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HOW TO UPGRADE VFR TO IFR PANEL

fredycompean

I'm New Here
Can someone here guide me in the right direction? I want to convert my plane from VFR to IFR, so I can do my IFR training in my own plane.
Currently I only have two Dynon SkyView screens. Only one electric system with a small Odissey automotive battery, and no WAAS GPS.

Thanks in advance.

Fredy
 
The first place to start is 91.205 and then add in the navigation equipment suitable for the approaches available in your local area. While an IFR GPS isn’t technically required for IFR training or using the system, in practical terms in today’s airspace it’s becoming a must have. Also insure you get current 91.411 and 413 inspections. Probably a good idea to also look at your OPLIMs to insure that the standard wording allowing IFR flight if properly equipped is there too.
 
one IFR GPS with nav/com
one nav/com
one autopilot
two Archer wing tip nav antennas (don't use a single antenna with a splitter)
audio panel

The GPS is for the route, to locate fixes on non-gps approaches such as DME or NDB, and for gps approaches. The two navs are to locate fixes such as a localizer heading intersecting a VOR radial, and for localizer/vor/ils approaches. The two coms are to preset the atc/atis/tower/ground frequencies in advance because you are super busy close to the airport. The dual nav/coms also provide redundancy to themselves and to the gps. Backup batteries and alternators are determined by your personal risk tolerance versus a hit in empty weight; you need to think clearly and deeply about the mission goals.
 
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To add on to what Auburntsts posted, before even looking at what 91.205 says you need to find out what YOUR operations limitations say about this. Here in the US it "should" say something along the lines of: "After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with FAR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only." I know some experimental airplanes do not have this, or similar, statement in their OpsLims so check yours first to make sure.

However if your airplane is registered in Mexico, I don't know what is required. Check with the DGAC and see what they require.

:cool:
 
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1. Your post says you’re in Mexico. Canada has different rules than the US, so perhaps Mexico does too? You need to check.
2. If your rules are the same as the US, then the cheapest route (assuming you already have a Dynon Skyview, as you said) is to add a nav radio with VOR, localizer, and ILS, assuming there is an ILS (also with approved localizer only approach) and a VOR approach within a reasonable distance. Note the ILS or the other approaches may require a second VOR, or marker beacons, or DME, or maybe not.
You do not need a gps to take the test in the US. But, these days, for actual ifr, gps is very useful.
 
one IFR GPS with nav/com
one nav/com
one autopilot
two Archer wing tip nav antennas (don't use a single antenna with a splitter)
audio panel

Uh, no. Depending upon your local environment:
* One flip/flop comm with standby frequency monitoring works okay for IFR, as I've done for years. And if approach wants you to get weather and you don't have frequency monitoring, you can ask to go off frequency. Second comm is nice, but not necessary. I've had lots more problems with headsets than with radios.
* In 40+ years of instrument flying, I have never even heard of a general aviation plane having two nav antennae. Not once!
* The SL-30 was real cool in that one receiver could give cross bearings from a second VOR while the primary frequency was used for VOR or ILS guidance. These days, the GPS does all that cross bearing kind of stuff but even nicer -- with time and distance to the fix, no slant range correction, nothing. Yes, sometimes the military does jam GPS for practice, but not without warning. You can make your own decision on whether to fly in jamming or not.
* Autopilot is very handy for RVs with their frisky response to bumps, but you should be able to fly without it.

If you look at the history of general aviation avionics, it has historically been the case that pilots were trained to fly with lost capability -- for example, partial panel following suction failure, or no airspeed. With modern avionics, there's lots more capability, and the philosophy has crept in that the avionics should completely protect the pilot from loss of avionics capability. Don't be fooled into thinking that lots of extra gadgets will always provide this protection.

On my last IPC, a CFII "friend" and I did an interesting scenario, simulating loss of the entire electrical system. I turned off the left G3X Touch screen (his screen was still on to monitor engine, etc) and I used the G5 for flight guidance and the handheld aera660 for navigation. Then I shot an instrument approach, hand held. The navigation was sloppy, and it was a pain adjusting power based on throttle position (constant speed prop so no aural cues), but in reality, not all that hard to do. And I've flown coast to coast with a moving map hand held GPS with iPhone for backup.

It's a lot more important to know how to use what you've got than to add more and more stuff. And if you do have a lot of stuff, you should not have to have all of it working to fly -- you should be able to fly with some of it inoperative.

This pontification was written from a US pilot perspective. Your mileage will vary, of course.
 
Once you have figured out what you want take a real careful look at your current panel. I would suggest removing everything that doesn't really give you what you want/need. Don't try to make the panel work around what you have right now. It always seems attractive to go minimum change, but you may end up with a compromised system. The degree that the system s compromised my only become apparent once you start flying IFR when it is much more difficult to change.
Pete
 
Thank you all for your responses. I might bother you make sure I understood every thing correct. For the mean time, let me clarify that my plane is N tail number, and abbies by USA rules. I am Mexican, but hold an American certificate only. I can only fly N tail numbers. So I think it applies correctly as mentioned by you guys.
Thank you very much all of you! Glad I asked. I gotta do some studying about it.
Is it allowed here to ask about recommended service shops that could help out?

Thank you again

Federico
 
On my last IPC, a CFII "friend" and I did an interesting scenario, simulating loss of the entire electrical system. I turned off the left G3X Touch screen (his screen was still on to monitor engine, etc) and I used the G5 for flight guidance and the handheld aera660 for navigation. Then I shot an instrument approach, hand held. The navigation was sloppy, and it was a pain adjusting power based on throttle position (constant speed prop so no aural cues), but in reality, not all that hard to do. And I've flown coast to coast with a moving map hand held GPS with iPhone for backup.

I’ve shot the local VOR approach using just a Dynon D6 and a handheld older Sportys radio with to/from bearings only-no cdi. It’s quite doable once you figure out to fly it just like an NDB, but with a more accurate nav and no crosswind compensation to worry about in interpretation. Not really that hard.
+1 on the SL30. If gps goes OTS I can fly the nearby LOC approach, with a vor cross fix for the FAF, with just the SL30.
 
Steam VFR to IFR

I am also looking at upgrading to an IFR panel so I can get my rating using my own plane. Any suggestions would definitely help.
 

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If you are planning on using your plane for the IR check ride you are going to need a vor to do an ILS. To get the vor capability you are going to either change the SL40 to an SL30 or get a IFR navigator with a VOR receiver.
Replace the Bendix King with an IFR navigator. A GTN 750 or Avidyne IFD 5XX would fit nice there $$$$. Then you will need to replace the DG with a HSI. You could use an AV-30 or G5. I would also consider replacing the AI with an AV-30 or G5. The big bucks in making the change is going to be the IFR navigator.
 
I am also looking at upgrading to an IFR panel so I can get my rating using my own plane. Any suggestions would definitely help.

If you just want to get your ifr rating, with cost a major concern, swap the SL-40 for an SL-30. Look around your area for a VOR approach, LOC, and ILS that have at most VOR cross fixes, no DME, no marker beacons required. If you have these locally, then the only other thing you need is a CDI. As mentioned above, replace your DG with a G5, or a GRT Mini, or a Dynon D10, to get both a DG and a CDI.
Once you get the rating, get some experience, decide what capability you want, how many backups you’re comfortable with, and of course, if you want/need a TSO’d GPS. You’ll probably decide to completely re-do the panel.
 
Why not just add a GPS175 and GA35 antenna?
Autopilot is VERY nice for IFR but not necessary.
 
Why not just add a GPS175 and GA35 antenna?
Autopilot is VERY nice for IFR but not necessary.

I see an autopilot there. He has several issues with his very nice classic panel:
1. For taking the instrument flight test, he needs a VOR (there is some debate about this and some examiners will test without this, but be aware).
2. The TSO on the gps requires mounting ‘near’ the AI (the TSO gives dimensions). Far right side is not approved. A lot of stuff needs moving.
3. He needs a CDI. Garmin’s stand-alone unit costs more than a mini EFIS!
 
For Basic IFR, I Would Do GPS Only

I see an autopilot there. He has several issues with his very nice classic panel:
1. For taking the instrument flight test, he needs a VOR (there is some debate about this and some examiners will test without this, but be aware).
2. The TSO on the gps requires mounting ‘near’ the AI (the TSO gives dimensions). Far right side is not approved. A lot of stuff needs moving.
3. He needs a CDI. Garmin’s stand-alone unit costs more than a mini EFIS!

1. There shouldn't be a debate about this (straight from the current IFR ACS):
Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance (LPV Minimums)
Localizer performance with vertical guidance (LPV) minimums with a decision altitude (DA) greater than 300 feet height above touchdown (HAT) may be used as a nonprecision approach; however, due to the precision of its glidepath and localizer-like lateral navigation characteristics, an LPV minimums approach can be used to demonstrate precision approach proficiency if the DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT.
Basically, if you shoot an LPV approach with a DA > 300ft, counts as a non-precision, < 300ft, counts as a precision.

2. Quoting from an old kit planes article article:
Some manufacturers detail additional requirements in their respective installation manuals. For example, guidance for the Garmin GNS530W specifically dictates the display must be positioned within 13.8 inches of pilot centerline of vision in order to use the internally displayed annunciators. Garmin goes on to state that if you use a CDI/HSI (for many of us that means EFISes [today could mean the G5]) with built-in nav annunciation, then that unit must be within 16.8 inches of the pilot centerline of vision. The result is that we all agree there isn’t an end all specification for installing any IFR GPS in a plane. The only way to be sure is to follow the recommendations of each manufacturer.
I don't think much has changed on this front regarding the TSO's, but my reading of this that either the GPS box itself (therefore the screen based annunciator telling you are on a valid approach) needs to be within 13.8 inches OR you need a separate annunciator telling you the same thing, but within 16.8 inches of centerline. The G5 may very well fulfill that requirement by effectively being a remote annunciator and presumably installed right below the AI (in DG mode or whatever Garmin calls it)

3. The AV-30 doesn't (currently) have the capability to be an IFR CDI, but works really well as a "GPS HSI (VFR only)", but still doesn't give vertical guidance. A Garmin G5 can operate as an IFR CDI, with horizontal and vertical guidance, but only when coupled to an IFR GPS (with or without NavComm), but only with a GAD29 (ARINC -> CanBus converter box, about $500) and I think (can't remember) also in that case requires the GMU11 (Magnetometer, about $300).
 
1. There shouldn't be a debate about this (straight from the current IFR ACS):

Basically, if you shoot an LPV approach with a DA > 300ft, counts as a non-precision, < 300ft, counts as a precision.

You’re looking in the wrong section of the ACS. Look at the requirement of ‘two non-precision approaches, each using a different type of nav-aid’. Then there’s a list. GPS can be one. What’s the other? As I said, some examiners interpret this differently. But others require one non-gps non-precision approach.
 
Thanks for suggestions

I really want to fly IFR because I have been stuck in a few places due to low clouds. It certainly looks like with all the new electronic equipment, and having to relocate the GPS within view of the "6-pack", a new panel is the way to go. The current panel was built by Chief Aircraft in Oregon back in 2006.

Gets more expensive every time I think about it.

Thanks for the info.
 
The Debate®

You’re looking in the wrong section of the ACS. Look at the requirement of ‘two non-precision approaches, each using a different type of nav-aid’. Then there’s a list. GPS can be one. What’s the other? As I said, some examiners interpret this differently. But others require one non-gps non-precision approach.

Your right, there is debate about that part. :D We will leave that debate for another thread. ;)

If this thread is more about The Other Debate® of whether to equip with ground based nav IFR, my vote is no, even knowing you would want to do your checkride in your own plane. If you can't find an amenable DPE, it is probably still cheaper to do all your training in your GPS only plane, and either do a couple transition hours and the checkride in a rental with the same GPS, but also a VOR/LOC, or do the checkride in yours and discontinue for that one other non-precision approach and do it in a rental. Either way, having an amenable DPE really makes it all smoother. The price delta for even basic VOR/LOC/ILS equipment and the maintaining of it more than makes up the difference needed in rental hours. Having done a few check rides, I understand the downsides to that idea, so I would shop around for a DPE who interprets it in a favorable way.

OP was in Mexico though it seemed like, they may need almost all ground based nav there, not sure of the availability of GPS approaches.
 
To OP#2:
As you can see everyone will give you their opinion. Most will agree that the minimum required by law is not enough. How much more you need is the hard question, which is why I suggested getting the bare minimum (swap the SL40 for an SL30, plus indicator), get your rating, decide for yourself your risk tolerance.
 
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