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Looking at an RV-4 tomorrow. (2/5/2022) Gut check me?

robblr

Member
My first post here, though I've been a consumer of VAF for some time. My thanks to all who've shared their wisdom.

I'm a 400+ hour private pilot, about 50 hours in tailwheel, mostly Cubs. Currently own a Cherokee 160 I'm using through Instrument and Commercial. I also hold seaplane and glider ratings. I won't attempt to fly any Vans without transition training first.

I've got it in my head that I need an RV-4. I've flown a 7 and loved it, but the 4 fits my mission and budget much better. An 8 would be great, but I can think of better uses for that extra $100k right now. I recently got a hangar at my airport after years of waiting, and now I need to fill it. The time seems right, current market aside. I've been watching the classifieds, Barnstormers and Trade-a-Plane for the last few months. I was quick on the draw to email the owner of a 180HP RV-4 in PA a few weeks ago the second his ad went live, and we've scheduled time for me to fly up tomorrow morning and take a look.

Panel is nothing special. APpears to be basic engine and IFR instruments with a D10a, maybe an autopilot.

Asking price is $75k which, to me, looks like a $45k airplane plus a $30k engine. I have no idea if this is a fair price or not. I don't think I want to pay $75k for an airplane which will almost certainly depreciate as I put time on it. The only other 4's I've seen come up for sale the last six months either sell quick with high time engines priced around $45k, or sit unsold for months with engines at or past TBO for $67k. Two years ago a mid-time 4 would set you back a buck and you'd have change leftover. Strange times are these.

A few things stand out to me:

1992 build with about 500hrs on the airframe. Engine is a brand new YO-360 with metal prop, 5hrs total time on it. The non-rated owner states he hit a taxiway light on his 2nd lesson in the aircraft and 'talked the insurance company into a new engine.' I've never heard of this before. How likely is it there's more to the story? He says he's got all logs since new, and receipts/emails from the engine replacement. What other questions should I be asking? Should I view this as 'damage history' and just stay home tomorrow?

I'm not sure how long it's been sitting. A disciple of Mike Busch, I know what can happen to an engine left unflown for long periods of time. Any tell-tale signs I can look for without a borescope?

It's heavy. Having familiarized myself with w&b issues of o-360'd RV-4s, I asked to see the weight and balance. He sent the last w&b from 2006 which has empty weight at 1,062/68.32, and max gross at 1500. Seems about 100lbs overweight to me and, if I'm reading this correctly, CG near the fwd limit if flown single pilot. With two 170lb people on board, there's enough weight left over for...8 gallons of avgas. Not ideal. I hope I'm reading these numbers wrong. How much of the fwd and empty weight would be mitigated by a Catto prop and eventual panel overhaul?

Below are things I'd like to inquire about tomorrow during the look-around:

  • Fuel tank condition - sloshed?
  • AD and SB compliance
  • adsb? The last ground track on flight aware appears to be the ferry flight from when he bought it in 2019. I'm based inside the DC 30nm ADS-B veil, so ADS-B is required.
  • lightweight starter?
  • details of prop-strike and any other damage history
  • cracked rudder skins
  • check for cracks on lower engine mounts/weldments. Can this be seen with the cowl on?
  • long or short gear
  • angle valve or parallel valve

This will be the first 4 I've looked at/sat in. I might hate it. I might love it. I want to avoid being impulsive, and if I do decide to make an offer, I want it to be fair to both myself and the seller. Would $60-65 be a fair offer, given what I've noted above? Or is $75k a screaming deal and I should bring cash?

Thanks for reading. I welcome any thoughts you might have.
 
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You can see the weldments from inside the cockpit. I have an early -4. first flew in '90. IO-360 with CS prop, short gear, 0.016 elevator skin and lots (3,000) of hours. Short gear and forward CG has not been a problem for me after more than 300 hours in the last couple of years. I fly mostly solo so putting someone in the rear seat can be a little unsettling.
 
Vertigo

Love your approach here. Not directly related to the airplane, but maybe useful thought. When I started my journey on buying an RV I was focused on RV-4. At the time RV-4s were about $10-15K less than RV-6. I took 2 test flights in RV-4s. For a number of reasons I passed on both of those, but I did notice that I got vertigo during both flights. I ended up buying a RV-6A.

The reason I mention this is because looking back on that experience I hesitated on buying a RV-4 based on that vertigo, but I now believe it was based on me sitting in the back, as well as not being used to flying in an RV. Probably partially due to the owners wanting to "show off" with zoom climbs, aggressive banks, etc. Knowing what I know now this vertigo should not have been a factor in my purchase decision.

Good luck with your search!
 
Welcome to VAF

My first post here, though I've been a consumer of VAF for some time. My thanks to all who've shared their wisdom.


Thanks for reading. I welcome any thoughts you might have.

Robb, welcome to the active side of VAF;):D
 
For the ADS-B, some transponder systems can be upgraded to ADS-B, I think. If not, https://uavionix.com has at least a couple options that can be retrofitted, if the plane at least has a transponder. They are under $2k each. A friend installed one of their systems, the wingtip light one, in his non-RV and it tested fine and apparently has been reliable. I have no personal experience with them.

I got a ride in the back seat of an O-320 powered fixed-prop RV-4. The performance was adequate but not sparkling, but it was summer here in Colorado, so high density altitude. Forward visibility around the large pilot was nil, but side visibility was excellent. The back seat cockpit was otherwise comfortable and the plane flew well and handled nicely. It weighed around 980 pounds, if I remember right, so the one you're looking at might not be excessively heavy, especially if it has a constant-speed prop.

The engine, assuming it's documented as described, is not a deal-breaker.

Dave
 
Thanks, everyone!

The engine isn't a deal breaker. I'm just trying to assess value. I don't think I've seen any examples of sales with new-from-the-factory engines. I sort of think of it like buying an aircraft with a clapped-out 360 cheap and then installing a new engine. In this case, the work is done and the engine is built into the cost.

ADS-B isn't a dealbreaker either. I'm familiar with the UAvionix product and wouldn't have a problem installing that after purchase. I'll have plenty of time to tinker while I finish my IR in March, and then get some quality transition training. Along with the prop/spinner, I need to be realistic with myself about what kind of money I'd want to fork over in the first year to get the airplane the way I want it, and if that should have an impact on the purchase price.
 
I don't think I want to pay $75k for an airplane which will almost certainly depreciate as I put time on it.

Question: What is the best way to make a small fortune in aviation?
Answer: Start with a large fortune.

If you want it, just do it. The thousands of additional dollars you are investing on having an airplane will not compare to what you could lose in depreciation.

I am not saying not to be cautious with your money. I am saying understand your total cost and put that "potential" loss in perspective.

And I guarantee you, non of that comes into your mind while your flying the plane.
 
I recently got one

I purchased mine April of 2021 and it had a factory new engine in 91 but it sat for 10 years so an AP bought it from the widow, tore the engine down and replaced/OH everything that required it. Engine and AF had 280 hours on them (o-360 with hartzel CS prop). When I went to look at it I noticed it had sloshed tanks and was going to require work there. It also had a heavy wing but airframe was solid as was the engine and prop that were just repaired/OH. I purchased it and have put a lot of work in it to try and get it 'perfect'.

I will warn you, the tanks are a BIG job to de-slosh them. I think I spent about 80 to 100 hours between the both of them but this did also include addressing a bunch of service bulletins like new flop tube and tying down the fuel pickup on the other side. I pulled the rear baffles and used MEK and scotch bright pads and I highly suggest that over cutting holes and putting the tank repair kits on. You can see and move around so much better and mine sealed back up first try, although there is some time spent cleaning up all the old proseal off the tanks. Basically, even if you spend the 75K on this plane, expect to put in some labor to make it 'perfect' to you.
 
RV-4 weight

My RV-4 completed in 2006 weight is 1025 with a c of g at 71 inches. This is with paint, an O-360 with constant speed prop and wheel fairings. D10A with autopilot. Would not sell for $75K.

Ken
 
The weight would give me pause. I got an 8 which comes in under 1000lb with an IO-360 (unpainted, Cato prop) and I regularly manage to fill it to 1800lb when I am traveling with my son.

So if you:

- Are more disciplined in eating and weigh less then me and my son
- Are looking for a single seater at least when traveling

go for it.

If you are like me and can't control your eating AND want to fly with friends seriously think about an 8... .

Oliver
 
The weight would give me pause. I got an 8 which comes in under 1000lb with an IO-360 (unpainted, Cato prop) and I regularly manage to fill it to 1800lb when I am traveling with my son.

So if you:

- Are more disciplined in eating and weigh less then me and my son
- Are looking for a single seater at least when traveling

go for it.

If you are like me and can't control your eating AND want to fly with friends seriously think about an 8... .

Oliver

I'm 6'1 and about 160 soaking wet, my partner significantly less. I can count the number of times she's flown with me in the last year on one hand. Our flights in the cherokee have never exceeded 1 hour in duration. Regardless, I'll probably stay in my cherokee partnership for those rare times we fly out to the coast for oysters with our 70lb lab.

The bulk of my flying is solo, and most of it is between HWY and FRR to fly gliders on the weekends. I think I can cut the 20 minute commute down to 13 or 14 in the -4 ;) acro instruction would be near impossible in the -4, but there are lots of folks at my airport teaching in Decathlons if I ever want to scratch that itch.

I am looking forward to flying solo to OSH in a -4 with my 45lbs of gear strapped to the back seat. Normally I make the trip in an overloaded Cherokee with two friends.
 
A few years ago the -4 you just described was worth about $35-40k. Aircraft prices across the board have got seriously ridiculous. I’m not sure how the banks are responding to aircraft loans in this high market? I doubt I would even be approved for a $75,000 RV-4, even with a perfect credit score.
 
RV4

Regarding ADSB i9t is possible to get a semi permanent waiver for locations such as yours. The protocol is to leave the mode C veil by the most direct route. There is precedent for this.
If you want to install ADSB out the Garmin GDL82 is a reasonable way. Antenna, a couple of leads and the power wire. Discounted price is under $1800. Rare to find a used one but they run around $1k.
 
A few years ago the -4 you just described was worth about $35-40k. Aircraft prices across the board have got seriously ridiculous. I’m not sure how the banks are responding to aircraft loans in this high market? I doubt I would even be approved for a $75,000 RV-4, even with a perfect credit score.

Agreed. I don't need to finance, thankfully, but this raises a concern around insurance. Or will they just insure for the purchase price?
 
Regarding ADSB i9t is possible to get a semi permanent waiver for locations such as yours. The protocol is to leave the mode C veil by the most direct route. There is precedent for this.
If you want to install ADSB out the Garmin GDL82 is a reasonable way. Antenna, a couple of leads and the power wire. Discounted price is under $1800. Rare to find a used one but they run around $1k.

Yep. I've read up on the waiver. I don't think I'd have an issue getting it home, but it is going to be required for where I'm based as well as where I fly. I also just really like ADS-B. I'd likely go the UAvionix route as a priority when I got it home.
 
Insurance

Agreed. I don't need to finance, thankfully, but this raises a concern around insurance. Or will they just insure for the purchase price?

I asked for (and received) 60K hull in April 2021. 0 hrs make/model/tailwheel 400TT and 100 in the last 12 months. I was 32 years old. I paid 2300 and a 2500 deductible or so and had to get 10hrs dual in a TW RV (did it in an RV7) along with my TW endorsement at the same time and another 10 solo before carrying passengers

This year we've started quotes and it looks like I'll get 75K hull for $1500 without a deductible. This is for 50hr make/model and 50 in the last year and close to 500TT.
 
Yep. I've read up on the waiver. I don't think I'd have an issue getting it home, but it is going to be required for where I'm based as well as where I fly. I also just really like ADS-B. I'd likely go the UAvionix route as a priority when I got it home.

Depending on if the transponder is old as dirt, I'd suggest UAvioniX AV-30 with the TailbeaconX. My transponder was iffy and I didn't have ADSB so I went with this combo and I think it was about 2500 and well worth it especially if you are considering a second AV-30 so you can drop a vacuum system. Another thing that played into my decision for this combo was the aircraft didn't even have an attitude indicator and I was not comfortable in the PNW flying at night without one because if you are up high you could quickly find yourself above a cloud layer in pitch black and not know which way is up as you scramble for a 180 to get your bearings back.
 
My O-360 fixed pitch metal prop -4 weighs 1018, so that’s probably not car from where you’re at.. Forward CG? Not a problem.. it’ll be easier to land.. an -8 under 1000lbs? That’s almost hard to believe.. makes me wonder how accurate any of our scales are. Must be pretty barebones with an attention to keeping it featherweight..
 
I agree that the fwd CG is more of a benefit than a liability. Aft CG is the -4’s Achilles heel. My CG is close to the fwd limit solo: IO-320 CS prop. It’s easy to fly with a 180 pounder in the back.
As for the max gw…
100 lbs over gross is no problem. My short gear -4 with the HD weldments was put into service with a listed TO wt of 1600 and a max landing of 1500. I thought I read that the GW for -4’s in Europe is 1600. Perhaps someone can confirm that.
 
$75,000.00 RV-4

I built my 4 from a partially started kit and now have approximately 1400 hrs on it and still love flying it. I finished it in 1999 then tore it down at 1,000 hrs in 2016 to take a look at everything and monderize it. You can always tell the vintage of the plane by the equipment it carries. I added modern things like an Andair fuel selection valve, Andair boost pump, Crow seat belts, Garmin transponder and com, EI engine monitor, leather Upolstrey and the big one..... a fresh IO-360 with all of LyCons performance parts. I could go on but an RV-4 is still a current airframe while limited in payload compared to an 8 I’ve never been hampered by anything I’ve wanted to do with it. I’ve flown it from the west coast to Oshkosh 5 times (solo) and had plenty of room and payload for camping out for a week. My MT weight is 1010 lbs. I listed my gross weight as 1550 lbs when I built it but like a previous poster I never land it with a weight above 1500 lbs. All airplanes are a compromise just find the the qualities you want.
I couldn’t duplicate my 4 for 75k and I don’t think anybody building today could either. If you like the plane don’t let the price tag discourage you. Anybody who’s working around airplanes these days are amazed at what things are selling for, and I don’t think it’s a bubble. In 5 years 4’s could be 100k. I have a good friend who’s buying a “71” 172 this week end with a mid-time engine for 115k. Who ever could have anticipated that ?
If you see something that you question please e-mail me and I’d be happy to give you an informal opinion. I’ve done some pre-buys before and I’ve seen some rough ones built back in the drill your own era. So just be through and if you like what you see ask for a professional opinion as a contingency for the sale. I’ve seen DAR’s miss some obvious problems so find an inspector here on VAF that has a known reputation. Good luck and enjoy the process.
theduff at EarthLink dot net
 
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The older build and damage history should be weighed into the price and the depth of inspection. A very good look at the airframe is probably be a good idea as a condition of sale by someone that knows -4's as there's a fair amount of variation in them, assuming the rest looks good to you.

Here are some suggestions on more things to look at.

Check on the weldments in the cabin around the corners of the firewall and see if they are the earlier light ones or the later version.

Check for play in the control system.

Check out the wiring and electrical system

Check all of the hoses and systems

Pull the cowl, pull the wing inspection covers and tails ones and look around

Are the operating limitations and all the other paperwork in the airplane?

Take a bunch of pictures

Get the FAA data CD or report and make sure the current engine and prop type match the paperwork. You may be surprised if it has an O-320 on the FAA paperwork and an O-360 on the nose it may not be airworthy without some effort, not a big deal, but good to know going in.

The story of the owner not being rated and damaging the airplane with an insurance payout sounds amazing.

The new engine may be a big plus but you should consider the calendar time on it and if it has been sitting. If it was new in 2005 with 5 hours you may want to take a took inside.

Unless the airplane has been recently weighed on calibrated scales, take the CG and empty weight worth a grain of salt. My -4 was 40lb off when I weighed it myself.
 
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I built my -4 and finished it in 2007. I started with an O320 ,catto 3 blade very basic panel. In 2013 I updated to a AFS efis and adsb. In 2018 l changed the engine to a barrett O360 with a Hartzell C/S, Trutrack auto pilot, leather interior and cup holder.
spec are as follows: empty weight 1043#, empty C/G 68.25”
cruise speed 180TAS at 9.5 gph 10500 msl.
I have flown most of the RV types and several RV4s and it is the best for me. I am in to mine about 80k and would not sell it for any less. Quit picking at specs in the pepper and look at the whole airplane.
 
Update: saw the airplane. 30 year old airplane with 30 year old avionics and $30k engine.

Seller insists he'll get $75k and I told him I hope he does.

Will write more later. Daddy's whipped.
 
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Hmmph

Update: saw the airplane. 30 year old airplane with 30 year old avionics and $30k engine.

Seller insists he'll get $75k and I told him I hope he does.

Will write more later. Daddy's whipped.

Robblr,
I'm nearby at EZF.
Fly to your airport often.
I put my-4 on a serious diet and got it down to 932 with an IO-320 CS.

You have some good advice from those that have chimed in.

I am aware of a basic model fixed pitch 0-320 that is coming up for sale soon. You can pm me if interested.

As for insurance: I pay $907 for $60K worth of hull and extra.
With +700 hrs in the -4 glad to help out any way I can.

Daddyman
 
The new engine may be a big plus but you should consider the calendar time on it and if it has been sitting. If it was new in 2005 with 5 hours you may want to take a took inside.

Unless the airplane has been recently weighed on calibrated scales, take the CG and empty weight worth a grain of salt. My -4 was 40lb off when I weighed it myself.

First, congrats! Every time I fly the -4 I love it even more.

Big +1 for idle time. Check those cyls and pistons. Depending on where it sat, this may not be a huge deal. My '95 RV-4 sat around in a hangar in AZ for about 7 years to little effect. Since 2017 I've put 250 or so hours on her with no engine problems. I think it's important that the engine was fairly new when it went idle, but well broken in with about 125 hours at the time. I can't say the results would be the same had she sat in Houston unused for so long!

Airframe total time is about 1500 hours and there is not much to show for it except for occasional fiberglass work (boat resin not great stuff), a few ancillary worn parts easily rebuilt/replaced on occasion and, yes, a few cracks in the tail feathers. I don't think these cracks are a big deal. Spot them, drill them when it's time, move on. I do inspect the surfaces closely before flight, but we are supposed to do that anyway.

Yet I found that there is a another concern to look out for when our wonder-machines sit around unused for years and it might not be evident right away. Those steam gauges tend to start checking out. At first it was the altimeter, then the ASI, then the VSI. I wasted a fair chunk of change before realizing I needed to replace them all with a G5. And all was well...until the tach died and, shortly after, the MAP. So next was an EDM 350.

Point is, an aircraft built in the 90s with old tech is likely going to need panel work sooner or later - probably sooner. This is not a bad thing as you will gain very valuable real estate as you pull the round dials, enough to install an iPad mini mount or similar - or you could go crazy and install a big single display.

An older, well built and cared for RV-4 can be an awesome, reliable ride even if it's never been updated. If the panel is original, planning and budgeting for at least modest panel upgrades is important and may be involuntary, ADSB aside...

As to empty weight, 12AD is currently 1020 lbs. CG is probably about avg for an RV-4, sitting about mid-range with me and full fuel. I do have to watch it closely with pax. XP 360 w fixed pitch aluminum up front. The plane hasn't been scaled since it was born but the pilot has, and his weight variations negate any potential inaccuracies in 12ADs WB :D

Best of luck finding your RV-4!
 
First, congrats! Every time I fly the -4 I love it even more.

Big +1 for idle time. Check those cyls and pistons. Depending on where it sat, this may not be a huge deal. My '95 RV-4 sat around in a hangar in AZ for about 7 years to little effect. Since 2017 I've put 250 or so hours on her with no engine problems. I think it's important that the engine was fairly new when it went idle, but well broken in with about 125 hours at the time. I can't say the results would be the same had she sat in Houston unused for so long!

Airframe total time is about 1500 hours and there is not much to show for it except for occasional fiberglass work (boat resin not great stuff), a few ancillary worn parts easily rebuilt/replaced on occasion and, yes, a few cracks in the tail feathers. I don't think these cracks are a big deal. Spot them, drill them when it's time, move on. I do inspect the surfaces closely before flight, but we are supposed to do that anyway.

Yet I found that there is a another concern to look out for when our wonder-machines sit around unused for years and it might not be evident right away. Those steam gauges tend to start checking out. At first it was the altimeter, then the ASI, then the VSI. I wasted a fair chunk of change before realizing I needed to replace them all with a G5. And all was well...until the tach died and, shortly after, the MAP. So next was an EDM 350.

Point is, an aircraft built in the 90s with old tech is likely going to need panel work sooner or later - probably sooner. This is not a bad thing as you will gain very valuable real estate as you pull the round dials, enough to install an iPad mini mount or similar - or you could go crazy and install a big single display.

An older, well built and cared for RV-4 can be an awesome, reliable ride even if it's never been updated. If the panel is original, planning and budgeting for at least modest panel upgrades is important and may be involuntary, ADSB aside...

As to empty weight, 12AD is currently 1020 lbs. CG is probably about avg for an RV-4, sitting about mid-range with me and full fuel. I do have to watch it closely with pax. XP 360 w fixed pitch aluminum up front. The plane hasn't been scaled since it was born but the pilot has, and his weight variations negate any potential inaccuracies in 12ADs WB :D

Best of luck finding your RV-4!

I agree as well. Even for the cracks in the tail I stopped drilled them and injected silicone 300 hrs ago and no more cracks. I have an O360 in my RV4 and they seem to appear to be a little more susceptible to cracks.
 
Engine

By far the major issue for inactive engine is cam and lifters. Cylinders can be an issue depending on type. Chrome is obviously not an issue. Nitride is the worst. Other types somewhere in between.
Recent fatal locally with Cessna. Lost power immediately after liftoff, continued and tried to turn back with fatal results. Cam and lifters were so bad its hard to believe the engine ran at all. Broken rings in two cylinders were likely secondary to the cam. History of long period of inactivity, probably near the coast.
 
My O-360 fixed pitch metal prop -4 weighs 1018, so that’s probably not car from where you’re at.. Forward CG? Not a problem.. it’ll be easier to land.. an -8 under 1000lbs? That’s almost hard to believe.. makes me wonder how accurate any of our scales are. Must be pretty barebones with an attention to keeping it featherweight..

I thought the same thing. That's really light. The -8 I purchased was 1012lbs with a 12lb prince prop, lightweight grove gear, a basic VFR Skyview panel, 2.75lb EBC 502 ELT, primed only where necessary/required, and a coat of light paint. Don't know where I would have found another 12lbs+. With my new engine and Hartzell carbon CS prop, it's now 1047lbs. Hats off on getting an -8 under 1000lbs.
 
I thought the same thing. That's really light. The -8 I purchased was 1012lbs with a 12lb prince prop, lightweight grove gear, a basic VFR Skyview panel, 2.75lb EBC 502 ELT, primed only where necessary/required, and a coat of light paint. Don't know where I would have found another 12lbs+. With my new engine and Hartzell carbon CS prop, it's now 1047lbs. Hats off on getting an -8 under 1000lbs.

Well I have no paint, no wheel pans, just a sky view, no interior, lithium battery, …. As for accuracy. I did weigh it on an aircraft scale but I didn’t do anything to validate the result…. .

Oliver
 
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