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IFR Equipment Requirements Again

R

RFazio

Well Known Member
I brought my plane to get the new Dynon transponder certified and asked what did they have to check for the IFR certification. The tech told me he had to check the heated pitot, and that I had to have one to get certified? I have never seen anything in writing requiring a heated pitot. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have one. I have the switch and wiring installed. Just never got around to install the actual unit. But I did not think It was an IFR requirment. I ended up with a VFR cert.
 
No need to guess....

A heated pitot is not required for IFR flight for E-AB aircraft, unless you've built something enormous. My guess is that the technician was confused with FAR 125.205, which says you must have a heated pitot for IFR flight. But that is for planes with 20 seats or more than 6000 pounds of payload capacity.

If you read and comply with 91.205 you do not need a heated pitot for IFR flight.
 
also... there is no such thing as an IFR "certification". You either have the equipment required in part 91 or you don't. The transponder and the pitot/static system must be tested and meet the requirements listed in those sections but you will not receive anything that says your airplane is IFR certified.
 
not IFR equipped...?

So if our RV-4 has a certified transponder and the pitot static system is tested, it's IFR? Thought there were more requirements to it than that. I'll be reading that section thoroughly.

Another question then is, how do you 'verify' your airplane is 'properly equipped' vs 'certified' for IFR flight? What's the OPs recourse for getting his VFR only restriction removed if heated pitot is not a requirement for IFR flight IAW OBAM/EAB a/c rules?
 
Appropriate Navigation equipment

You also have to have nav gear that lets you fly the type of IFR flying you intend to do.

So if you only have a VOR and no enroute certified GPS, then you have to file and fly a flight plan VOR-to-VOR and do a VOR approach at your destination. If you have ILS/Glideslope indicator, you can then fly an ILS approach at your destination.

If you have an Enroute (only) GPS, you have more flexibility in your enroute routing. If you have Approach certified GPS, you can fly GPS approaches at your destination.
 
There is a very clear chart of the requirements for Day, Night, and IFR on the Matronics forum. Google FAR 91.205 and down the list is a document called "Minimum instrument and equipment required".

Read and enjoy!


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
John Clark said:
There is a very clear chart of the requirements for Day, Night, and IFR on the Matronics forum. Google FAR 91.205 and down the list is a document called "Minimum instrument and equipment required".

Read and enjoy!


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

It's amazing how simple it really is..

Thanks John
 
John Clark said:
There is a very clear chart of the requirements for Day, Night, and IFR on the Matronics forum. Google FAR 91.205 and down the list is a document called "Minimum instrument and equipment required".

Read and enjoy!


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

John is correct.

To save others the trouble finding it, here is the link to the FAA.

I would paste the entire 91.205 here but it is too long for the forum.
 
Yes, and while FAR 91.205 applies to normally certified aircraft, your operating limitations almost certainly require you to follow them for night or ifr operations. Vfr-day, do what you like.
 
An "IFR cert" is "generally" associated with the certification required under Part 91.411 for altimeter, altitude encoder and static sytem.

And no you don't need a heated pitot.
 
Does anyone have any direct link to an FAA ruling or something similar from the EAA outlining what equipment must be TSO'd or certified in some form?

This is often a grey area, but I am sure it is documented somewhere. Hopefully.
 
The problem is the vagueness of the statement "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown." The FAA's definition of approved IFR enroute/approach GPS equipment is spelled out in TSO-C129a. If you land somewhere after an IFR approach and lets say an FAA inspector ramp checks you they could feasibly demand that you prove to them that your equipment meets the TSO requirements for IFR flight even though you do not need an approval from them for an experimental installation. Not likely however, but I'm inclined to think they could pull the "careless and reckless operation" reg on you if you have nothing more than a portable or an experimental EFIS.
 
Suitable

Bob, believe it or not, the FARs (91.1) actually define the word "suitable", at least for RNAV/GPS. There's a lot of verbage, but basically it says suitable is what the FAA says it is, in their non-regulatory (A/C, AIM, etc) publications. A catch 22 if there ever was one.
 
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Dang, I dont have a clock!

I have the two panel G3x, Dynon D6 for back up, batteries for both, GNS650 and 2 coms, but i don't have a clock in the mix. It is on the list. After spending that much on a panel a velco stick up is not attractive. I have a watch. :D

Is rethinking in order?
 
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BillL said:
I have the two panel G3x, Dynon D6 for back up, batteries for both, GNS650 and 2 coms, but i don't have a clock in the mix. It is on the list. After spending that much on a panel a velco stick up is not attractive. I have a watch. :D

Is rethinking in order?
Click to expand...

You could just use the clock and or timer functions in the G3X....you'll notice in the manual that you can put a clock (in local 12/24 hr or in UTC) and/or flight timers into your one of your data fields.....or....the timers (count up/down or flight) in the GTN-650! :)

Cheers,
Stein
 
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BillL said:
I have the two panel G3x, Dynon D6 for back up, batteries for both, GNS650 and 2 coms, but i don't have a clock in the mix. It is on the list. After spending that much on a panel a velco stick up is not attractive. I have a watch. :D

Is rethinking in order?
Click to expand...

Is there such a thing as a GNS650? Do you mean GTN650 or possibly GNS430/530? Just curious. Nice panel, seems near identical to mine if you meant the GTN650.
 
Thanks!

Yeah I meant the GTN 650 -

Thanks Stein ! I must be at diminished capacity tonight, I thought i looked in the G3X manual tonight and did not see that timer/clock in the search.

I thought we had all the bases covered when the panel was laid out, thanks for the info and a GREAT PANEL. I think am at the near overwhelmed building stage now.

I should step away from the keyboard now.
 
Rick_A said:
You also have to have nav gear that lets you fly the type of IFR flying you intend to do.

So if you only have a VOR and no enroute certified GPS, then you have to file and fly a flight plan VOR-to-VOR and do a VOR approach at your destination. If you have ILS/Glideslope indicator, you can then fly an ILS approach at your destination.

If you have an Enroute (only) GPS, you have more flexibility in your enroute routing. If you have Approach certified GPS, you can fly GPS approaches at your destination.
Click to expand...


Walt, how do you file if you have an enroute GPS? "/G" says that you have enroute, terminal, and approach capability.
 
same question

All we have is a GX65; as far as I understand, it [does] have approach capability (just looked at the Garmin page to verify). And we have no other RF equipment (VOR, ILS, LOC, etc) installed. An I/VFR airplane with GPS PT-PT nav, and terminal ability so it is technically /G capable.
 
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I do not believe the gx 65 is approach certified. The gx50 and 60 are.

From garmin site...The GX65 is TSO-C129a Class A2 approved for IFR enroute & terminal operation....The GX60 is TSO-C129a Class A1 approved for IFR non- precision approach operation.
 
GusRV8 said:
All we have is a GX65; as far as I understand, it [does] have approach capability (just looked at the Garmin page to verify). And we have no other RF equipment (VOR, ILS, LOC, etc) installed. An I/VFR airplane with GPS PT-PT nav, and terminal ability so it is technically /G capable.
Click to expand...

Yes, just be sure you understand alternate requirements. Since It is certified under TSO 129a A2 you need a non GPS approach capability at your alternate. However, if you limit your IFR to Wx such that you do not need an alternate or can shoot a visual at the alternate you can file /G.
 
GX-65 is NOT approach certified

According to the users manual, the GX65 has the comm features of the GX60, but is not IFR approach certified and does not have the approach features.

The GX50 is a full featured GPS receiver IFR certified for non-precision approach; the GX55 is for enroute operations only; the GX60 combines 50 and a radio; the GX65 has the comm features of the 60 but is not IFR approach certified etc (see above).

So I guess we're back to the original question...VFR only, or slash something since we don't have an approach capability nor any other RF?

I think I need to go back to something with just a whiskey compass for direction and a cork for fuel level! Grrrrr...
 
If you have nothing besides a GX-65 you cannot file ifr. The GX-65 is certified under TSO 129 for "supplemental" navigation. You have to have something else, normally a VOR receiver.
If you do have a VOR you can file /G, but approaches have to be VOR or visual, not GPS, with the GX-65.
 
BobTurner said:
If you have nothing besides a GX-65 you cannot file ifr. The GX-65 is certified under TSO 129 for "supplemental" navigation. You have to have something else, normally a VOR receiver.
If you do have a VOR you can file /G, but approaches have to be VOR or visual, not GPS, with the GX-65.
Click to expand...

TSO 129 A1 is for enroute and terminal IFR and non-precision approach. The only limitation is approach capability at the alternate. If you don't need an alternate you don't need a non GPS approach capability. So an A1 navigator can file / G without a VOR but an A2 cannot.
 
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I know we have disagreed about this in the past, Ken. But the FAA's position, clearly stated in the AIM, and legitimized by reference in FAR 91.1 ("suitable Rnav/gps"), is that all tso 129 units may be used for ifr only if other navigation capability is available.
 
Bottom line is, Bob T is correct that tso 129 equipment must have addition nav capability on the aircraft, meaning vor is required for IFR. The tso 145/146 systems do not require the additional vor system.

FAR 91 was changed to suitable navigation to provide for use of RNAV systems to operate in the national airspace system. RNAV capabilities are a little more complicated in that there is a lot of information in the AIM for basic fundamentals to operate in the NAS, ac 90-100a for terminal and enroute RNAV operations, ac 90-107 for WAAS LPV operations, AC 20-138 for approval for positioning and nav systems, etc.

We should be informed and prepared for if the FAA proceeds with the proposed shutdown of many of the vors east of the Mississippi and transition from victor airways to "T" rnav routes in that area by 2020.
 
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