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Perfect Three Point Landing

n5lp

fugio ergo sum
I'm not a regular watcher but probably catch a part of "Wheel of Fortune" a couple of times a year while cooking or something. Tonight one of the answers was "Perfect Three Point Landing." Wow! What an anachronistic phrase to still be hanging around. Maybe there is a reason.

We all know that this can only occur with a tailwheel type aircraft and those are almost gone. Ag planes and many bush planes still have tailwheels but observation suggests that those people mostly don't favor three pointers. Even in the RV community only some favor three pointers. I am one of those.

Has anyone ever hear the term "Perfect Two Point Landing?" I haven't. It just isn't that challenging. All you have to do is be lined up with the centerline and have a low rate of descent and NOT make a "Three Point Landing." Many people like that. As for me I enjoy the challenge of having those things right and also having the deck angle exactly right and the sideways drift at zero.

This weekend I was flying a very distinguished scientist in the area he is the world expert on. Now that is satisfying enough but it happened that this late Summer morning landing turned out to be one of those rare ones when all three wheels slowly accelerate. The very non-pilot commented on it with words something like "very nicely done." Usually I discount all non-pilot comments but this time he was right and it was really really satisfying.

I did have to tell him what a rare occurrence this sort of landing is. Boy what fun it is to keep trying for those rare ones though.
 
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One day a few years ago, I was out doing takeoffs & landings in the 170B on the family farm grass strip, mixing wheel landings and three-pointers. Just once, in the flare (this one was a three point), I first hear the grass hitting the mains--a gentle whisssh--and then, without even the slightest bump, the noise of the wheels rolling along the ground. After that one, I quit for the day. I haven't been able to do one quite like it since.

- John
 
Congratulations on bagging (another) one Larry! Perfect...TRULY Perfect....three-pointers are like a pitcher's "Perfect Game". You don't get very many!

And yes, they sure feel good when they happen. I think most of mine have been in Cubs on grass. They just seem to go with three-pointers...

Paul
 
Very cool Larry! Now when are you planning your next one?

The only one I've ever had where I stalled just as all three wheels started rolling and barely felt my transition from flying to rolling was the day after my tailwheel endorsement. (seriously!) I had done about 30 landing in the previous two days and it was my first day solo in a tailwheel. (RV-6) It was at 21D and I'll never forget it...It's been downhill ever since. :rolleyes:

- Peter
 
There are some exceptions..

My Air Tractor weighs 3800# empty and flies at 8,000# or more:eek: The landing gear handles the loaded airplane fine but is oh...so..stiff empty!

Unless we do perfect three-pointers, it really slams around. The engine is about 10...12' ahead of me and that long arm really stresses the motor mount if I bounce, so most all of us wheel them on...it's just so much more of a gaurantee than a three-pointer.

When I flew in the B-17 Liberty Belle last year, I was amazed at the beautiful and consistent three-pointers her pilot made and I said so. He said, "Oh, she's a big ol' pussycat...easy to three-point!" His typical...aw shucks humble response, when, in fact, he was a great stick!

Best,
 
Do Ozzies have Kangaroos in their back yards

Watch a Kangaroo..........

Its a little off topic but....

I always say "look this isn't the movies you know..."

Yet I live 20 minutes from our second largest city and I go for a run most days of the week through a park and find our hop happy friends checking me out as I run past.

So maybe there is some truth to it.
 
Perfect Three Pointer

Larry, I agree with your point of view. I'm one of those older guys who learned to fly and got my PPL in "Tail Dragger". A Cessna 120 to be exact. Striving for and making that perfect landing every time is one of those "Lifes Little Pleasures.
Charlie, RV-7
 
I love those spool up 3 pointers that are just plane cool to experience and hard to describe. I think I have had about 5 of them in my airplane.

The first ride I gave my other RV friend with an RV6A ended with one of those landings. He must think I am a super stick...too bad I have not had one since and that was almost a year ago. :confused:
 
Flying the -9 I have to say, they don't come easy. I have experienced a few, and oh so sweet they are. Mostly though, landing the -9 in a 3 point attitude is more like landing a bucking bronco. Only tamed by planting the stick in your crotch as soon as you are within survival distance to the runway.
 
How hard can it be?

I love a perfect 3-pointer, especially when I have a passenger with me.

I learned to fly powered aircraft in my Cessna 140, which can be a challenge to land consistently with its spring gear. Interestingly, I have found it almost impossible to land tailwheel first in this aircraft. A perfect 3-pointer happens at a full stall with full up elevator. Getting the altitude, speed, and control deflection to hit the mark at the same instant isn't easy. I almost always 3-point this bird, but doing it without a little bounce is truly a challenge.

In contrast, my RV4 is easy to land tailwheel first, even with the long gear. In fact, a full stall touchdown probably has the tailwheel on the ground with a foot of air under the mains. To me, this makes ideal 3-pointers impossible, because you have to touch down well above a full stall. But I have found that this residual airspeed makes it easier to achieve consistent, smooth landings.

With 13 hours on the airplane, I haven't quite perfected the technique, but chipping away at it has been rewarding. Overall, the tailwheel RVs seem to have very docile landing and ground handling characteristics.

M
 
Agree with OP. I think a perfect 3-pointer is more challenging to pull off than a perfect wheelie, since the wheelie doesn's require precise airspeed/attitude control at touchdown, just descent rate. The 3-pointer requires both, and they must happen at exactly the same time. In several thousand tailwheel landings, I can count on one hand the virtually perfect 3-pointers I've done, and I very rarely do wheelies.
 
I had a long conversation with me CFI about this yesterday....I love 3 point landings and prefer them over any wheel landings every day! (must be all the time I have on my Pitts which is a mandatory 3 pointers)

here is a proud sequence this past Sunday!

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Giles202KLKR062611266.jpg
 
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what exactly is a 3-point landing? :)

Something that few of us who drive RV-8s will ever know :D

EDIT: My very first 3 landings ever in an RV-8 were 3-point, but I had the owner in the back seat, and they really weren't that bad... but since then I've only done wheel landings.
 
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Something that those of us who drive RV-8s will never know :D

My only ride in the backseat of an RV-8 had the pilot doing a perfect three pointer. Seemed just like a Cub...you just gotta get the stick nearly all the way back unlike most planes which will land a good bit tailwheel first if you do this. What's the big deal about 3-pointing an -8 with a passenger? Never fly with pax? I though they were reason for investing so much in that extra seat. :)
 
Something that those of us who drive RV-8s will never know :D

Despite performing one "perfect" 3 pointer in the -8 (and discounting it because it was an accident) I used to think that way up until yesterday evening. Practiced these a bunch and got it down pretty good. (of course, now I will likely loose my ability to wheel it on...). With power, it's not so bad.
 
My only ride in the backseat of an RV-8 had the pilot doing a perfect three pointer. Seemed just like a Cub...you just gotta get the stick nearly all the way back unlike most planes which will land a good bit tailwheel first if you do this. What's the big deal about 3-pointing an -8 with a passenger? Never fly with pax? I though they were reason for investing so much in that extra seat. :)

You had an experienced RV-8 pilot who had explored the full envelope of his airplane.

The airplane is extremely pitch sensitive with an aft CG, and it is very easy to make a tail wheel-first touchdown in this condition. I know of some very hard landings made by pilots who took it for granted that they could fly anything in any condition, and got surprised - once you have practiced it (like anything), it becomes more natural. But you get much more consistent results in the -8 (especially with a passenger) with a wheelie.

If you need to land short, use a three-point...with care!

Paul
 
You had an experienced RV-8 pilot who had explored the full envelope of his airplane.

This is true...and I'm sure he had explored the envelope well, but I mainly think he made a great landing because ex-fighter pilots especially don't like to look bad in front of other pilots, especially the rest of us civie pukes. :D
 
I had a long conversation with me CFI about this yesterday....I love 3 point landings and prefer them over any wheel landings every day! (must be all the time I have on my Pitts which is a mandatory 3 pointers)

here is a proud sequence this past Sunday!

Really nice series of images showing how to do it. Very nice flying!

But I keep thinking, what a lot of wasted runway behind the airplane when finally touching down. That technique could be dicey where landing distance is at a premium.

My TD experience, which ain't much, was when shooting for the 3 pointer the pogo landing was usually the norm. Anywhere near a fully stalled attitude, the tail wheel will touch first and off you go on the pogo ride with full aft stick until the rest of the airplane decides to stay on the concrete. That's not a dignified way to end any flight and perhaps why many RV pilots opt for at least a partial wheel landing with forward stick before the tail touches. It is counter intuitive for me to add power to get nice looking landing but that's also part of it.

The trike landing at idle power, full aft stick, nose high seems much more intuitive - and uses a less runway. :)

(There must be more ways than one to skin the cat when landing a Pitts. We have an S1 here and the pilot always makes a wheel landing, he says its the only way he can see anything. I've seen it a number of times and appears to be stick forward until the tail drops.)
 
There must be more ways than one to skin the cat when landing a Pitts. We have an S1 here and the pilot always makes a wheel landing, he says its the only way he can see anything. I've seen it a number of times and appears to be stick forward until the tail drops.)

Sure, there are few absolutes in flying. I've done a handful of wheel landings in my S-1S in fairly calm conditions, but it was just for the helluvit. Except for dramatic effect with the airshow guys, you rarely see wheel landings in a Pitts. I don't think visibility is much better, since you STILL can't see over the nose unless you touch down around 100mph and jack the tail unnecessarily high on rollout (not much ground clearance with a 2-blade prop). Visibility problems in a Pitts have much more to do with the approach than the touchdown, which is why I keep the slip in all the way down to the runway. Once down, forward vis is not needed and does not help...and the tail has to come down anyway. Could be this pilot just never got perfectly comfortable using his peripheral vision to judge height and alignment, but hard to imagine anyone flying a Pitts with this issue. The airplane is so draggy and bleeds speed so quickly, that to do a wheelie, you have to fly it onto the runway quite a bit faster or use power to give yourself time to find the runway smoothly before it settles into a 3-pt. attitude. Eats up a lot more runway unless you're willing to get on the brakes hard with the tail up.

Especially in S-1's with the bungee gear, the narrow track makes an already "tippy" airplane even more so, since with the tail up, the CG is higher. The plane is also so short-coupled, that I think it really benefits from having 3 wheels on the ground right away for stability. The rudder and ailerons are plenty effective at 3-point speed, so no need to worry about control authority. Also be sure to have good bungees, so a botched landing doesn't spread the gear too far and eat prop. There really isn't a lot of clearance with a 76" prop on an S-1. I just think it's a nonessential maneuver, and that the risk-benefit ratio (no benefit at all, IMO) doesn't make them worthwhile (in the Pitts). But different strokes. It is in a way just another airplane after all...sorta. :)

Anywhere near a fully stalled attitude, the tail wheel will touch first and off you go on the pogo ride with full aft stick until the rest of the airplane decides to stay on the concrete.

Yep, many tailwheel airplanes are like this, which is why the 3-pt landing is a (learned) "attitude" landing and not a "full-stall" landing.
 
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But I keep thinking, what a lot of wasted runway behind the airplane when finally touching down. That technique could be dicey where landing distance is at a premium.

True in this particular case, but the opposite can be accomplished if needed....I still got out on the 2nd intersection (c) at KLKR landing on 06....(less than 2000 ft) Remember....I have no flaps and I cross the treshhold at 110 mph's. Lots of AS bleeding prior of wanting to let the beast settle on her own.

...as for the pitts wheel landing...It can be done...I just wont do it.! Too Short and Narrow for comfort! (I have over 800 cycles in the S2B alone) I got used to the peripheral visuals (who needs to see in front when you land anyway? LOL!)
 
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Of course it depends on your definition. I am 100% on my "perfect" three point landings. Sometimes one landing turned into two or more, but I have walked away evertime. A very old time pilot buddy of mine told me a perfect three point landing was one that you dropped in from an inch or more above the ground. "Greasing it on feels good, but your still flying. If you stall the airplane an inch or two above the ground, that airplane is done flying."
He wanted to see me "splat" it on the ground everytime.
We all know in a tailwheel airplane, your never done until it is in the hangar or tied down regardless.

I still strive for that perfect greaser though.
 
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"ker-plunk!"

He wanted to see me "splat" it on the ground everytime.
I still strive for that perfect greaser though.

Yes, I call it my "ker-plunk" style of landing. I do find, as many have commented in many threads, that the RV-8 feels a bit squirrelly on the ground during/after a 3-pt attitude landing, because it is still flying. It just happens to have its wheels on the ground while its flying. I was taught 3-pt-ers as a religion in the Citabria, and it is a lovely plane for doing them. The -8, I confess, has made me agnostic. But I find it not useful to cling to faith in the face of evidence.
 
I do find, as many have commented in many threads, that the RV-8 feels a bit squirrelly on the ground during/after a 3-pt attitude landing, because it is still flying.

The deck angle of the landing gear for most taildraggers is lower than the full-stall attitude. The RV-8 is no different. It's not flying, it's just light on its feet like any other taildragger on high speed rollout. Never heard anyone describe an RV-8 as squirrelly on the ground.
 
if the deck angle in a 3-pt attitude keeps the wing at an AOA less than the critical AOA - which is how I read the last post - the wing is still providing a good deal of lift and therefore could be considered still flying. Am I wrong?

I think it is for this very reason a lot of people prefer to wheel rather than 3-pt the -8 as it is necessary to touch the tailwheel first to allow the wing to actually stall as the mains touch down. So it isn't really a true 3-pt but rather a 1-pt followed by a 2-pt. At least this is how it works in my -8. I've been able to muscle it on by maintaining power through touchdown at the 3-pt attitude but it is not stalled - in fact it is several units AOA shy of the stall. It is a challenge for sure but I prefer a tailwheel low wheel landing.
 
three point

Interesting to see all the comments about the Pitts. Out of at least fifty different taildraggers, the one I was the most consistent with was the Pitts S1S. Almost always three point, maybe three wheel landings in 1000 hours.
 
if the deck angle in a 3-pt attitude keeps the wing at an AOA less than the critical AOA - which is how I read the last post - the wing is still providing a good deal of lift and therefore could be considered still flying. Am I wrong?

I think it is for this very reason a lot of people prefer to wheel rather than 3-pt the -8 as it is necessary to touch the tailwheel first to allow the wing to actually stall as the mains touch down.

I still don't understand how an RV-8 rolling out 3-pt. is any different from any other RV, or most other taildraggers in general. Other RV's would require the mains to be about a foot in the air when the tailwheel touches to do a true full stall landing. Very few tailwheel airplanes have the landing gear stance set at or very near the stall attitude.

It's not flying if the wing is not producing lift equal to the weight of the plane, which is not happening rolling out at 3-point speed. Now if you could increase the AOA, you'd be flying again until you slowed below stall speed, but the ground and the landing gear prevent this. The potential to fly might be there for a brief period, but the AOA on rollout doesn't allow it. Not really much different than doing a fast landing in a trike, and immediately letting the nosewheel down. Is the trike still "flying" when rolling on all 3 wheels? It might if you hauled back on the yoke and increased the AOA.
 
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