc.
 
Well what can I say? I have been flying for the past 40 years in this great country of ours. I have watched uncontrolled airspace dwindle, no fly zones, tfr's tethered balloons, subdivisions on the end of runways, more controlled airspace etc. To the untrained eye, it appears that someone somewhere is trying to take all of the fun out of flying and make it as though we shouldn't be flying for fun. Guess its the sign of the times, soon we will have to stay out of the way of drones or get a free meal and a cot, or maybe get shot down, get the third degree interrogation by a preppy with a badge. I for one will be flying and smiling until they pry that control stick off of my cold dead fingers :cool:

Bird
 
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