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Door Lost In Flight

bruceflys

Well Known Member
I just saw an incident report that an RV-10, N316JS, lost a door in flight near Columbus, IN on Aug 22. The aircraft landed safely. Anyone know the details of what happened?
 
Make is secure...

I took a ride in a RV-10 located only about 25 miles from me. The owner said he lost a door right after take-off (again no one hurt).

I bought the plane around door pins and the 180 degree handle turn and the center cam lock. ALSO... I put the "DOOR OPEN" red warning light right in front of the pilot's view.
 
I just saw an incident report that an RV-10, N316JS, lost a door in flight near Columbus, IN on Aug 22. The aircraft landed safely. Anyone know the details of what happened?

In the past it's always been the same issue: the doors are flexible enough that it's possible to have the aft pin miss the engagement hole and slide outside the fuselage.
For myself, I do not allow unsupervised passengers to close any door.
I physically look at the aft edge of the doors at runup (checklist item).
I check the red idiot lights at runup.
 
Doors

With the plane around center cam latch, I can't see how it would be possible for the pins to be outside of the holes...
 
I was talking to a -10 driver at OSH who shared with me that the each model has it's weaknesses. For my -6A it's the nose gear (surprise == no) and that for the -10 it's the doors (surprise == yes)
 
In the past it's always been the same issue: the doors are flexible enough that it's possible to have the aft pin miss the engagement hole and slide outside the fuselage.
For myself, I do not allow unsupervised passengers to close any door.
I physically look at the aft edge of the doors at runup (checklist item).

I am absolutely convinced it is due to the door flexing as you close it.

I recently replaced the door lift struts, and now have a lot harder time getting the rear pin to engage correctly. I also do not let anyone to close the door unless I have briefed them about the process------and I feel the rear of the door as it is closing to be sure it is being pulled in and not out.

I believe most of the issue is that you are pulling on a handle at the front of the door, but the strut is pushing at the back of the door. This tends to induce a twist to the door frame, and the bottom rear corner to not seat all the way.

The Plane Around center latch is a fantastic design, I would advise anybody building a 10 to install one.
 
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Agree with Sean's system. Van's needs to step up and just make it part of the kit "vetterman" style.
 
Agree with Sean's system. Van's needs to step up and just make it part of the kit "vetterman" style.

Actually Van's already sells most of the components needed to make your own middle latch. I purchased two more C-1014 (handle spur gear) along with two C-1006B and C-1006C (handle pivots) and two C-RACK 10" pieces and basically added a "door latch" assembly about mid point on the door. The most involved part was machining the cam latch. Make a spacer block with a slight tapper and that gets through bolted to the mid cabin deck.

I have one picture of it installed, it's not the best shot.

yfd4l.jpg
 
I just saw an incident report that an RV-10, N316JS, lost a door in flight near Columbus, IN on Aug 22. The aircraft landed safely. Anyone know the details of what happened?

I am located at this airport and know the owner, though he had another pilot flying for him. I spoke with the pilot.

I'm not as familiar with the -10 as the -8 but my understanding as it was described to me is the door has pins that go fore and aft to lock the door in place. One pin was in, but the other was not properly seated and likely was on the exterior of the plane. The door just came off at a certain airspeed. It ripped off the hinge and some fiberglass surrounding it. The owner thought it would be be about a week to fix, so it sounded relatively minor.

The door was located in a bean field off the end of the runway unharmed.
 
With Sean's 180 degree design, the first 90 degree of handle rotation is used to pull the door in square.The pins have not yet extended into the frames.
Then with the last 90 degree rotation of the door handle the door pins have enough throw to extend through the door frames.

When correctly installed,the door has no choice but to close square with both pins engaging evenly.

I agree with Mike that after fitting the heavy duty door struts,the rear of the door does now twist more than it did.I had read about other builders filling their doors with some sort of expanding foam in an attempt to make the doors stiffer but have not read about anyone saying it made any difference.

At the very least, Sean's 180 degree cam latch design , should be standard on all Vans RV-10 kits.
http://www.planearound.com/NEW-DOOR-180-KIT-NEW180.htm

Cheers
 
Some of the door departures were because the rear pin was not engaged. Some had both pins engaged, and fully so. The center cam is a nice feature, but it does not solve the RV-10 door problem.
 
Some of the door departures were because the rear pin was not engaged. Some had both pins engaged, and fully so. The center cam is a nice feature, but it does not solve the RV-10 door problem.

Jesse,

Not trying to parse your words, but are you saying that even with the center cam engaged, the doors are still at risk of departing the aircraft?
 
Jesse,

Not trying to parse your words, but are you saying that even with the center cam engaged, the doors are still at risk of departing the aircraft?

That's what I am saying. I have experienced and seen and know of quite a number of cases where both door pins were fully engaged and the doors came open. The cam helps get he pin engaged, but it releases with the release of the handle as well. In the cases above, the handle rotated, releasing the pins, releasing the door.

Don't get me wrong, and I think I made this point earlier, I am not saying e cam doesn't serve a purpose, but with properly fit doors that are properly closed, they are not needed. On poorly fit doors or doors not closed properly, he cam does definitely help.
 
Both pins in

I bet the doors you speak of with both pins in had limited travel. I try to get over 1-1/4" of pin extension after the first 30 degrees of cam rotation. I honestly don't believe a properly built door with the 180 cam could come off. I guess you could push the button and rotate the handle to open the door in flight.

The cam's job is to line the pins up with the guides in the fuselage. There is no way to miss them with the cam working. Once the pins are in and they are over an inch there is no way the door will come off. I have heard of one delaminating in flight and there is nothing you can do to keep that from coming off!!

This is also a good time to tell new builders to NOT cut the gear racks per Vans' instructions IF they want more travel. There really is no reason to have 90-110 degrees of travel when you can have 180 by not cutting down the racks. (unless you have a flush handle with mechanical interference. BTW The Aerosport handles work with the 180) The racks come in 10 inch lengths. If you cut them in half (5 inches) you will have 180 degrees of travel. I have had numerous builders buy the 180 retro kit with the racks and half to pay more because they cut their racks too short per Vans' instructions.
 
Some of the door departures were because the rear pin was not engaged. Some had both pins engaged, and fully so. The center cam is a nice feature, but it does not solve the RV-10 door problem.

That's what I am saying. I have experienced and seen and know of quite a number of cases where both door pins were fully engaged and the doors came open. The cam helps get he pin engaged, but it releases with the release of the handle as well. In the cases above, the handle rotated, releasing the pins, releasing the door.

Don't get me wrong, and I think I made this point earlier, I am not saying e cam doesn't serve a purpose, but with properly fit doors that are properly closed, they are not needed. On poorly fit doors or doors not closed properly, he cam does definitely help.

Sorry Jesse, but I take exception to these statements.
I realize that it is somewhat personal in nature because at least one occurrence was with an airplane you were involved with to some degree?

It is highly doubtful that an RV-10 door could ever come open if both pins were engaged to the degree designed, and they did not move in flight because of some anomaly.

You say you know that quite a few have opened during flight with both pins fully engaged? It would be very unusual for that to be true and have that information not make its way back to Van's.

Doors that open in flight because the handle was move from the latched position should not be a surprise. Any more than an engine stopping because someone accidentally bumped toggle switches being used to control the ignition.

If there really has been quite a few, then I say there was quite a few airplanes that the latch system wasn't built or maintained properly.

If the doors and related systems are proper installed, and the doors are properly closed before takeoff, the doors will not come open. Period

I actually think the cam system is quite clever, and wish I had thought of it.
I also think it is quite expensive, so it is builder choice (part of being experimental) whether they want to invest in it or not.
I do not consider it an essential upgrade.
If pilots use the same level of care
with the doors, as they should with all other critical preflight items (including having a warning system installed and using it as part of their pre-takeoff check, the doors are safe as is.
 
I actually think the cam system is quite clever, and wish I had thought of it.
I also think it is quite expensive, so it is builder choice (part of being experimental) whether they want to invest in it or not.
I do not consider it an essential upgrade.
If pilots use the same level of care
with the doors, as they should with all other critical preflight items (including having a warning system installed and using it as part of their pre-takeoff check, the doors are safe as is.

Scott, this is where myself and many other RV-10 builders have a different opinion. The nice things about opinions is that there is no right or wrong opinion. :rolleyes:

Too expensive is always a relative term. It's not too expensive if it allows me more confidence that the doors are aligned properly and pins engaged as designed. I also agree that I prefer Sean's approach to have the pins engaged deeper into the cabin than the Van's plans.

Another opinion shared by many that the Van's latch design is way to frugal and poorly designed. Yes it's functional. But who wants a hole in the exterior of the door to collect water and other debris, plus it adds some minute level of drag.

Like I said, these are just opinions and may very well be viewed differently with people having different perspectives on the situation.
 
Agree...

Yes, too expensive is really a relative term when you are building a -10.

I have played with the doors on my -10 (with the center cam) and there is NO possible way that it can open once latched, and with the center cam, there is NO way the door will flex enough to leave a pin outside the door channel.

Now rotating the handle will obviously unlatch the door but you would consciously have to do it...not something that you could "bump' and have come open.

I agree that the plane around latch should be required on every -10...Great design!
 
Scott, this is where myself and many other RV-10 builders have a different opinion. The nice things about opinions is that there is no right or wrong opinion. :rolleyes:

Too expensive is always a relative term. It's not too expensive if it allows me more confidence that the doors are aligned properly and pins engaged as designed. I also agree that I prefer Sean's approach to have the pins engaged deeper into the cabin than the Van's plans.

Another opinion shared by many that the Van's latch design is way to frugal and poorly designed. Yes it's functional. But who wants a hole in the exterior of the door to collect water and other debris, plus it adds some minute level of drag.

Like I said, these are just opinions and may very well be viewed differently with people having different perspectives on the situation.

I should have clarified a little more and I need to revise my statement. I somehow had the idea that the kit was ~ $650. I found after making the post that it is $400 which is a lot better but still a bit pricey IMO considering what you get (but that might be what it costs to make it worthwhile for the seller... nothing wrong with that).

The standard design expects the pins to be deeply engage through the fiberglass and aluminum structure. The Delrin blocks are just there to act as a low friction guide to lead the pins into the holes in the structure.

I also understand the idea of piece of mind. That is why I said "builders choice" if they think the cost is worth it to them. I never said that I think people are wasting their building dollars buying the kit.

But having said that I will re-emphasize what I already said.....
If people use the level of care they should be while building and then operating the airplane, there wouldn't be any incidents of lost doors for us to talk about. But like you said.... just my opinion.
 
Agreed

Sean product is first class....would not build without. We look at it as cost of loosing door in-flight is potentially a much higher cost ( kinda like cost of failed governor)
The Vans warning indicator system is critical and should be test on occasion to make it is operating correctly...one thing I have thought could happen is one of the pins become disconnect inside the door linkage( pin loss or broken link) and have only one pin inserted... therefore the warning system will alert.
 
I agree with everyone...

I'd have to say I agree with most people and their perspectives on this. As Scott says, if you properly latch the doors there is almost no way for them to come off. I actually bought the planearound latch, but haven't yet installed it on my RV-10...my only excuse is procrastination and being busy building the RV-14 the past few years.

But, I also agree with Bob and Sean and all the others. I have said for a long time even when giving demo flights, that the very worst thing about the RV-10 design from a safety standpoint is the doors. The design is such that if you are the least bit sloppy in your preflight, and your doors have good tight seals, you're highly likely to have the rear pin not seat. At best, you will chip your paint off your door (I did) around the back pins. (I later protected it with a bent sheet of AL so that it doesn't gouge the paint anymore) At worst, you will lose your door.

I also thought I was immune to the issue, and that I'd never forget such a thing...properly latching the doors. There have been numerous reports of departing doors that I've heard of over the years. I'm guessing well into the teens or more. So early on I decided that this wasn't going to be something that happened to me. I vowed to only let me, or my family members, latch the doors...people who had it drilled into them on the issue and consequences. Then one day as I was departing Appleton for Oshkosh during the show, I was in the normal oshkosh hurry to get back to the show and after I was off the ground, found my daughter didn't have the aft pin seated on her door. I had her pull hard on the handle and hold the door in place while we contacted the tower and returned to the field to latch it. All ended up well. But, that was luck. There is a lot of suction pulling the door away from the plane when in flight. Having that extra cam in the middle is good not only for alignment, but for one more latching point to counteract this suction on a somewhat flexible door.

So I've said for years now, I think that latch should be made standard equipment on every RV-10. Don't build one without it. I wouldn't care if it was $750, if you build the plane without one these days, you're just being a nut and probably deserve the consequence...the information is out there.

I feel similarly about the safety trim system from TCW. Once you've felt how fast the trim operates, if left to high speed, when in cruise in an RV-10, you will realize how fast you can be up a creek if you have trim runaway. 1 second of trim is all it takes to get started on a very bad situation....2 seconds or more and you're probably already in trouble. Safety trim makes the entire stick wiring job MUCH much easier, and it solves multiple problems with one piece of hardware for under $400. These 2 items are things I think should be incorporated into every RV10 (and safety trim on the RV-14 also!!) that is out there. Yes, the ultimate in thorough preflight checks can cut the risk very far, but pilots are humans, and these things deserve the attention to take out some of the human factors. When all is said and done, you're out a few hundred bucks and have an airplane that operates better. If you're going to be a scrooge and go for ultimate in low cost, there are plenty of other places you can save money.
 
Then one day as I was departing Appleton for Oshkosh during the show, I was in the normal oshkosh hurry to get back to the show and after I was off the ground, found my daughter didn't have the aft pin seated on her door. I had her pull hard on the handle and hold the door in place while we contacted the tower and returned to the field to latch it. All ended up well. But, that was luck. There is a lot of suction pulling the door away from the plane when in flight. Having that extra cam in the middle is good not only for alignment, but for one more latching point to counteract this suction on a somewhat flexible door.

So I've said for years now, I think that latch should be made standard equipment on every RV-10.

Tim,
A warning indicator that will show that the door is not properly latched is part of the standard kit.
Do you have that installed?
 
I have the 180 degree cam system in the -10. My doors fit well enough that I think the pins would go in without it with the Mc Master seals. With the cam, there is no way to close a door and just get the front pin to start and have the rear pin not start also.

The warning system must be installed and tested with the pins not in the holes. If the magnets in the pin are actuating the magnetic switch with the pins outside the fueselage, the switch is in the wrong place and needs to be relocated.

The magnetic switch should not close until the handle is at least 150 degrees off fully open, more better, for the 180 degree system.

I have two red LEDs right above my main Skyview screen, impossible to overlook. If the door system warning is buried as part of your engine monitor it can be easily missed. I know how hurried or casual checklist use can get.

My magnetic switches are adjusted so closely that the passenger rear switch will not pick up about 5% of the time. I have to stop and reach around the seat to verify that the door is properly latched.
 
I wasn't happy with the magnets because of the fussy setup. This time I have SPST momentary switches for each pin. They feed into the EFIS individually and give a big screen warning, audio if you'd like. Part of pre takeoff is to crack a door latch and confirm two pin warnings. Also replaced the plastic plates with 3/4 aluminum blocks. They fill the pockets on the doors so they can't shuffle as much. Adds 3/4 inch engagement too.
 
So I've said for years now, I think that latch should be made standard equipment on every RV-10. Don't build one without it. I wouldn't care if it was $750, if you build the plane without one these days, you're just being a nut and probably deserve the consequence...the information is out there.

I disagree with your statement that the aftermarket latch needs to be made "standard".
When built according to plan with door pins engaging into the aluminum structure as intended, those doors will not come off. I have the indicator lights
installed as provided in the kit and did not install the knee jerk reaction
"patch latch" in the center, after several RVs 10s lost their door.

I let no one close the door except me and you are correct in that I deserve the consequences if I get careless. I regularly fly with my wife and kids and they are not allowed to close the door without me pulling the rear shut and observing the proper pin engagement while they close the handle.
I am not paranoid about it, it is just what I do and has become a habit.
"Doors closed" is a solid part of my checklist, both in engine start and run up sequence and includes visual verification and lights out directly in front of me,
above and outside of the EFIS clutter.
 
Two items

I have observed that some doors are more flexible than others. My theory is that insufficient bond was achieved when putting the two door haves together. My doors do not flex much. I have only the standard switch setup and it works as designed.

Item two. One of the checklist items should be a push outward on the rear of the door to check for movement. Belt and suspenders approach.

Gary Specketer
 
I have the 180 degree. With the cam, there is no way to close a door and just get the front pin to start and have the rear pin not start also.

My first 4 RV10's were all equipped with Vans standard latches, no issues that I am aware of but I haven't seen those planes in a while.

My 5th and 6th RV10's were equipped with the center latches AND the HD struts. As others have pointed out the HD struts do eliminate the door sagging but they also effect the twisting when the doors are closed by pulling on the door handle.

All of my planes were equipped with pull straps (as in old GM cars) that were located near the back of the doors. I always pull the door by the handle AND the strap then follow the procedure others have mentioned.

Point of this post: a few weeks ago I was watching the owner of the most recent 10 as he was preparing to taxi out for take off. I happened to notice that the door was not properly closed. After flagging him down and looking closer I saw that only the front pin was engaged, no cam engagement and the rear pin was on the outside of the plane. The light was on but he didn't notice. He is an elderly gentleman and a bit wider than average. In his case he did not use the rear pull handle AND when his left hand is on the door handle his forearm and elbow are in contact with the door. So, his forearm is acting as a lever (chicken wing) that keeps the center and aft section of the door OUT as the door is closing. So, at least in this example the front pin DID engage without the center cam engaging.

Without changing his habits and filling the checklist to a tee it's only a matter of time before he loses a door.

Watch your forearms and elbows, something to think about.

IMO Vans factory system is fine and if you desire the center cam that is fine. But neither are fool proof.
 
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I saw that only the front pin was engaged, no cam engagement and the rear pin was on the outside of the plane. The light was on but he didn't notice. ..... So, at least in this example the front pin DID engage without the center cam engaging.

I think if I TRIED, I could really twist my door to engage the front pin, and have the Planearound cam outside of it's engagement block (and the rear pin out, obviously). But at that point, I'm looking at daylight thru the bottom of my door, with a big enough gap that you could see the top of the wing thru the opening. If you miss something that obvious as well as the warning lights that will be illuminated, you might want to start using checklist, or maybe flying isn't a good hobby for you.
 
I have no horse in this race but will offer a comparison to another airframe type...

Glasair was dealing with owners of Glastar aircraft saying the cabin doors were too flexible and would pull outward at cruise speed, creating air leaks in the cabin. When they re-tooled to make the Sportsman, Glasair switched the upper half of the door to carbon fiber. This is the area of the door which has the least cross-sectional area, and, as proven with the Glastar, offered the greatest opportunity for door flex. By applying the lessons learned from the Glastar, the Sportsman door is considerably more rigid, with very few owners complaining of air leaks developing at cruise speeds.

With this in mind, if flexibility of the RV10 doors is a challenge to the integrity of the latching system, perhaps stiffening the doors through the limited use of carbon fiber in their layup would provide correction of the problem at a root cause level?
 
I'm somewhat amazed by this whole discussion, from way back when it first came up years ago. Admittedly, I'm not flying yet, and maybe something about putting in the windows or painting will change things. But my doors are not that flexible. When I fitted them and installed the nearly stock latching mechanism (I used aftermarket pin tips), I tested my ability to latch the door with only one pin. It took a LOT of force to twist the door so that one pin was out. That was with me reaching through the window opening so I could grab both sides of the door to twist it. It occurred to me that it might be different with the window in place, so I tried to block the rear of the door (saving my fingers, I used a wood block in the jamb, just thick enough that the pin would clear the side of the opening. From inside, I could not close the door enough to engage the front pin. From outside, I could lean on the door enough but it was really apparent that I was forcing it. My doors were assembled according to Van's instruction, no special reinforcing or anything. So I really don't understand how people are failing to engage both pins by accident. I'm not denying the anecdotal evidence, I just feel like we're not hearing the whole story.
 
With this in mind, if flexibility of the RV10 doors is a challenge to the integrity of the latching system, perhaps stiffening the doors through the limited use of carbon fiber in their layup would provide correction of the problem at a root cause level?
$400 for extra Carbon, or $400 for an extra latch, on a system that's been shown to work just fine without either when it's used properly.

I don't understand people suggesting that you'd be "nutty" to leave out the extra latch. With that attitude, you'd be nutty to not install a ballistic parachute.
 
The RV-10 door frames are already produced with strips of carbon fiber in strategic locations for extra stiffening.
 
, you might want to start using checklist,

Duh. Let's see:
Gust lock out
controls free and correct
trim set
Door latched, warning lights off.

The first 3 have been killing people even in certified aircraft for years. It's disappointing, but maybe not surprising, that some also ignore #4.
 
Door loss

Just another way of looking at this.
Suppose you build your plane without the door safety mechanism. You are careful and diligent and do not have a problem. But 4 years from now you lose your medical, or divorce, or whatever, and now need/want to sell your plane. A potential buyer is going to research the model and find out about the known door loss problem. Now, the potential buyer has several aircraft to choose from, and yours doesn't have the recognized fix for a known safety problem. I have to think this lowers value and ability to sell.
Now, suppose you are a good salesman and get it sold. The guy you sell it to isn't quite as careful and diligent as you, and two years later crashes after a door loss problem on takeoff. He's killed, and his 9 year old daughter in the right seat is badly injured and burned. Mom, (a separate party who was never made aware of the purchase of an aircraft with a known safety defect) who is divorced from Dad, is angry, and looking to punish (sue) somebody because of her daughter's injury. Van's points out that they recognized the problem long ago and developed a fix (not nearly as nice as the plane power kit) for the problem. The manufacturer (that would be you) chose not to install the safety kit.
Good luck with that in court.
I guess the question to me is this. The plane power kit is well made, an elegant design, and to my eye, the best solution to a known problem. Installing while building your aircraft is clearly easier than doing it after construction. It makes the plane safer (maybe not for you, but for others, in general) and more valuable.
Why wouldn't you install it initially?

John Koonce
N78MU
 
Why wouldn't you install it initially?

John Koonce
N78MU

Because you have to draw the line somewhere.
Lawyers will always find something to try to blame you. They'll ask:
Why didn't you install: thicker firewalls, fire suppression system, bladder fuel tanks, bigger fuel tanks, fuel vent by-pass, second engine, 4 attitude sources, 3 vacuum pumps, airframe parachute....?
At least the doors haven't killed anyone yet, and have most likely saved one.

The question of post-sale liability is a real concern, but a door latch is only the tip of the iceburg.
 
To answer the question posed to me a few posts earlier, yes, I do have the door latch warning installed. I also incorporated the latch warning into a car alarm system so that I have a regular key fob door alarm. It works great. I did not install an audible buzzer, just an indicator light. But, I find that indicator lights aren't fool proof, as people (including myself) can sometimes be fools. Whereas NovaBandit WITH the center latch, would never miss his door being latched because the gap would be huge if it wasn't, my doors without the center latch look fairly similar with and without the rear pin in it's proper position. It would not be impossible for someone to overlook it.
I will install the center latch as some point, but since I was flying over 10 years ago before such an elegant invention, it involves cutting my interior trim
and a bit more work. Also, my screw heads on the exterior of the door are embedded under epoxy, so I don't have easy access to remove the latch mechanism without repainting the doors. All this is the price I paid for being early in the completed builders (there were under 25 when I was flying). Everyone who is still building today is lucky to have such a good option.
 
Just an Observation

This was my first trip to Oshkosh and for a builder from Nth Queensland in Australia,to see so many RV-10's in one spot was amazing.

I saw many built to show plane status,some with lots of hours on them,I took many photos of builders ideas and mods.

Of the RV-10's that had the Planearound 180 deg door latch fitted. None had any paint chips around the rear door pin. ie the pin has never been trapped outside the rear of the door.

Of the RV-10's that did not have the Planearound 180degree door latch,I observed paint chips and damage around the rear door pin socket. Some builders had fashioned nice stainless wear pads to protect the paint.

I have only been flying for two years in my RV-10 and have so many non-aviation passengers for the local scenic flight.They all hop in and close the doors with no special briefing. I am very vigilant about my doors and it is on my checklist.
I have the Planearound 180 degree latch.

This is 2016 and clunky door operations should not exist ,for the sake of the fleets reputation,please re-look at your doors and if a non-aviation person can not hop in and close them without special briefing,please have another look at them.

Remember,these aircraft will be around for a long time and the RV-10 is known for many great qualities,it does not need to be known for this one average design area. We have the collective ability to make the RV-10 doors a non-conversation except how good gull wing doors look :))

If ever Vans designed the RV-10 Mk II,this area would be one of the first things to have a fresh look at.
 
I disagree with your statement that the aftermarket latch needs to be made "standard".
When built according to plan with door pins engaging into the aluminum structure as intended, those doors will not come off. I have the indicator lights
installed as provided in the kit and did not install the knee jerk reaction
"patch latch" in the center, after several RVs 10s lost their door.

I let no one close the door except me and you are correct in that I deserve the consequences if I get careless. I regularly fly with my wife and kids and they are not allowed to close the door without me pulling the rear shut and observing the proper pin engagement while they close the handle.
I am not paranoid about it, it is just what I do and has become a habit.
"Doors closed" is a solid part of my checklist, both in engine start and run up sequence and includes visual verification and lights out directly in front of me,
above and outside of the EFIS clutter.
I'm definitely in the "get a Planearound-type center cam installed standard" school. Several reasons for that:
  1. Before the center cam, under certain conditions, my doors could definitely be closed with the rear pins outside. I do have the Vans light system installed and it will show the condition. It is a checklist item and I'm religious about the pre-takeoff checklist. No one is allowed to latch the doors except me.
  2. I noticed that in flight, the doors bowed outward slightly apparently due to air pressure. The center cam prevents that.
  3. There are myriad modes of distraction that can challenge the pre-takeoff checklist and pilot-only door operation procedure. You may be disciplined enough to never allow such a distraction but my procedures failed one day and I did takeoff with a pin outside. Fortunately I was able to hold on to the (pilot) door until landing.
The more I fly the more respect I have for unexpected multiple distractions. The door can be tricky and it is critical so belts and suspenders are recommended by this pilot. Just another opinion...
 
As a side note, one of the early -10 builders had the pilot's door come off in flight, hit the HS, and twisted the entire aft fuselage.

There is a thread on it but the pictures were taken down.
 
question of false indicator reading-has it happened?

For those with 100s if not thousands of hours in the RV10, has anyone seen an occurrence where indicator light showed doors closed and in fact they were not latched properly? Just curious as I look at the mechanism used for "sensing" door latchment.
 
With almost 2000 hours now in mine and various other RV's, I have not seen the doors NOT be latched and the warning lights not work. That DOESN'T mean it can't happen. We always call "doors Latched" when rolling on to the runway for departure.

BTW, I concluded that a warning light which was always ON due to the doors being open could possibly be overlooked at a crucial time due to a distraction, such as Tower saying "depart immediately". Since we taxi around in Atlanta most of the time with the doors open due to the heat, I wanted something to get my attention when it is really warranted, so I wired the door warning circuit to a micro-switch on the throttle quadrant. Now the lights stay off for taxi but jump right out at me if I advance the power enough, such as for takeoff. :)

Vic
 
I love it-microswitch on the throttle

That is a clever way to keep awareness up and alive in the cockpit. I live in a dry heat, but 110 is hot regardless if dry or humid and boy does that big fan up front help...:rolleyes: I am planning to have it as red light when open and out when closed and agree with your point about working under stress at takeoff is a real factor we have to deal with when at busier and big airports. I plan to follow your lead on the micro-switch attached to the throttle (and use a bright red light right above the pilot EFIS).
Cheers, Mike
 
For those with 100s if not thousands of hours in the RV10, has anyone seen an occurrence where indicator light showed doors closed and in fact they were not latched properly? Just curious as I look at the mechanism used for "sensing" door latchment.

That actually happened to me when I had one of the screens replaced on my G-900X panel and the "canopy open" alert was mis-configured so that it worked in reverse of what it was supposed to do. Probably not the situation you were asking about but the result was the same.

-Marc
 
all examples are a good thing...

Thanks Mark, I think hearing of instances where changes in the panel can create "incorrect" readings is a good thing. It is a bit confusing with the way the magnetic sense switch is set up, seems like a double negative, but it works well when wired up right. And your right, my most pressing/direct question is can the latch be swung to closed position, but the pin is not in the catch, AND a positive light shows latched. Is the magnet close enough to give a latched reading (ever) when not fully engaged in the latch hole.
Cheers, Mike
 
I have close to the stock set up with the door sensors wired into my Skyview. I have not fitted the centre latch mod. I did, however, fit stainless steel instead of the plastic guides. I find that the magnetic sensors are extremely accurate and only give the signal on the absolute last bit of movement.

But.....on two of my early flights, I did manage to get the rear pin outside the frame but learnt from that and have not had a recurrence. My Before Take-Off Checklist (read from the QRH, not done from memory) includes "Doors Closed and Green" and "Caution and Warning Check" which is how I picked up my errors. I have now also included "Doors Closed and Green" in my Before Start Checklist and do not taxi with the doors open.

I'm with Scott on this one - a properly installed system that is checked closed before take-off cannot come open. There are many things that, if missed before take-off, can kill you. The answer is to be meticulous with your Before TO Checklist which should include ALL critical items and be read from a card.
 
Point of this post: a few weeks ago I was watching the owner of the most recent 10 as he was preparing to taxi out for take off. I happened to notice that the door was not properly closed. After flagging him down and looking closer I saw that only the front pin was engaged, no cam engagement and the rear pin was on the outside of the plane. The light was on but he didn't notice. He is an elderly gentleman and a bit wider than average. In his case he did not use the rear pull handle AND when his left hand is on the door handle his forearm and elbow are in contact with the door. So, his forearm is acting as a lever (chicken wing) that keeps the center and aft section of the door OUT as the door is closing. So, at least in this example the front pin DID engage without the center cam engaging.


IMO Vans factory system is fine and if you desire the center cam that is fine. But neither are fool proof.

It sounds like this example is from either a poorly constructed door or a bad installation of the cam or both. There is no way this could happen on my doors. I guess if I had the incredible hulk try to close the door with my leg hanging out it could happen.
 
Some EFIS will help with the install

With almost 2000 hours now in mine and various other RV's, I have not seen the doors NOT be latched and the warning lights not work. That DOESN'T mean it can't happen. We always call "doors Latched" when rolling on to the runway for departure.

BTW, I concluded that a warning light which was always ON due to the doors being open could possibly be overlooked at a crucial time due to a distraction, such as Tower saying "depart immediately". Since we taxi around in Atlanta most of the time with the doors open due to the heat, I wanted something to get my attention when it is really warranted, so I wired the door warning circuit to a micro-switch on the throttle quadrant. Now the lights stay off for taxi but jump right out at me if I advance the power enough, such as for takeoff. :)

Vic

The Dynon system has a feature not widely known that uses manifold pressure to act in the same way Vic used a microswitch so the canopy light is not on unless the power is advanced above idle. The feature is built in to all the Skyview units.

***Canopy- Locked*** Nice thing to add to your run up check. You are already safely stopped and have the power up. It is possible the others (Garmin, MGL, GRT etc) may have this now as well but if not, Vic's method will really help save the day.
 
The Dynon system has a feature not widely known that uses manifold pressure to act in the same way Vic used a microswitch so the canopy light is not on unless the power is advanced above idle. The feature is built in to all the Skyview units.

***Canopy- Locked*** Nice thing to add to your run up check. You are already safely stopped and have the power up. It is possible the others (Garmin, MGL, GRT etc) may have this now as well but if not, Vic's method will really help save the day.

Advanced Flight Systems has the feature as well, but uses engine RPM instead of MP. The RPM is set just below what you would normally use in a run-up so that during the run-up it checks for correct operation of the system (if you are purposely doing the run-up with the canopy/doors unlatched), or to warn you they are unlatched if you didn't do it on purpose.

All of our demo airplanes that have AFS or Skyview systems in the panels have them connected to sense switches to alert canopy unlatched if take-off power is applied.
Edit: And forgot to mention that our RV-14A demonstrator on the east coast with Mitch also has the capability with the G3X system, so that is at least 3 different systems that can attempt to save a pilot that hasn't discovered the error via check list, etc
 
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Just as another data point, the G3X touch system has the same feature as well, by configuring a discrete input function as either of the following:

From rev. Z of the install manual, pg 31-125:
1. Canopy Closed - Used with a switch that activates the input when the aircraft canopy is closed and locked. A solid yellow CANOPY OPEN message will appear on the PFD if the Canopy Closed input is not active. If engine power is increased or the aircraft is airborne, the CANOPY OPEN message will flash red and an alert tone will sound.

2. Door Closed - Same as Canopy Closed except alert text is DOOR OPEN.

Not sure what "engine power is increased" exactly means, but sounds like what you'd be looking for.
 
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