Test flight delayed by slow VPX customer support

I've been reluctant to post a negative review on a company as i know the impact it can have. To date i've posted only positive reviews on companies that i feel have gone the extra mile with customer service. There have been many awesome people that have helped me along the way in building my 7A.

This time around I feel i want to vent my frustrations. With the first flight a few days away after a 4.5 year slow build, my VPX has developed a fault, the flaps won't go down. I've trouble shooted with the help of Chad at VPX (he's been very helpful) and it seems to be an internal issue. The unit has to come out which is not easy when mounted under the front panel of a tipper.

My real frustration is VPX have no loan units left, all 3 are out until after Oshkosh. On top of this they are taking around 10 business days to bench test units. This is likely to cause at least a month's delay as shipping to and from the UK adds a few days either end. Plus i have to stump up the shipping cost back to the USA.

Not sure if i've just been unlucky, i also had to send back a brand new defective Dynon Skyview 10 inch display. Again, no leniency shown with my shipping costs. At least that went **** up during the build.

At the moment i wish i had installed a less complex system

While I clearly understand your frustration, you are experiencing attributes of building your own aircraft compounded by the geographical distance from the equipment manufacturer..

It sounds to me as if Chad and VP are provided good support. They have loaners, which very few vendors supply. It's just bad luck that all their loaners are unavailable in your timeframe. How many vendors give you the personal attention that Chad has? Be thankful that VP doesn't have the large fixed repair fees that Garmin has, then it would be much worse than just the return shipping.

I can tell you three other well known vendors that have similar or longer bench queues, one of them is a very large company with extremely more staff than its competitors. Unfortunately, many of the vendors are small companies and don't have the staff to bench test and turn things around in a day. It's just something that we have to deal with when building EAB aircraft.

Look on the bright side, the month delay will allow you to have an electrical system and EFIS that should work as anticipated and not cause any distractions during your first flight. Just as a point of reference, I got my airworthiness cert in July and my first flight wasn't until October. I wanted to ensure that everything was working 100%. Even though I thought I had everything covered, I still had a failure of the mechanical fuel pump on a brand new Lycoming.

I know that within my group that is part of the one largest business jet OEM Customer Support organizations, preventing an aircraft AOG is a high priority. When we have a component with a reliability that is not meeting the Mean Time Between Unscheduled Removal (MTBUR) target we alway make sure that we have enough loaner units to cover any unscheduled removals. I question if three loaner units is enough if they are all currently on loan and there is a waiting list for one.

I realize there is a big difference in company size, however customer support should not be any different.

curtis said:

I know that within my group that is part of the one largest business jet OEM Customer Support organizations, preventing an aircraft AOG is a high priority. When we have a component with a reliability that is not meeting the Mean Time Between Unscheduled Removal (MTBUR) target we alway make sure that we have enough loaner units to cover any unscheduled removals. I question if three loaner units is enough if they are all currently on loan and there is a waiting list for one.

I realize there is a big difference in company size, however customer support should not be any different.

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But that is a key difference, you are supporting business jets for corporate use. Very few of the experimental avionics vendors supply loaners to the EAB market. There just isn't the revenue and margins to support that level of service.

I was AOG for almost three weeks while my GTN-650 was returned to Garmin for repair. There was no option of a loaner. There was a $975 flat repair fee and I had to pay shipping both directions. Garmin also insisted on shipping the unit to the reseller and not back to me direct. That added over a week in delay, since the reseller was on the other side of the country.

I'm not being critical of Garmin, although I do believe that they need to rethink their shipping policy for the EAB market. I just want to use it as an illustration a large market leader handles this situation.

Would it be nice if VP had more than three units? Sure. But on the other hand, it's three more than Garmin had in my situation. My personal experiences with other vendors that service the EAB market have similar policies as Garmin in that loaners are not provided in a AOG situation.

I am also aware of situations where EAB vendors have gone beyond the anticipated service levels when somebody is truly AOG away from home. It is my opinion that expecting AOG expedited service before first flight will lead to disappointment with most vendors not meeting those expectations.

VPX Support is excellent

I'm with Bob on this one. I've had a couple of chances to work with VP's customer service and I have to tell you it was nothing short of excellent. That said I know it's hard when you are close and need it now so I feel for you. I love my VPX and I bet you will too when the dust settles.

Hang in there and the best of luck on your first flight.

Darin

Having your plane down sucks.

Any right before/after first flight is even worse.

I got in my first flight and a couple more, then we have almost three weeks of rain every day (I'm on a grass strip). My wife thought my head was going to explode...

I have found, almost without exception that the support for the EAB market has been incredible.

I got stuck for a day in Virginia last week with my 9A. I spent all day troubleshooting what ultimately turned out to be just a lose nut on the master solenoid. It one point I was trying to figure out if the problem might be related to the VPX, or if they might have some ideas as to what could be going on (intermittent electrical failure). I sent Chad an e-mail asking for help, and he called me withing 10 minutes. On an issue that I bet he was 99% sure had nothing to do with his product. He then proceeded to spend almost 30 minutes on the phone helping me eliminate things, most of which had nothing to do with the VPX.

-Dan

One concept which is worthy of consideration is the concept of self-sparing. I know this is a painful thought, but when dealing with a long, thin supply line, sometimes it is the only option when dealing with a critical component which has a higher-than-expected MTBUR. If you have a somewhat uncommon part installed in a critical function on your aircraft, you may want to consider holding your own spares.

I am aware of another builder who experienced a VPX failure just prior to first flight. The turn-around-time for diagnosis and repair was a concern, as was the fact that such a critical single point of failure could cause the aircraft to be AOG for extended periods of time. After giving these factors due consideration, the builder bought a brand new VPX unit and installed it while waiting for his repaired unit to be returned. He now has that repaired unit on the shelf as a readily-available spare.

This is an excellent lesson for those of us who want to add automation and complexity in our aircraft. Many of these devices are rather low production volume and not commonly available at airports where we might become stranded. As this example illustrates, a VPX isn't like an MS switch or circuit breaker in terms of ready availability for replacement in the field.

David,
If the only thing preventing first flight is the VP-X flap control, you could consider temporarily hooking it to a manual flap switch like many RV's have.

With an hour of work you can probably have a switch mounted and wired that will let you control the flaps, and then you can get on with the business of getting that plane in the air.

Unfortunately it's the nature of the Experimental aircraft parts business that long response times happen around Oshkosh and Sun-n-Fun dates. Smaller companies send their folks out on the road at these times, often losing more days with long cross-country drives.

These two shows inspire our specialty suppliers so overall it's probably good for builders, you just seem to have caught the wrong time to have equipment issues.

I appreciate everyone's responses. Always good to get a range of opinions, all of which are valid.

Rewiring the flaps won't completely solve the issue as at some point i would have to return to the VPX for repair.

As of yet, i'm waiting to see if VPX are willing to create a fourth loan unit. Now that would be exemplary customer service.

Otherwise ill have to sit it out.

David - it is very much worth your while to survey your fellow countrymen who are building airplanes. One of them might have a VPX sitting on their shelf, not yet installed, or installed in an airplane that is months away from flying. Most of us in this strange little world of airplane building are more than willing to help out a fellow builder, and most would be eager to play a positive role in getting your bird off the ground. This might be your closest/quickest/easiest/cheapest way of getting a loaner while yours is repaired.

VPX serviceability

This was one of the reasons i went for switches and breakers in that i had read of this problem of servicibility and chose the manual breaker system.

Nice system but the whole thing goes down over one item inside seems to me. Whereas if the flap breaker goes you have ways around that problem.

Nice system all the same and seems to me if i had the extra 1500 dollars around i would own a second VPX as backup. Of course that is my problem,,,,, i never had the 1500 around in the first place and at auction i bought a whole panel full of used breakers for 40 dollars.

Good luck and hope you get it flying soon

My sympathies, Dave.

If you read the LAA magazine a couple of months ago concerning IFR approval, you remember that they said they were unlikely to approve aircraft with VPX fitted for just this sort of reason.

I share your frustration with the distance issue - I just had some brake parts from VANS which were wrong! Hang in there, it finally happens - today , for me, all being well

FWIW & maybe help others, I planned for maybe the possibility of a VP-x issue ( would do so anyway regardless of what system I used) & did as the manual suggested re backup power.

In my case I have backup power (bypasses VP-x) , via covered switches, directly from the battery to GPS/Com, Auto pilot & fuel pump. This setup (with backup batteries on both Efis systems) will get me home or on ground, if IFR, safely. Flaps I can live without in that situation. You can do this for whatever circuit you need.

The VP-X has so many features & benefits that I just couldn't see doing it any other way when I did a recent refurbish of our aircraft.

Bob Nuckoll's musings also provide for redundant electrics, worth a good read IMO.

To me depending on one system totally is like having only one ignition system, I just provided for more options

Be happy you are on the ground when both items failed. You can use the time to plan a retro fit back up panel and power arrangement for down the road if that becomes more attractive.

Hi guys...with Oshkosh next week, I haven't had a lot of time to keep tabs on the forums, but David and I have been talking regularly through email and I am doing everything I can to expedite his issue. We do have 3 Pro loaners and 3 Sport loaners that are available to our customers, and specifically AOG situations. While continually evaluating our loaner needs, 3 of each has worked out 99% of the time...AirVenture and a couple of units being out on loan already has caused the issue we are working on now with David. This is an unusual situation so I appreciate the understanding.

paul330 said:

My sympathies, Dave.

If you read the LAA magazine a couple of months ago concerning IFR approval, you remember that they said they were unlikely to approve aircraft with VPX fitted for just this sort of reason.

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Since this came up, I do want to make a quick mention that we had an excellent phone conference with the LAA yesterday to address any and all concerns they had and I'm happy to report that we now have an open door with them to be sure they have what they need to approve installations in the UK. This was a big win regarding use of the VPX in the UK.

VPX....$1500

DPDT (on)off(on)....$9

This thread....priceless

my experience

When/If I build my next airplane, I will, while shopping for parts and avionics, ask the suppliers if there warranty includes the costs of shipping a defective item back and forth and if they cover the costs of shipping a loaner unit.

I have had to foot the shipping costs for the following items that were repaired/replaced under warranty.

Dynon Skyview display (before first flight)

skyteck starter (only way for this was to purchase a new starter along with paying for return shipping on failed starter back to them for reimbursement)

EGT Probe (not working out of the package)

Dynon backup battery

Lightspeed ignition (2 times and paid shipping on loaner unit both ways first time unit was returned without being fixed)

If new suppliers will provide me with shipping services on there own defective items both ways, it will be considered when making selections.

DanH said:

VPX....$1500

DPDT (on)off(on)....$9

This thread....priceless

Click to expand...

Twist the wires together = no $

Kind of like the difference between a computer and a pencil. Both work, one requires more up front costs and some long term costs ($$$ for the purchase then understanding how to operate the darned thing), the other requires very little up front costs but some long term costs (?? to purchase then knowledge on how to actually add, subtract, multiply and divide without a machine doing it for you).

I had multiple issues with my VP-X sport pre and post first flight. They ended up fixing it twice and the third time swapped me a new unit, which has been working fine for the last 10 months.

It is a real pain to be kept down when you pull the unit, but the functionality, features and ease of use really make it worth it to me.

As they say, hindsight is an exact science. Dont get me wrong, i love the flexibility and functionality of the VPX and Chad has been very attentive. Im confident they will come up with the goods.

Today i read of a first flight of a 26 year build for an RV6 so in the grand scheme of things, i few more weeks wont matter, just frustrating. Today a flat battery thwarted our first attempted engine start. All part of the RV experience.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Next time around (at the moment i can't foresee that but never say never) i would wire the flaps, GPS and fuel pump on separate CB's.

bruceh said:

I had multiple issues with my VP-X sport pre and post first flight. They ended up fixing it twice and the third time swapped me a new unit, which has been working fine for the last 10 months.

It is a real pain to be kept down when you pull the unit, but the functionality, features and ease of use really make it worth it to me.

Click to expand...

Bruce, i followed your builder's log avidly - it was a massive help to my own build. I saw your VPX issues and i smugly thought that wouldn't happen to me

For the record, my VP-X Pro has been rock solid during ground test, and the few times I've needed support were handled satisfactorily. My only complaint about Vertical Power is that they need to release an updated version of their manual.

update - the frustration continues

Time to vent some more

I'm still waiting for the loan unit to be sent over. Oshkosh got in the way and their recently returned loaner unit has the incorrect flap board in it so that needs changing. Chad at VPX has been ever responsive and yet other "priorities" seem to get in the way.

Whilst i appreciate and respect other's views, lets not forget this is a brand new unit that's been bench run for no more than a few hours. The plane has yet to leave the ground.


I run my own business and bend over backwards to give good customer service. By my standards, Ballard and VPX have fallen short of my benchmark. I'm prepared to stump up the differential cost in getting a new unit sent over so i don't have to get under the hood twice, once to remove the dud and put in the loaner unit and then to reinstall my repaired unit once its returned.

For me, good customer service would have been for VPX to have offered this a solution from the getgo, with them stumping up all costs for transport. At the moment Chad has agreed to waive the cost of getting the loaner unit over to me. Beyond that, it looks like its down to me. Maybe things are different in the USA - it sees common the customer has to cover the cost to return a new defective unit for repair - im not sure such practice would be gotten away with in the UK. Over here, a new unit would be supplied as the original would have been deemed unfit for purpose under our trading standards.

The lesson is make sure your build in redundancy for critical flight controls, the technology is not robust enough to rely upon 100%.

david.perl said:

I'm still waiting for the loan unit to be sent over, so my plane sits on the tarmac gathering dust. Oshkosh got in the way and the recently returned loaner unit now has the incorrect flap board in it so that needs changing. Whilst this may be true, these are still excuses for Ballard / VPX not taking responsibility.

Whilst i appreciate and respect other's views, lets not forget this is a brand new unit that's been bench run for no more than a few hours. The plane has yet to leave the ground.

Good customer service would have been a new replacement unit fedexed over immediately (at the supplier's cost) and the dud unit returned (again at their expense) for them to deal with in any way they .

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I totally understand your frustration which is further complicated by purchasing from a vendor overseas.

I chose to minimize the number of overseas vendors in my build in my RV. I have only one and its UK based. If you do a search, you'll find similar rants about customer service about them too.

I think your expectations need to be reset. Comparing the experimental avionics vendors with a Sony or Panasonic, etc, is not a fair comparison. In my experience, I have never had a vendors swap a unit with a new one. I'm sure it may happen. What I have experienced is that the vendors will usually make one attempt to repair the unit. Most vendors don't have the resources to junk a unit and send you a new one. At least VP has a limited loaner program. Many other vendors don't.

The well know fact is that the week before, the week of, and the week after, mamy experimental vendors are just about shut down for Oshkosh. Not much gets done because there are only so many hours in a day and they don't have enough staff to meet all the needs.

Here's another benchmark with a well know, much larger company. I had a fuel pump die on my io-540 on my first flight. The part is covered under Lycoming warranty. Their warranty process was to purchase the $500 part from one of their distributors, then submit a warranty claim back through the distributor when you return the bad part. The process took almost six months before I was reimbursed.

I've known Chad long before he worked at EAA or VP. He will move heaven and earth to help a customer, but with the limitations that he has to work within. At the moment that appears to be limited to the number of loaner units. It does appear that they've taken the time to ensure that the loaner you do get will work, by ensuring it has the correct flap controller.

We all know how frustrating things can be at the 11th hour for that first flight. I would recommend a little more patience, or send the unit back for a complete refund and use your favorite Nuckoll's schematic instead.

rleffler said:

………... use your favorite Nuckoll's schematic instead.

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Hard to go wrong with keeping it simple!

I realize that this doesn't fix the current situation keeping you from your first flight, but I would suggest you bite the bullet and correct the issue by eliminating the unsupported (based upon another thread in the forums) piece of equipment. I would keep the number of items in the plane to a minimum that will go obsolete and leave you stranded.

curtis said:

Hard to go wrong with keeping it simple!

I realize that this doesn't fix the current situation keeping you from your first flight, but I would suggest you bite the bullet and correct the issue by eliminating the unsupported (based upon another thread in the forums) piece of equipment. I would keep the number of items in the plane to a minimum that will go obsolete and leave you stranded.

Click to expand...

VP-X Sport and VP-X Pro are supported. In 10-20 years? Who knows, but by then, I'll probably have rebuilt my electrical system anyway, adopted newer technology, replaced the battery, the alternator - even the engine. The point that I'm making is that these are experimental aircraft, built with emerging technologies in some cases. That is the part of "experimental" that I like. Others might just enjoy having a basic airplane, and those should stick with the tried and true old school methods that just work.

curtis said:

... the unsupported (based upon another thread in the forums) piece of equipment.

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Not only are the VP-X Pro and VP-X Sport still supported, there is no reason to think that Ballard will discontinue them anytime soon, much less support for them. The other thread mentioned here refers to legacy Vertical Power products that Ballard didn't purchase the rights for and yet they have graciously, up to this point, supported them anyway. As frustrated as I am with that situation, I don't think it is fair to point the finger at Ballard or presume that the VP-X products will be orphaned in the same fashion as the earlier products. And I find their response to my own support issue to be excellent.

As for shipping costs, I am not aware of ANY company that will pay shipping costs unless it's a known defect or it can be shown to be a defect. Example: my X-Box 360 has been shipped to Microsoft twice. Once was a known disk drive defect and they emailed me a shipping carton with a pre-paid label and then sent the repaired unit back at no cost. The other time was apparently a worn out power supply and I paid for the shipping there and the repair; they were nice enough to ship it back (possibly the shipping was included in the cost of the repair). To expect Ballard to pay for shipping is a little unreasonable.

Final thought: to expect quick turnaround in the experimental market you should also expect certificated-like prices. It's not just certification that drives the cost of airplane parts up, it's also the support costs.

I think this thread has pretty much run it's course.