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slngsht

Well Known Member
Hello all,

I've been lurking for a while and decided to go ahead with the project.

My son (Ryan - 13) and I will be learning to fly and building at the same time.
Have not quite started on the build yet, but the shop is almost set up and started on the practice wing kit yesterday.

Empennage kit arrived Friday and is still in its 2 boxes. I can just tell that tail is wagging in there, ready to start.

We're building in Purcellville, VA. Learning to fly in Martinsburg, WV.

We bought the brown tool kit with a few subtractions and adding those pieces either as upgrades or down the road.

Bought DRDT2 front end without the frame, and welded up a frame for it with scrap I had laying around. The tube is 2x3, which isn't as stiff as the 3x6 that comes with the tool, so added some stiffners, used a column as the base and made a table of it.

Definitely a backyard special, but stiff and does the job nicely.

dimplerwithtable.jpg
 
Fathers day was our first day actually working with construction techniques for the plane.

We started with the test wing kit in the afternoon. Reading and understanding the plans has been fairly smooth, although at time point we've only cut, prepped, dimpled and started riveting the stiffeners.

Also tried LapseIt Pro on Android, and it worked out pretty well - just need to mount the phone somewhere.

Ryan did his first deburring, clecos, and dimpling today, as well as reading the plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prviKsAGH30
 
I tried the first couple of rivets on standard regulator on Browns 3x rivet gun. My compressor is set at 90 psi, and with regulator on the gun set down to "1", it was still way too strong. I tried it on the legs of the bench and couldn't reliably keep it from walking.

Like an idiot I tried a couple of rivets with it and stamped the skin.

Then removed that regulator and put in the one that came with the kit. MUCH better.

Still managed to mess up a couple of rivets, but the rest seem ok (I have not measured yet).

I don't have a bucking plate in the table, so I was doing these by holding the bucking bar on the shop side, which is inside the L bracket stiffeners.

I have to watch more material on riveting. After we got done I remembered I could have taped the rivets in place to speed things up.

Some pics:

bottom 2 on the left were the first ones. rivet gun walked on me. then changed regulators.
firsttwolowerleft.jpg


how do these look? I still see that the rivet is not completely even - they're too close to the vertical leg of the L to get the gun squarely on the rivet. Is there a better way? That's what I'll be looking for tonight when I review stuff I've watched and read for riveting.
dotheselookok.jpg


This was the part ready to go before riveting.
dimpledandreadytogo.jpg
 
You are learning !!

The first lesson I learned is not to do something on the airplane for the first time, always experiment on some other pieces. For back riveting, get a super strong magnet from True Value, paint red, and use them to define the ends of the back rivet plate. I learned this too late. Set pressures on the gun too low and work up until a couple of short burrps will set the rivet.

For the skins, after dimpling and before setting rivets turn the deburring tool in the dimple a few light passes. It will allow the rivet to settle in better.

Use the rivet tape. Otherwise the glue will extrude into the rivet joint.

Keep practicing, and keep building.
 
Thanks Bill, that's a good tip with the magnet. I will try light deburring on the next set.

I just watched the vid on riveting again, and I was using the flush set instead of back rivet set... I had watched everything before but with no parts or tools in front of me. Sticks much better in my head when I can see everything.

We did a 2nd set and it went super quick and smooth :)
 
Riveting just takes practice. I remember being very apprehensive every time I had to use the gun. I would use the squeezer if at all possible. Now, it's second nature and I shoot rivets with the gun much more consistently and better than any other method.

Keep at it. You'll get there.
 
Smart start Mazda and Ryan. I didn't build a practice kit so I carry all dings, smilies and flawed rivets in the airframe. Some are hidden some in plain sight. Did you put deposit on the wings? It's about time you will run out of things to assemble before you know it. :)

 
Hi Vlad!
I'm going to put deposit on wings with 6 weeks to go on empennage. I need two weeks in the middle to do my deck. :)
Getting close to done with the test kit - then off to unpacking and getting started with the real deal.
 
Hey Buddy,

I have a 2 part DVD's showing the wing construction that I would be happy to send you to watch if you would like. It has some pretty good parts and some of the basics really help. I have the tail DVD somewhere that I will try and find if you want it too.

Send me an email with your address and I will get it in the mail.

Good luck and have fun working with your son. What a great way to build a closer relationship.
 
slngsht said:
Hello all,

I've been lurking for a while and decided to go ahead with the project.

My son (Ryan - 13) and I will be learning to fly and building at the same time.
Have not quite started on the build yet, but the shop is almost set up and started on the practice wing kit yesterday.

Empennage kit arrived Friday and is still in its 2 boxes. I can just tell that tail is wagging in there, ready to start.

We're building in Purcellville, VA. Learning to fly in Martinsburg, WV.

We bought the brown tool kit with a few subtractions and adding those pieces either as upgrades or down the road.

Bought DRDT2 front end without the frame, and welded up a frame for it with scrap I had laying around. The tube is 2x3, which isn't as stiff as the 3x6 that comes with the tool, so added some stiffners, used a column as the base and made a table of it.

Definitely a backyard special, but stiff and does the job nicely.

dimplerwithtable.jpg
Click to expand...

There are some active RV builders at Martinsburg so if or when you have some free time, venture out around the T-hangars and mingle. There's some repeat offenders there and some good advice/help when needed. Also, make sure Lee gets you to the end and you and your son both get your certificates. It'll be one of the best days of your lives! Last but not least, welcome to the fabulous world of RV's! You've made a wise choice, Pilgrim.
 
Infidel said:
There are some active RV builders at Martinsburg so if or when you have some free time, venture out around the T-hangars and mingle. There's some repeat offenders there and some good advice/help when needed. Also, make sure Lee gets you to the end and you and your son both get your certificates. It'll be one of the best days of your lives! Last but not least, welcome to the fabulous world of RV's! You've made a wise choice, Pilgrim.
Click to expand...
I've been stopping by hoping to catch Paul. I talked to Donna the other night and joined the local chapter, so hope to run into you guys soon.

I skipped Saturday's event in Westminster hoping to catch Paul, but it turns out he flew to Westminster. :lol:

We're training with Lee.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
Hey Buddy,

I have a 2 part DVD's showing the wing construction that I would be happy to send you to watch if you would like. It has some pretty good parts and some of the basics really help. I have the tail DVD somewhere that I will try and find if you want it too.

Send me an email with your address and I will get it in the mail.

Good luck and have fun working with your son. What a great way to build a closer relationship.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much. Will email you shortly.
 
Well, started on the wing practice kit Friday night and finished it tonight. Learned a ton and made some mistakes I hope to avoid on the plane.

Not happy with how the leading edge turned out. With the other mistakes we understood what we did wrong. The leading edge just looks sloppy.
20160621_193706.jpg

20160621_193619.jpg


Ryan will start with unpacking tomorrow!
 
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slngsht said:
excellent.

I've just been doing it by adjusting regulator at the tool, not adjusting the compressor regulator.

Do you use on in between with a gage to set the pressure?
Click to expand...

The thing on the gun is not a regulator. It's just a needle valve, suitable for minor adjustments at best. Throw it in the nearest flotation test facility. Install a real pressure regulator inlet end of the hose, if you don't already have one there. Set it for the desired gun pressure.

You said your compressor was set to 90 psi, so wIth the needle valve, the first hit of the gun is at 90 psi.
 
DanH said:
The thing on the gun is not a regulator. It's just a needle valve, suitable for minor adjustments at best. Throw it in the nearest flotation test facility. Install a real pressure regulator inlet end of the hose, if you don't already have one there. Set it for the desired gun pressure.

You said your compressor was set to 90 psi, so wIth the needle valve, the first hit of the gun is at 90 psi.
Click to expand...
thanks for clarifying. that's easy to setup, and based on my limited experience so far, that's when your hard work gets a smilie stamp on it real quick.
 
Well, I guess the old saying 'different strokes for different folks' could apply here.

I have a needle valve on each of my guns and would never be without them. My compressor floats between 85 and 95 psi.. I NEVER change the pressure at the compressor for riveting. I run the needle valve in or out 2-3 clicks for dash 3 and dash 4 rivets and couldn't be happier. Been doing this for 10's of thousands of rivets.

I have taught many folks to rivet and they can all set some real nice rivets :).

Just my thoughts after 37+ RV's and Rockets.

Keep practicing and you'll find what works for you. Feel free to contact me, more than happy to chat.



DanH said:
The thing on the gun is not a regulator. It's just a needle valve, suitable for minor adjustments at best. Throw it in the nearest flotation test facility. Install a real pressure regulator inlet end of the hose, if you don't already have one there. Set it for the desired gun pressure.

You said your compressor was set to 90 psi, so wIth the needle valve, the first hit of the gun is at 90 psi.
Click to expand...

slngsht said:
thanks for clarifying. that's easy to setup, and based on my limited experience so far, that's when your hard work gets a smilie stamp on it real quick.
Click to expand...
 
I use a little inline Parker regulator right at the gun, so I can make adjustments on fly as necessary, and I don't have to wonder whether I've adjusted the regulator at the compressor for riveting (I leave that one at 90 psi for the drill, squeezer, die grinder, etc.)

FP12082013A0002L.jpg
 
longranger said:
I use a little inline Parker regulator right at the gun, so I can make adjustments on fly as necessary, and I don't have to wonder whether I've adjusted the regulator at the compressor for riveting (I leave that one at 90 psi for the drill, squeezer, die grinder, etc.)

FP12082013A0002L.jpg
Click to expand...
I'm going to give something like this a try
 
Womp womp... ding in the rudder skin.

Pretty sure it was done before shipping :(. Just sent a support email to Vans.

Exterior of cardboard box was perfect, but the divider panel had taken a hit that transferred through both skins.
 
here's a picture of the ding. fixable? worth worrying about? I might let it go if I had caused it, but hate having something come out of the box dinged already

20160624_090544.jpg
 
N941WR said:
Here you go. That table is a good guide for riveting air pressures.
Click to expand...
gave this a shot. worked great. thx.

just mounted one regulator to the bench. your pressure table is hand written on the table as a rough guide. I didn't write down the length differences.

20160626_211137.jpg
 
Dimples

Hi Mazda,

I think you made the correct decision getting a DRDT2 early in the build process and that's one heck of a frame you've got there to go along with it.. With that said, I think there's room for improvement when it comes to your dimples. From your picture, it looks like you're not quite fully forming the dimple and you're left with wavy/distorted areas around the dimple (you can see this where the light reflects right by a dimple). Anyway, in my experience, I wanted to see a ring in the al-clad around the dimple whether I used the DRDT2 or the pneumatic squeezer. Take a look at this picture where the light is reflecting off of the aluminium and you'll see what I mean.

Best to you and your son on these adventures!

/\/elson

slngsht said:
firsttwolowerleft.jpg
Click to expand...
 
David_Nelson said:
Hi Mazda,

I think you made the correct decision getting a DRDT2 early in the build process and that's one heck of a frame you've got there to go along with it.. With that said, I think there's room for improvement when it comes to your dimples. From your picture, it looks like you're not quite fully forming the dimple and you're left with wavy/distorted areas around the dimple (you can see this where the light reflects right by a dimple). Anyway, in my experience, I wanted to see a ring in the al-clad around the dimple whether I used the DRDT2 or the pneumatic squeezer. Take a look at this picture where the light is reflecting off of the aluminium and you'll see what I mean.

Best to you and your son on these adventures!

/\/elson
Click to expand...
Hi David, I just snapped this pic of my rudder:
20160627_081702.jpg


Somehow your dimples look more localized. Any trick to achieving that? Or is it just a matter of height?
 
Hi Mazda,

I think Aerhed is right - more squeeze is needed. However...read below:

Suggestion: Take a small piece of scrap .032 (say 6" x 1"), drill/debur about 10 x #40 holes into it with 1/2" spacing, and practice dimpling. You are looking for nice clean, crisp dimples w/ very little distortion around the dimple. Also, your scrap piece should not curl up as you're dimpling. If it does curl, you are either not using enough force, the arms of your dimpler a flexing too much preventing a good squeeze, or your dies are poor quality / defective. If you can, seek out an experienced builder in your area / EAA chapter to try and address this.

Aerhed - Now that is NICE looking!

Regards,
/\/elson
 
David_Nelson said:
Hi Mazda,

I think Aerhed is right - more squeeze is needed. However...read below:

Suggestion: Take a small piece of scrap .032 (say 6" x 1"), drill/debur about 10 x #40 holes into it with 1/2" spacing, and practice dimpling. You are looking for nice clean, crisp dimples w/ very little distortion around the dimple. Also, your scrap piece should not curl up as you're dimpling. If it does curl, you are either not using enough force, the arms of your dimpler a flexing too much preventing a good squeeze, or your dies are poor quality / defective. If you can, seek out an experienced builder in your area / EAA chapter to try and address this.

Aerhed - Now that is NICE looking!

Regards,
/\/elson
Click to expand...
Thanks, will try these suggestions tonight.
 
David, Thanks for the advice. I tried various pressures and speeds with DRDT.

However, by far the best result was the old hammer method.

20160627_213408.jpg


I wonder if I'll get fed up with it. lol.
 
I found it rather therapeutic to beat on that C-frame repeatedly. :):) Just make sure to wear ear and eye protection.

The C-frame gave me the best results, no question. It's easy to under-dimple, but virtually impossible to over-dimple, so give each one a very solid whack (or two). I knew I'd done it sufficiently when I could see a faint ring from the outer diameter of the dimple die on the aluminum....a complete non-issue when primer and paint are applied.
 
You guys are making my right shoulder hurt just talking about a C-frame dimpler. I kept mine, but not for dimpling.

This is a great thread. It is just great to see someone learn the micro details of setting a dimple or rivet. I've never seen the Vans practice kit, but hopefully the last instruction is to drill out all of the rivets and start over :).

David has a test coupon that I would just bet he is still holding onto from circa 2006 or so where he put about 50 dimples in one little test sheet and watched it bend into a half moon :).
 
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So tonight I started hammering away dimpling the vertical stabilizer and wondered if I could use the 3X for this purpose.

Tried a test piece and results look good. Did half the dimples using this method. Any of you try this?

On the right, C frame with hammer, on the left, C frame with short burst of 3X. Pressure was set at 35 psi - could probably be lowered a bit.

20160629_225612.jpg
 
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Vertical stabilizer done :)

Reordered skins for rudder - that should be here next week, so I can wrap up the rudder.

Off to horizontal...

Thanks to all the tips in previous posts, dimples looking better

20160701_184606.jpg
 
Hi Mazda - That's looking pretty good! Now you get to practice drilling out rivets on the rudder - be sure to use a good sharp drill bit and take it slow and easy with the air-drill and just tease the trigger while pushing the bit around until you get a good start. Interesting idea on the 3X w/ the c-frame. My only concern would be the thinning of the aluminium sheet from hitting it to much/hard but you seem to have that under control. I'll be curious if other builders will chime in on their experiences if they've done the same thing.

Hi Scott - Funny you mention that. I went looking for pics of that test coupon but no-go.
 
David_Nelson said:
Hi Mazda - That's looking pretty good! Now you get to practice drilling out rivets on the rudder - be sure to use a good sharp drill bit and take it slow and easy with the air-drill and just tease the trigger while pushing the bit around until you get a good start. Interesting idea on the 3X w/ the c-frame. My only concern would be the thinning of the aluminium sheet from hitting it to much/hard but you seem to have that under control. I'll be curious if other builders will chime in on their experiences if they've done the same thing.

Hi Scott - Funny you mention that. I went looking for pics of that test coupon but no-go.
Click to expand...
In picture shown of vertical stabilizer, lower half of the middle column of rivets were dimpled with C frame and hammer. upper half with C frame and 3X, set on low pressure. Each dimple with short burst of 3 bangs.

On the rudder I never put the skin on the skeleton thankfully. :)

I ordered new stiffeners too, so i'll just set that work aside and start with a fresh sheet.
 
Progress on horizontal stabilizer. And a couple of questions - hopefully not redo problems...

current state of things as of now
20160706_214906.jpg


Spacing on last holes on the braces came out pretty nice. Thanks for another thread discussing this topic.
=https://myrv7story.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/20160706_220545.jpg

Now on to the questions... In image below, you can see the far side of the rib is slightly misaligned with the edge of the skin. The rest of both ribs are perfectly flush with the skin, except this area. Will this be a problem?
https://myrv7story.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/20160706_220559.jpg

On the holes connecting 0005 and 0006 ribs to the spar, they're supposed to be in a straight line - mine is not so much. Not quite sure how I got so far off on these. All holes appear to be a safe distance away from edges, so hoping this is ok as well. Thoughts?

https://myrv7story.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/20160706_220700.jpg
note: gap at top of this pic is because I have not trimmed the edge of the spar yet, since I had no reference hole yet on where to trim.
 
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Feedback

Hi Mazda,

slngsht said:
Now on to the questions... In image below, you can see the far side of the rib is slightly misaligned with the edge of the skin. The rest of both ribs are perfectly flush with the skin, except this area. Will this be a problem?
https://myrv7story.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/20160706_220559.jpg
Click to expand...

Edge distance looks to be Ok. I don't see any problem with that and I don't think it'll cause you problems down the road. I will note that keeping the blue plastic in place may slightly shift holes particularly when the mating parts have bends or curves in them; suggest removing the blue plastic either entirely or, using a soldering iron, remove strips where the pieces intersect. If you search "blue vinyl soldering iron" you should come up with something.

slngsht said:
On the holes connecting 0005 and 0006 ribs to the spar, they're supposed to be in a straight line - mine is not so much. Not quite sure how I got so far off on these. All holes appear to be a safe distance away from edges, so hoping this is ok as well. Thoughts?

https://myrv7story.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/20160706_220700.jpg
note: gap at top of this pic is because I have not trimmed the edge of the spar yet, since I had no reference hole yet on where to trim.
Click to expand...

Hard to tell from the picture, but I'm going to error on the side of caution and suggest you closely study the two inner rivets to make sure they will not touch the bend when squeezed/installed. My concern here is a possible stress point possibly leading to a crack.

Regards,
/\/elson
 
David_Nelson said:
Hard to tell from the picture, but I'm going to error on the side of caution and suggest you closely study the two inner rivets to make sure they will not touch the bend when squeezed/installed. My concern here is a possible stress point possibly leading to a crack.

Regards,
/\/elson
Click to expand...

I see. I will actually lay a rivet in there and see if it will only clamp the flat part of the rib.

Thanks for the feedback
 
here's the rivet inserted into the closest hole:
20160707_000944.jpg


I have to read the instructions again - I don't think they specify which direction that rivet should be installed. Flipping it around will also help a little bit with this.
 
Wasn't quite ready to hang it up tonight, but too tired to keep going on the expensive parts.

Decided to do something with my portable bandsaw

20160706_235954.jpg


The trigger switch has a zip tie on it now, and the power cord is plugged into a foot operated pedal switch.

These Milwaukee portable bandsaws are pretty good. Now that it's mounted it should be sufficient for most cuts.
 
Hi Mazda,

I think I see the beginning of the bend that makes the flange in the pic and there looks to be a fraction of an inch between it and the rivet. You may just be Ok but it wouldn't hurt to send a pic off to Van's for a confirmation.

As for rivet direction, if at all possible (1), you want to form the shop head on the side that contains the thicker metal. I believe that AC-43.13 covers that material. That may not apply here because, IIRC, there's a rib on the other side. How does the flange/rivet look on the other side?

(1) - If the plans call it out, then follow the plans.

Regards,
/\/elson

slngsht said:
here's the rivet inserted into the closest hole:
20160707_000944.jpg


I have to read the instructions again - I don't think they specify which direction that rivet should be installed. Flipping it around will also help a little bit with this.
Click to expand...
 
David_Nelson said:
You may just be Ok but it wouldn't hurt to send a pic off to Van's for a confirmation.
Click to expand...

Sent the pic to vans, and they cleared it.

"Since the manufactured rivet head is clear of the bend, it will lay flat against the flange. You will be okay."

Better safe than sorry :).

Thanks.
 
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