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RV-Mission Question

thonati

I'm New Here
Hi guys,

First time post here but have been reading the forums for about 2 years now. I have a question that has been asked many times in previous threads but none of these questions were specific enough for my mission. I am nearing retirement and also a new pilot. I plan to continue flying after work from that flight school (172) to build hours and the occasional XC on weekends with wife.

My mission:
1) Primarily XC (greater than 2 hours)
2) No need for flying upside down (I hate roller coasters & I'm afraid of heights as it is)
3) Primarily the wife, dog and me with the occasional flight with 2 grandkids.

Here is the real kicker. After reading the forums, the trade off between the -10 and -14 leads me to the -14 (or maybe -12). However, for the occasional trip with the grandkids, I do NOT have a flight school close to my house to rent a 4 place. So if I go with the -14 that will eliminate any convenient possibility of taking the grandkids to Disney World, camping etc. I will need to take a commercial flight for this mission. The grandkids live an hour away (by car) and there is a nice little airport that I could land and pick them up.

We are a close family and we have the grandkids every other weekend to give my daughter and SIL alone time and to do their house projects. So if I go with the -14 that will eliminate 50% of my weekends for flying, in addition no joy flying with them.

The question is: is it worth the extra cost of operations (plane & insurance) for the likely monthly trip with the grandkids? I gather the extra insurance is $500-$1000 more per year. This (-14) is a real easy question if I had a flight school near my house to rent the 172. I am stressing out over this decision because if I stay with the -14, I do not want to regret not building the -10 later.

Wifey does not want to offer any suggestions as she has the same internal conflict. She would probably tell me the -10 if I pushed her. She would like to have the "just in case" option. But I am not sure the extra cost is worth the "just in case"

Any all all comments are welcome. I need a variety of ideas and maybe some ideas that I have not considered yet.
 
Welcome to VAF

Hi guys,

First time post here but have been reading the forums for about 2 years now.

Chuck, welcome aboard the good ship VAF:D

Couple items to consider is total cost to build, and time to build.

Pretty sure the 14 would win the above categories.

I loved our 10, but it very rarely had all 4 seats full.

Not flown a 14 so no valid input there.

If you had a 14, you could fly to the nearest airport that would rent you a 4 place for the few times you needed it---------just a thought.
 
This is a no-brainer. Build the RV-10. You will be a hero with your wife, have the premier cross country IFR airplane in the sky, and you get all this for just ~$28K more than an RV-14. I also note my RV-10 annual insurance bill was perhaps $300 more than my RV-8 (similar hull and liability coverage).

I have a lot of time in RV-8s, RV-10s and an RV-14A. I’m now flying an RV-8 but have just started building another RV-10 as I should have never sold my first one.

Side note - once you fly the RV-10 you will wonder why you spent so much time flying a 172 spam can.

Carl
 
For my money, based upon your mission I'd go with the 10 if cost isn't an issue. The extra seats are worth their weight in gold when you need them and when you don't the extra cargo space made available by the open seats is just as valuable. YMMV......
 
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The -10 is what you want. Once you own an airplane you’ll cringe at the thought of renting one while yours sits on the ground. You mentioned the dog. We regularly took our 80 lb Aussie Shepherd (since passed) with us in the -10. That’d be a tough fit in a -14. The grandkids will love it, too. (Make sure your daughter is okay with this, though). TimO sometimes posts here, he has one of each. He’s said he loves the -14, but if he could only have one, it would be the -10.
 
Any all all comments are welcome. I need a variety of ideas and maybe some ideas that I have not considered yet.

Are you going to invest the 2-5 years in building the airplane, or are you looking to buy an already-flying RV10 or RV14? The availability and cost involved in one route or the other may influence the decision between 10 or 14.
 
Here's my take...

It's better to have it (4-seats) and not need it, than it is to need it, and not have it.

I'd encourage you to build the 10!
 
A couple of other thoughts.
1. Picking up the grandkids by air would just be for fun. By the time you factor in two car drives, one at each end, plus pre-flight, etc., you’ll spend at least an hour.
2. Keep flying! Currently insurance on a -10 is pretty hard to find without at least 250 (300 is better) hours total time. An instrument rating helps, too. First year premium will be expensive no matter what.
 
Buy a four seater while you build a -10. When finished, assess your need for four seats again, based on 2-5 years of history. Then keep the 10 you built, or trade down to a 14.

Boy, it sure is fun brainstorming with other people's money! :p
 
Sharing flying experiences with kids, and especially airplane camping, is something you can’t really put a price on. We have one or two trips a year that I say to myself that the experience was so awesome that the airplane investment paid for itself with that one fantastic experience. Building an airplane that makes you happy is good, building an airplane that makes your family happy is even better.
 

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Just some thoughts;

How old are your grandkids? They grow fast, so if you build, by the time it's done your mission may have changed completely.

Have either of them flown with you yet? It would be great if they were crazy about airplanes, but my kids are 20 and 22 and even though they grew up in an airplane family and both mom & dad worked for Cessna, neither of them were particularly excited by it. Maybe with my kids it was just the "familiarity breeds contempt" thing, but are you sure it will be as fun for them as it will be for you?

If it works out like you hope, seems like a 10 fits the mission, but so does a C182 which you can buy for 1/2 the price of a 10. If not, then seems like a 2 seat is the way to go.
 
I can't answer your question, but I can propose some options:
Option 1) Build a 10, fly rentals in the mean time.
Option 2) Buy a 4 seat, 172, Cherokee, Musketeer, 182, whatever you want to afford and fly it while building a 14. Decide to keep or sell later.
Option 3) Same as option 2, but build a 9. Fits your mission, saves some money. Maybe enough to buy a Cherokee.
Option 4) Build a 14 or 9 and join a club to have access to a 4 Place.

Questions to ask yourself:
- How much money and when can you spend it?
- When do you need these machines? You already know kids grow fast and once they hit high school they do their own thing.
- How much time to build is it going to take?

HTH

Tim
 
I can't answer your question, but I can propose some options:
Option 1) Build a 10, fly rentals in the mean time.
Option 2) Buy a 4 seat, 172, Cherokee, Musketeer, 182, whatever you want to afford and fly it while building a 14. Decide to keep or sell later.
Option 3) Same as option 2, but build a 9. Fits your mission, saves some money. Maybe enough to buy a Cherokee.
Option 4) Build a 14 or 9 and join a club to have access to a 4 Place.

Questions to ask yourself:
- How much money and when can you spend it?
- When do you need these machines? You already know kids grow fast and once they hit high school they do their own thing.
- How much time to build is it going to take?

Thanks guys for the ideas. I never thought about flying the -14 to an airport, rent a 4 place and fly to pick up the grand kids. They are 4 and 1 now. The 4 year old has NOT been flying with me yet. She has been flying commercial with us and really enjoys sitting by the window. We make paper airplanes and have flying competitions (she always wins, I hope that is not a bad omen for my building skills).

It looks like I will be permanent work from home until I retire in 5 years so this is why I am pulling ahead my timeline and putting the wings in motion. I could easily dedicate 3 hours per weekday and unlimited on the weekends. I have a shop just big enough to build. I am an automotive engineer and I understand assembly processes/equipment so this should be a big help.

Money is always a problem, right? However, I will not have any payments in retirement except I will finance the RV. I will purchase the emp and fuse with cash and finance the rest. I cannot justify pulling money out of my retirement at 8-10% returns when I can borrow from my credit union for 20 years max at 4-5%. Momma has told me I get to pick one, airplane or house down south (I live near Detroit). I figure the plane will allow more location flexibility and I can always carry a big tent. She was not amused with that comment.

I plan to continue to fly during the build. I have been flying for 25 years off and on but never had the urge to finish.....until my last birthday. I think I am up to 75 hours now. Today, I put out a few feelers for somewhat local flying clubs to see if they have anything to offer. I would like to get my IFR ticket someday so I will probably equip the plane accordingly and train with it.

I had an insurance quote through AOPA for an RV-10. The first year was like $3000 and reduced from there with 10 hours of RV-10 time before binding. I imagine the -14 is slightly lower but similar costs.

I really appreciate all the ideas and suggestions.
 
I’ll say it again. Once you fly in an RV you will hate the idea of renting. You’ll have pre-paid a significant cost of your RV already (insurance, hangar/tie down, taxes...) so the rental will cost triple the gas cost of the RV. And in the time it takes to get to the rental, pre-flight, etc, you could have made two trips. If you have a two seater, that’s what you’ll do, with the wife at one end and your daughter at the other watching one child for an hour. But you really want a -10.
 
and I can always carry a big tent. She was not amused with that comment.

Here’s what you can do with a -10: In Aug 2017, my wife and I, plus another adult couple, plus a large tent, a second small tent for the port-a-potti, 4 sleeping bags, sleeping pads, clothes, ice chest with food, small camp stove for coffee, all piled into the -10. Took off at gross weight, no issue for any RV. Flew non-stop to eastern Oregon (John Day), camped at the airport, got up the next morning and watched the total solar eclipse; flew home. Yes, you can carry a big tent, plus a lot more!
 
Like the rest, I’d say build the 10. I’m currently flying a 14A and building a 10. Also a relatively new pilot. The 14 is amazing, but you’re not just limited in people, but overall capacity. There is very limited room for extra “stuff”. Yes you can put 100lbs in the back. But the back fills quickly just with stuff you need. Canopy covers, cowl plugs, chocks, tow bar, gust lock, extra oil, small tool kit, oxygen, manual, etc etc. THEN an overnight bag or two.

I think you’ll find that the increase in total cost of ownership is marginal at best between the two planes, but that the utility is significant. My $0.02
 
10

For the cost difference the 10 all the way. Extra cargo space is invaluable even when not hauling 4 people. And yes a full size glider rocking chair and ottoman fits in the back in case you need to make a furniture delivery to family. We also haul our dogs with us Doberman,Beagle, fox terrier and sometimes a cat too.
 
I’ll say it again. Once you fly in an RV you will hate the idea of renting. You’ll have pre-paid a significant cost of your RV already (insurance, hangar/tie down, taxes...) so the rental will cost triple the gas cost of the RV. And in the time it takes to get to the rental, pre-flight, etc, you could have made two trips. If you have a two seater, that’s what you’ll do, with the wife at one end and your daughter at the other watching one child for an hour. But you really want a -10.

Not to mention in order to fly that rental, you'll likely have to make an effort to fly it relatively often to meet whatever currency requirements they might have in order to rent their planes solo.
 
You are making the right choice regarding airplane vs. second home/vacation property. An RV (Vans) and Airbnb beats a second home in both cost and flexibility big time!

Tim
 
RV10

I have no kids and have a 10. My wife, my golden retriever and I usually fill up the plane with a bunch of ****. You don't have to leave anything behind. We bring golf clubs sometimes even if we don't play. Camping gear, two mountain bikes, moving a propeller for overhaul, nieces and nephews, discovery flights and usually friends. We rarely fly without needing the extra space plus the cost difference isn't that much.
 
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