Van's Air Force
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RV-7 or RV-8 for Air Racing
- Thread starter joe1968
- Start date
Tom Martin
Well Known Member
If you look at the statistics from the SARL, Sport Air Racing League, the RV8 will have faster top speeds, on average, then the RV7. Some of the RV8s with increased HP and airframe clean ups are getting impressive speeds.
The RV4 should not be discounted as a racer.
Keep in mind that race categories are based on engine displacement, thus a 390 will be in a different class then a 360 or a 320,or a 540 for that matter.
What you will find with racing is that of although you want to win each race, after a while you want to show improvement of both yourself and your airplane and it becomes a bit like golf in that regard.
It is a lot of fun and I highly recommend both the sport and those that participate.
The RV4 should not be discounted as a racer.
Keep in mind that race categories are based on engine displacement, thus a 390 will be in a different class then a 360 or a 320,or a 540 for that matter.
What you will find with racing is that of although you want to win each race, after a while you want to show improvement of both yourself and your airplane and it becomes a bit like golf in that regard.
It is a lot of fun and I highly recommend both the sport and those that participate.
Billythekid
Well Known Member
Golf is harder than flying. And you can't out run money.
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
About 5 years ago I averaged the race speeds that Bob Axsom had compiled up to that point, and the RV-8 came out about 10 mph faster on average than the 6/7. However there is a large amount of variance; I can attest that a side-by-side with increased HP can be faster than a tandem model with a stock engine for example.
Tom's point about trying to improve your own performance rather than focusing on how fast the others are going is a good one. Its difficult to find speed gains in the RV airframe, but very satisfying if you do.
Tom's point about trying to improve your own performance rather than focusing on how fast the others are going is a good one. Its difficult to find speed gains in the RV airframe, but very satisfying if you do.
rvmills
Well Known Member
Joe,
Good points from all, for sure. As Alan said, the SARL speeds show 8s typically outrun 7s. But racing is not always typical!
While John Huft's 8 was the fastest RV Blue for a long time...until he moved up to RV Gold to race the 390s, the current fastest RV Blue is Jeff Barnes' 6. Jason Rovey has an 8 that is faster, but he's been focusing on Reno.
If you buy a 7 for the SBS seating, you might look for one that was built with an 8 tail (some are). The 8 tail is smaller, with a smaller counterbalance, and is likely a bit faster. That won't overcome the frontal area challenge, but there are many "tricks up sleeves" to incorporate to be the fastest 7 you can be. Steven Christopher is doing that at Reno these days too.
So like Tom said, have fun making your plane the fastest it can be! He also told me the day we first met at a race (as I was admiring his many mods), "Bob, you will never look at your plane the same after today's race". Boy was he right!
And don't forget Enzo Ferrari's emphasis on HP...that works too!
Cheers,
Bob
Good points from all, for sure. As Alan said, the SARL speeds show 8s typically outrun 7s. But racing is not always typical!
While John Huft's 8 was the fastest RV Blue for a long time...until he moved up to RV Gold to race the 390s, the current fastest RV Blue is Jeff Barnes' 6. Jason Rovey has an 8 that is faster, but he's been focusing on Reno.
If you buy a 7 for the SBS seating, you might look for one that was built with an 8 tail (some are). The 8 tail is smaller, with a smaller counterbalance, and is likely a bit faster. That won't overcome the frontal area challenge, but there are many "tricks up sleeves" to incorporate to be the fastest 7 you can be. Steven Christopher is doing that at Reno these days too.
So like Tom said, have fun making your plane the fastest it can be! He also told me the day we first met at a race (as I was admiring his many mods), "Bob, you will never look at your plane the same after today's race". Boy was he right!
And don't forget Enzo Ferrari's emphasis on HP...that works too!
Cheers,
Bob
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C-FAH Q
Well Known Member
Hooked
Check this thread out.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=51044
It hooked me on racing
Check this thread out.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=51044
It hooked me on racing
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Interesting that the fastest of the fast homebuilts, including the NXT, are SBS. And NXT was for all intents a purpose built racer. I know we are talking RV's here, but the SBS seating is often not much if any penalty for a properly executed design.
side by side vs tandem
A lot of it depends on details. The RV6 I raced in 2014 was built by Tracy Saylor. He worked on drag reduction for years while doing cross country races. To the 180hp LYC he added high compression pistons from lycon and lightspeed electronic ignition. It was carbureted so no cold air sump but it went 221mph around the sport course at Reno. Unfortunately it was totaled by a CB while parked. The RV4 that I raced in 2015 was running the same engine and prop combo from the RV6 but qualified at 216.6mph with less frontal area so airframe and cooling drag makes a big difference. Hopefully I can get some of the airframe cleanups finished this year to at least bring it up to match the 6's speed.
Any of them can be good racers. I like the side by sides for giving rides and the extra panel space but for the time being I'm enjoying the tandem.
Charlie
A lot of it depends on details. The RV6 I raced in 2014 was built by Tracy Saylor. He worked on drag reduction for years while doing cross country races. To the 180hp LYC he added high compression pistons from lycon and lightspeed electronic ignition. It was carbureted so no cold air sump but it went 221mph around the sport course at Reno. Unfortunately it was totaled by a CB while parked. The RV4 that I raced in 2015 was running the same engine and prop combo from the RV6 but qualified at 216.6mph with less frontal area so airframe and cooling drag makes a big difference. Hopefully I can get some of the airframe cleanups finished this year to at least bring it up to match the 6's speed.
Any of them can be good racers. I like the side by sides for giving rides and the extra panel space but for the time being I'm enjoying the tandem.
Charlie
To further your point here ...
Not long ago, I had a discussion with "Van the Man" and mentioned my belief that an equally equipped RV8 would be quite faster that an RV6/7 due to less frontal area. I basically got a "not so fast Grasshopper". I don't want to misquote him but basically I recall him saying that from *their* perspective this was not the case.
I think there are other contributors to drag that we don't factor in.
I remember this because it was so counter intuitive and I was **NOT** about to even think about disagreeing with him on this matter.
So... It seems that you go with what you like and just do the things to make THAT plane fast.
James
Tom Martin
Well Known Member
If you're thinking racing anyway you've got to have deeper (on average) pockets than someone just building for fun flying... So i'm curious: Why not a Rocket?
There are many SARL racers that are flying mostly stock airplanes. After guys get involved and get hooked then the bug sets in and modifications start. A lot of those modifications cost next to nothing other then time. By that I mean faring, cowling, wing tip mods etc.
Engine changes are never inexpensive but there are many non racers that have higher compression pistons etc.
As I stated in an earlier post much of the challenge is becoming a better pilot. I would take a look at my "track" after some of my early races and I was all over the place. We have all gotten use to flying the "magenta" gps line and there is a lot of lee way for side to side errors when you are hand flying a race course. These little errors add up to extra distance. Auto pilots are not much use on some of the courses that have a lot of turns and thus you have to do a better job with heading! just like we used to do before gps.
Turns provide an area for constant improvement. Not every plane, or pilot, handles turns exactly the same way. Do you go wide, not to burn off speed but use more distance, or do you turn tight, with g's, loose speed, but cover a shorter distance? These few simple things can, and do, add more to your speed then $ thrown at the airplane.
Many races have been won by simply guessing better at upper winds; is it worth the climb for another 2 knots? stuff like that.
There are many SARL racers that are flying mostly stock airplanes. After guys get involved and get hooked then the bug sets in and modifications start. A lot of those modifications cost next to nothing other then time. By that I mean faring, cowling, wing tip mods etc.
Engine changes are never inexpensive but there are many non racers that have higher compression pistons etc.
As I stated in an earlier post much of the challenge is becoming a better pilot. I would take a look at my "track" after some of my early races and I was all over the place. We have all gotten use to flying the "magenta" gps line and there is a lot of lee way for side to side errors when you are hand flying a race course. These little errors add up to extra distance. Auto pilots are not much use on some of the courses that have a lot of turns and thus you have to do a better job with heading! just like we used to do before gps.
Turns provide an area for constant improvement. Not every plane, or pilot, handles turns exactly the same way. Do you go wide, not to burn off speed but use more distance, or do you turn tight, with g's, loose speed, but cover a shorter distance? These few simple things can, and do, add more to your speed then $ thrown at the airplane.
Many races have been won by simply guessing better at upper winds; is it worth the climb for another 2 knots? stuff like that.
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
The Rockets race in a different class in the SARL-sponsored races, due to having more displacement (6-cylinder). They're not directly competing with the RVs, except at Reno. If maximum speed is the sole consideration and money no object, you'd probably want to be looking at something in a Lancair or NXT?
The most popular RV class in the SARL races is RV-Blue, which means 360 cu. in. (either carb or FI). There can be a wide range of HP represented within this class, anywhere from 180 to 220+. Some of the more dominant racers have had engines modified to perform at the higher end of this range (including the current SARL Experimental champion).
I have found that there is still plenty of fun to be had racing with a stock engine however! You may also feel better its reliability when you're flying over mountains or with your SO.
