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Need to rant / vent a little

AlpineYoda

Well Known Member
Patron
What part of “permanent” do the people who make the plans at Van’s not understand?

I’m in section 12 - fairings. To date, I’ve assembled parts of the tail where I was instructed to “bolt parts together”, and in some cases the plans either implied or explicitly said “permanently.”

So, I’ve torqued bolts to official tightness, painted stripes on bolts, and bent cotter / clevis pins as instructed.

Then I get to page 12-6 and I’m told to remove the horizontal and vertical stabilizers to attach some nut plates for the fairing.

$&@$!!!!!!!

You mean all the assemblies that I installed “permanently”??? The ones where everything was assembled as instructed to final settings? Where I’ve adjusted the push rods and the trim cables to exactly the right length??? Where I have paint lines on all the bolts that I was told to permanently attach them?

All of THAT I have to take apart and do over at some point?????? Not to mention now I have to go order more replacement parts for all the bent pins and the bolts that will start to show wear after being inserted and removed a few times.

Are they kidding me??? And do you think that maybe, just maybe, then could have included a warning 30 $#%&ing pages ago to NOT assemble everything in final form??????
 
Welcome to the world of building airplanes.

First you need to settle back and get into the realm of building airplanes. Nothing is installed permanently to the aircraft until you are ready to fly. Many parts must be installed and removed a number of times before completion. Get prepared, this will not be the last time this occurs. This is a very normal part of building.

I recommend that you do not use locknuts until final assembly. Personally I use castle nuts during the build. When you get to final inspection, any castle nut without a cotter pin has not been torqued and/or needs to be replaced with a locknut.
 
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As you build, you will place orders with Aircraft Spruce or other suppliers. Each time you place such an order, have them toss in a bag of cotter pints, lock nuts, bolts, etc. (I bought one of their large collections, while expensive, I have a lot of extra fasteners in my parts bins.)

Heck, I even got sick of stopping work because I needed a bolt with a safety wire hole through it. I realized it was more expedient to buy the Safety Wire Drill Jig that allows me to drill my own bolts and get back to work than waiting for a that one bolt to arrive. Also, it was cheaper than all the S&H charges I was getting hit with by ordering one specialty bolt at a time. This is more the case when you get to the end and there are fewer things to do while you are waiting for the next shipment.

Just part of building.
 
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What part of “permanent” do the people who make the plans at Van’s not understand?

Oh boy.......if it's getting frustrating with the tail section, wait until the fuse.....wings.....canopy.....cowl.....engine.....instruments...... :D

Yep, time to walk away and take some deep breaths. Building aircraft is not a TAB A into SLOT B exercise, there is still art involved beyond the science.

A couple of years from now you, as a much more experienced builder, will get a chuckle out of your "tail section rant".

As Mel suggested, you are not at the point of installing anything permanently. Your -10 will get built several times before it flies.

Slow down, enjoy the journey, you are undertaking a remarkable endeavor.

(I'm sure you never had to redo anything on that beast of an A-10 sim you built....) :)
 
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At least you have step by step plans....

Try building a single digit vans... They just kind of expect you to figure it out on your own. But I bet those gone before building pre "perpunshed" kits are laughing at this even harder. But I get it. walk away and come back fresh. Sometimes this is is quite frustrating.
 
After the first aircraft build, a glider, I moved to a -6A. One of the early ones without any pre-drilled holes and real basic instructions. There I went to hardware store ordinary no lock nuts for everything that wasn?t obviously permanent. Most came off and on more than once.

The real nuts went on when my intuition said they were done, and that wasn?t always right. It requires close inspections when closing up things. With the -10 and Rans I did the same.

The -10, -12 and -14 plans are detailed enough that you could mark the locations of temporary nuts on the sheets.
 
Imagine when they built a -3 in the 1980 without the InterWeb and Dick answering the phone and leaving a message. The drawings were basically a "guidance". ...

Enjoy all the little steps as milestone, don't look forward to the finish product, otherwise you might get discourage like a lot of people before you.

Enjoy all to it and be proud of the little things, you will be done before you know it!

EL
 
Try building a single digit vans... They just kind of expect you to figure it out on your own. But I bet those gone before building pre "perpunshed" kits are laughing at this even harder.

I resisted the temptation to describe the build process of my 1999 RV-6.....didn't want to sound like one of those old coots who make fun of the youngsters...... ;)
 
Try building a single digit vans... They just kind of expect you to figure it out on your own.

I remember the wing plans being about 4 pages of verbiage and 15 sheets of engineering drawings. Sometimes, that's better. Real (dimensioned) plans and sparse instructions make sure you see the big picture before drilling the first hole.
 
What you?ve learned is you need to read ahead. The old cliche that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure holds very true in building.
 
I resisted the temptation to describe the build process of my 1999 RV-6.....didn't want to sound like one of those old coots who make fun of the youngsters...... ;)

Hmmm...I'm "now" an old coot still busy building the 6A that I started as a youngster in 1993...
It involves a different form of frustration that is self-inflicted, because there are no step by step instructions that tell you what to do, so there is a fair bit of trial and ERROR involved. I'm still learning to not fight it some days. :rolleyes: I think someone should write a book on Zen and the Art Of Airplane Building.
 
What you?ve learned is you need to read ahead. The old cliche that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure holds very true in building.
+1. To be honest I don't recall the type of frustration you're describing. (maybe I'm just more tolerant, I don't know). But it is true that I read ahead, way ahead, then went back to the task at hand. I think it helps to always have the 'big picture" in your mind.
 
Temp nuts

First you need to settle back and get into the realm of building airplanes. <snip>
I recommend that you do not use locknuts until final assembly. Personally I use castle nuts during the build. When you get to final inspection, any castle nut without a cotter pin has not been torqued and/or needs to be replaced with a locknut.

Same here. After tossing a few nyloc nuts, I started assembling with castle nuts. Actual hardware gets placed in a medicine bottle and labeled. All new of course.

Might want to make a habit of reading ahead or running a key word search.

I have heard Vans is editing plans and manuals
 
I?m going to run into the same issue it seems. Rather than go through all that pain, I?ll probably go with click bond nutplates. They?re pricey, but they will save the disassembly.

https://www.theflightshop.com/

Consider this: I used a ton of Click Bonds in my -6 and every condition inspection I have at least one pop off and have to re-epoxy it on. They're good if what they're bonded to is stiff and rigid. The ones on the baggage bulkhead of course are not, nor the ones on the floor ribs. I originally used 3M 2216 structural adhesive and prepared the surface.
 
What you?ve learned is you need to read ahead. The old cliche that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure holds very true in building.

In the past, Van's required you to buy the Pre purchase plans and read the entire procedure before you start. The instructions also said to read ahead of every section.

Is this not true to building current kits?
 
Absolutely. It?s a pain if they come off. I?d only planned to use them for the wingtips to reduce the number of holes I had to drill in the fibreglass. But now since I?m in the same position as the OP (but quite a bit further ahead, currently working on cabin top with all flight controls attached), I?ll likely use click bond for the rear fairing as well since I?d rather spend $150 than take the whole tail apart again.

Just trying to offer an option. I use some of their other products to secure wiring also. The adhesive and surface preppier they sell seems to
Be holding well thus far. I will see when it actually gets into service.
 
I posted similar a couple of weeks ago. I think the 10 plans were the first 'new style' isometric plans and as such could do with a serious revision.

Little handy hint bubbles would save a lot of grief, as guys say - things like - don't worry about nutplates here as they go in later etc.

I use Home Despot best nuts and pink mason line to act as a reminder that pre assembly fittings were used.

What I do want to know now is what the pink mason line is attached to that hangs out of the under wing on my 12 :rolleyes:
 
Good advice . . .

First you need to settle back and get into the realm of building airplanes. Nothing is installed permanently to the aircraft until you are ready to fly. Many parts must be installed and removed a number of times before completion. Get prepared, this will not be the last time this occurs. This is a very normal part of building.

I recommend that you do not use locknuts until final assembly. Personally I use castle nuts during the build. When you get to final inspection, any castle nut without a cotter pin has not been torqued and/or needs to be replaced with a locknut.

This is HUGE! I got hardware nuts for all sizes that are white zinc coated to use everywhere so inspection is easy. There is a lot of "5 steps forward 3 steps back". This is not "assembly", it is building and the mindset of looking for issues by pre-assembly is fundamental.

Even in the professional world, there are mechanics and prototype mechanics. The mechanic just puts parts together, forces what does not fit well. The prototype mechanic questions everything, and will keep an open mind if something does not fit just right, it could be drawing, part error, design error, or assembly error. This view served me well as a builder.
 
...do you think that maybe, just maybe, then could have included a warning 30 $#%&ing pages ago to NOT assemble everything in final form??????
I feel your pain. When I built my Lancair, stuff like that happened all the time, even though I read through the manual several times. Worse yet, since it was the first version of Lancair, important "critical" modifications kept coming out for many years. Heck, thirty years after I bought the kit, I'm still having to correct errors in the plans. It's an adventure.
 
Just found an old manual from when Van?s was building houses, not planes.

Step 1, frame house
Step 2, nail door frames to framing
Step 3, nail roofing material to top of house
Step 4, remove doors from house to allow space for windows to enter house
Step 5, nail windows to framing
Step 6, nail doors back to framing
Step 7, remove doors to allow space to remove windows for adjustments
Step 8, mark locations of all roof tiles, remove roof
Step 9, remove windows
Step 10, dissemble all framing
Step 11, sand all wood parts smooth
Step 12, reassemble
 
Just found an old manual from when Van’s was building houses, not planes.

Step 1, frame house
Step 2, nail door frames to framing
Step 3, nail roofing material to top of house
Step 4, remove doors from house to allow space for windows to enter house
Step 5, nail windows to framing
Step 6, nail doors back to framing
Step 7, remove doors to allow space to remove windows for adjustments
Step 8, mark locations of all roof tiles, remove roof
Step 9, remove windows
Step 10, dissemble all framing
Step 11, sand all wood parts smooth
Step 12, reassemble

Looks good to me! Just grateful that I've been able to live in a wonderful house for twenty years that I would most likely never have if Vans hadn't built it. ;)
 
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This was sort of suggested above, but, you will run into many frustrations and if you follow the rules for hardware, occasionally you will also find some listed hardware may not fit perfectly for your needs.

I would strongly suggest buying some nut/bolt bins...those maybe 30-50 drawer cabinets where you can store hardware, and keeping on hand maybe a minimum of 4 of each size AN3 and AN4 bolt, drilled and undrilled. Some sizes you may even want 10 of each or more. But get a large stock of additional bolts. Same with nuts. Buy 25 or 50 of AN364, AN365, AN310, and those small MS nuts and many others. Same with lock washers, internal and external teeth, and flat washers both Light and standard. I've expanded mine over the years to go all the way up to washers and nuts all the way thru size AN7, with many bolts in the AN5 size, and a couple in AN6 and AN7. The large ones are very rare and you have to know exactly where you need them, but for the small ones, while you are building you will want quick access to the proper hardware whenever needed.

And with rivets, buy a good quantity of each size and type rivet. Don't settle for just what comes in the kit. They're cheap by the pound, so buy some of every length and size and just stock your own bins. It's the easiest way to keep the project on track and not pay tons of extra shipping cost. Hardware cost is never a waste. Shipping cost is. There are also some places where you may prefer to use Stainless screws, so buy all the various sizes of A526C screws. When you do wheel and tail intersection fairing maintenance, you're going to go thru those all the time. So buy some of those by the 100 ct to save money. You will easily spend a couple or even few hundred in hardware, but over the life of the plane you will find many opportunities to use the parts.

Other suggestions: Snap bushings in all sizes, nutplates in all sizes, blind rivet extras of many types, INCLUDING cherrymax rivets for the occasional time you just can't the access you want with a bucking bar. Then there's adel clamps in all the sizes, especially extras for the engine mount tubes. Its quite a list, but to me nothing is more frustrating than not having the parts on hand and waiting for UPS, especially when you find the issue on a Friday and you plan to work on the kit all weekend.
 
Ain?t done till it?s done!

Some fun I have with new visitors to the hangar when they ask how long it takes to build the project. I say it takes about ?X? number of months to put it together, the first time, but I have literally built it 6 times before it?s done.

I get shocked expressions out of them when I hint that the plane is probably worn out before it flies.

A build tip I got a long time ago - & mentioned by others here - you should have a good supply of castigated nuts (obvious) to use for trial fitting & paint them a loud color, red or bright yellow (stand out) to use for fitting & obviously replace at final assembly.

Be patient. It will end.
 
Just found an old manual from when Van?s was building houses, not planes.

Step 1, frame house
Step 2, nail door frames to framing
Step 3, nail roofing material to top of house
Step 4, remove doors from house to allow space for windows to enter house
Step 5, nail windows to framing
Step 6, nail doors back to framing
Step 7, remove doors to allow space to remove windows for adjustments
Step 8, mark locations of all roof tiles, remove roof
Step 9, remove windows
Step 10, dissemble all framing
Step 11, sand all wood parts smooth
Step 12, reassemble

You forgot the "prime if desired" step. Then comes the "latex vs. oil-based" primer wars ...
 
....you should have a good supply of castigated nuts (obvious) to use for trial fitting & paint them a loud color, red or bright yellow (stand out) to use for fitting & obviously replace at final assembly.
.

For myself, I always kept a roll of red plastic tape handy. Any assembly that was temporary - hardware store parts, not at final torque, etc, - got a ‘flag’ of red tape. That included temporary hose installations, too.
PS +1 on Tim’s post on just biting the bullet and ordering spare hardware from the get-go.
 
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My point was that it?s nice to have hardware conveniently on hand specifically for temporary usage, loudly marked (painted) so it is well flagged that it has to be replaced for final assembly. Painted meaning these temp fasteners can be used over & over again. I disliked tape markers because sometimes they fall off, or someone like a buddy comes along and inadvertently knocks it off doing something close to them. Tape is useful for other situations, but not on nuts in my shop.
Best thing is develop a process for temp fasteners that work for you & come time to get that second set of eyes to inspect your work, tell him what to look for.
 
Just found an old manual from when Van?s was building houses, not planes.

Step 1, frame house
Step 2, nail door frames to framing
Step 3, nail roofing material to top of house
Step 4, remove doors from house to allow space for windows to enter house
Step 5, nail windows to framing
Step 6, nail doors back to framing
Step 7, remove doors to allow space to remove windows for adjustments
Step 8, mark locations of all roof tiles, remove roof
Step 9, remove windows
Step 10, dissemble all framing
Step 11, sand all wood parts smooth
Step 12, reassemble
Good stuff! I found the instructions for the earlier house kits:

Step 1, make a nail
Step 2, study the drawings
Step 3, study the drawings some more
Step 4, flip a coin
Step 5, bang in the nail
Step 6, study the drawings
Step 7, the nail is in the wrong place
Step 8, go back to Step 1

But yeah, they are really great houses and it is worth it.
 
Manual frustrating

Just read and study the manual from end to end top to bottom, take notes ,THEN start your assembly.
 
Just read and study the manual from end to end top to bottom, take notes ,THEN start your assembly.

Except for the fuel tanks. You do that and then start building and realize that the instructions are either wrong, incomplete, or outdated! And then you have to kinda piece things together from the -14 instructions and the -10.
 
Fuel tanks are easy....

Hey - Mark, will you build us some tanks for mucho bottella de vino ?

Yup.

OK.

Sorted.

;)
 
Your the lucky one!

For sure the early builders of -4's, '-6's ect... had it way harder.

For us early -10 builders we had to deal with updates as Vans saw problems and updated the drawings and design. Luckily there were not too many major ones. We had to take the skin back off the VS to add a doubler once. Luckily I had not painted before that one came out.

But like others have said, there is no permanent. The annual should just be called, "Plane Rebuild Process". If feels like you take it all apart every year.

Nothing on the plane is hard, it just takes time. Just go step by step. The frustrating and time consuming work is when there are no plans and you have to take your brain off autopilot.
 
i think the problem is that the plans and instructions have gotten too complete. no offense, but people are not building RV's anymore, they are assembling them. when I built my 4 I spent hours, going from sheet to sheet making sure I understood how everything fit together. you had to because nothing was pre anything, and one wrong layout and drill and lots of things down the road would not go together they way it should have.

the whole process of building has changed, people are just doing and expecting put tab a in slot b and insert rivet x in hole y and set. they see the smallest sub assembly but don't see the big picture of the assembly. it makes for a faster,cleaner, easier build, but I think some of the understanding of the airplane as a whole suffers because of the process. sadly i think we are loosing a lot of the experimental in experimental aviation.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
i think the problem is that the plans and instructions have gotten too complete. no offense, but people are not building RV's anymore, they are assembling them. when I built my 4 I spent hours, going from sheet to sheet making sure I understood how everything fit together. you had to because nothing was pre anything, and one wrong layout and drill and lots of things down the road would not go together they way it should have.
the whole process of building has changed, people are just doing and expecting put tab a in slot b and insert rivet x in hole y and set. they see the smallest sub assembly but don't see the big picture of the assembly. it makes for a faster,cleaner, easier build, but I think some of the understanding of the airplane as a whole suffers because of the process. sadly i think we are loosing a lot of the experimental in experimental aviation.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

As Sheldon would say; "Bazzinga!"
 
What part of ?permanent? do the people who make the plans at Van?s not understand?

I?m in section 12 - fairings. To date, I?ve assembled parts of the tail where I was instructed to ?bolt parts together?, and in some cases the plans either implied or explicitly said ?permanently.?

So, I?ve torqued bolts to official tightness, painted stripes on bolts, and bent cotter / clevis pins as instructed.

Then I get to page 12-6 and I?m told to remove the horizontal and vertical stabilizers to attach some nut plates for the fairing.

$&@$!!!!!!!

You mean all the assemblies that I installed ?permanently???? The ones where everything was assembled as instructed to final settings? Where I?ve adjusted the push rods and the trim cables to exactly the right length??? Where I have paint lines on all the bolts that I was told to permanently attach them?

All of THAT I have to take apart and do over at some point?????? Not to mention now I have to go order more replacement parts for all the bent pins and the bolts that will start to show wear after being inserted and removed a few times.

Are they kidding me??? And do you think that maybe, just maybe, then could have included a warning 30 $#%&ing pages ago to NOT assemble everything in final form??????


LoL. they're telling you to put something together because something else is dependent on you tightening, aligning, torquing something else. LoL. Mix 6 oz of Jim Beam with 6 oz of Coca Cola - it'l be all right!

Don't sweat the small stuff
(It's all small stuff)
 
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