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Third class medical /Oshkosh

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Highway Bill

Does anyone know if the medical amendment attached to the Highway Bill is still in the Bill? The senate blocked a number of amendments in their Sunday session including the ones to defund Planned Parenthood, the IMF, and the one to void Obamacare. I cannot find if the Pilots Bill of Rights 2 is attached, anyone know?
 
Something I did not see mentioned, is that pilots like me who have held a private pilot license almost forever, who now fly with no medical, fly "beneath the radar" so to speak. No organization has any idea how many of us are out there or how safe or unsafe we are. Makes it hard to argue one way or the other since no valid numbers are available..
 
Something I did not see mentioned, is that pilots like me who have held a private pilot license almost forever, who now fly with no medical, fly "beneath the radar" so to speak. No organization has any idea how many of us are out there or how safe or unsafe we are. Makes it hard to argue one way or the other since no valid numbers are available..

If pilots like you were a hazard, it would be all over the NTSB's "probable cause" lists. But as someone already pointed out, stalls low and slow and VFR into IMC are still the big killers....
 
dan you are right. but bringing the medical standards up to modern standards is what needs to be done. a lot of disqualifying conditions need to be eliminated and updated but just tossing it out is not the answer. there are to many people on the roads that should not be medically driving but they are. do you thing it will do GA any good when someone with 20/400 vision crashes into a house.

and as i stated GA is a safety threat. most RA's are from VFR GA aircraft being where they should not have been. I have had two near misses, both with GA aircraft. one while on the ILS13R at DFW a RV-6 went under me about 100 feet. yes he was in the class b without a clearance. the other was a 310 in the clouds VFR. he popped out of a clouds just as I got an RA on him.

bob burns

rv-4 N82RB

I have a difficult time envisioning how a 3rd class medical exam could have prevented these "near misses." I believe someone else already made this point as well. What you seem to be describing is a need for the FAA to contact the pilot that broke bravo. As far as the other pilot, and I am no expert, it sounds like you were VFR as well. I presume that ATC would have vectored you around a potential conflict if you were under their control????

I don't mean this as a criticism but you seem to be one of the pilots that don't enjoy flying, and simply believe the sky should be empty of everyone else. THAT seems to me to be a very dangerous flying attitude in itself.

Some other observations. Don't we have 10+ years of proven history in the form of LSA data that supports the lack of need for the 3rd class medical? Also, I cannot remember reading a single incident report that exposed a general lack of ability or competence as might be the case with these hypothetical pilots from Florida that should not be allowed on the road anymore. Incidentally, I believe that is what we have a BFR (FR??) for. At a minimum the flight review process is certainly better equipped to deal with pilots that have outlived their ability to be safe in the sky.

At any rate, your arguments seem to be directed at the GA population collectively, regardless of the potential benefit of the 3rd class medical exam or lack thereof.

Just one other opinion.:)
 
Get up in the mornin, get on the bus! Be an airline pilot like like the rest of us! Places to go, important people to meet, better not get up or you might lose your seat. Bus riiiider! Really, you guys aren't all that. I'm a mechanic, so I know.
 
Pretty sad how the pilot community can be so easily divided just because some pilots think they are more equal than others.
 
Wow, feel the love. :(

I know not all pilots support reforming or removing the requirements for medical certificates for a limited subset of private pilots, which is what we're talking about here. As an old guy with very little flight time (neither by choice), I have a lot of respect for the experience and professionalism of professional pilots... but we all put our pants on one leg at a time and we all turn to dust in the end. And yes, I can imagine how an airline pilot who has had to dodge some idiot doing something really stupid (busting Bravo, crossing the ILS, flying IMC without IFR clearance and talking to ATC, etc) could develop a little bit of an attitude toward GA pilots in general. You don't really see the tens of thousands of us who don't cause you heartburn every day.

Still, those kinds of things have always happened, and always will. What we're talking about here is not barring people from flying who have no medical condition that would prevent them from safely doing so. In my case -- as well as those of several other pilots I have talked to -- their doctors agree that there is no reason they can't fly. There are no risk factors that would cause undue peril to the public. Still, there is some condition that keeps them from being able to pass an FAA third class medical exam. I know for sure that I personally am at far less risk now than I was when I had a valid medical certificate. Still, the FAA would never give me another one. Stupid? My GP, my cardiologist and a couple of AMEs I have talked to think so. I am not an expert, but it seems the criteria have not been kept up to date with medical advances over the past 30 years or so.

The really frustrating part of this is the "medical death penalty". If you know you can't get a medical cert and just let it expire, you can still fly LSA until you decide you're no longer fit to fly -- which nearly all of us are realistic about. But if you even try for an SI and get turned down, you're done flying even LSA - period, forever. Even if you would otherwise be fine to fly LSA. It's stupid. It needs to change, but the FAA has made it quite obvious that they will do anything they can to avoid making even minor changes.
 
Wow, feel the love. :(

....

The really frustrating part of this is the "medical death penalty". If you know you can't get a medical cert and just let it expire, you can still fly LSA until you decide you're no longer fit to fly -- which nearly all of us are realistic about. But if you even try for an SI and get turned down, you're done flying even LSA - period, forever. Even if you would otherwise be fine to fly LSA. It's stupid. It needs to change, but the FAA has made it quite obvious that they will do anything they can to avoid making even minor changes.

Perfectly said - an absurd and senseless paradox possible only in the world of government bereaucracy.
 
I just contacted my representative and both US senators regarding these bills. One senator (R) is a co-sponsor, the other (D) is not. Perhaps my letter will illuminate the issue for him a bit.

I was puzzled to see that our representative (R) had NOT signed on. She's usually quite attuned to important issues. Perhaps zombies got to her and sucked out her brain. Hope not. :D

Just explaining to them the idiocy of letting a medical lapse and still be legal to fly an LSE, yet failing a medical bars a pilot from flying again, should be enough. We will see ...
 
[SIZE="3"
Just explaining to them the idiocy of letting a medical lapse and still be legal to fly an LSE, yet failing a medical bars a pilot from flying again, should be enough. We will see ...[/SIZE]

Careful....that knife could cut both ways........might be better to just encourage them to vote for the bill and leave it at that. ;)
 
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Careful....that knife could cut both ways........might be better to just encourage them to vote for the bill and leave it at that. ;)

Good point, Sam. We ARE dealing with a government bureaucracy here. However, I'm not the first to point that out, I'm sure ...

Case in point: The AR pistol and BATFE. For any shooters out there, an AR-15 can be configured as a pistol as long as it doesn't have an adjustable stock or a vertical fore-grip, blessed by BATFE. However, SigSauer developed a "wrist brace" for the AR pistols which has a strange resemblance to an AR rifle stock (imagine that), the issue being that any AR with a barrel shorter than 16" would be classified as a Short-Barreled Rifle (SBR), requiring approval from the government, payment of a $200 tax, and a several-month wait. Thus, the AR pistol with wrist brace is born.

Shooters, not willing to take the BATFE's blessing of this arrangement, continued to hound the government for assurance that this combo was indeed legal. The BATFE, exasperated with the flood of inquiries, took another look at the issue and then determined that indeed, an AR pistol with a wrist brace is a pistol and NOT an SBR. However, as soon as a shooter puts the wrist brace to his shoulder, he has then magically transformed it into an SBR. That's the magic of bureaucracy, folks.

So, yes, pointing out the obvious conundrum might just muck up the works. However, I choose to assume that nobody in Washington really reads anything we actually write anyway. :D

 
Be careful how you word things.


Just explaining to them the idiocy of letting a medical lapse and still be legal to fly an LSE, yet failing a medical bars a pilot from flying again, should be enough. We will see ...

And how many people might just read the first half of that sentence?
 
Well the Tennessee crowd finally convinced Lamar to co-sponsor! I am working on Corker now!
 
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And even with the above...

Senators were lining up last week to offer controversial amendments to the bill that had nothing to do with highway funding. Among them were plans by conservatives for amendments to end funding for Planned Parenthood and to take away employer contributions for congressional aides' health coverage under Obamacare.

McConnell limited the unrelated amendments to just two ? the attempt to repeal the ACA and the revival of the now-expired Export-Import Bank, which serves as the official export credit agency of the U.S. government. Most Democrats, and some Republicans, support the bank. The Senate approved the amendment to revive the bank by a 67-26 vote.


Seems like it's not going to get tacked on to the Highway Bill.
 
ALPA Position On 3rd Class Medical

The ALPA has announced a position of non support for the 3rd class license medical. This morning I had a very informative conversation with a commercial pilot friend who could not believe the ALPA negative position. He contacted several commercial pilot friends and they were also amazed on the negative position. In general they all are in support of the proposal. What set them off was ALAP executives did not canvas their members prior to the announcement. I expect to hear more on their concerns.
My friend also added that major airlines like American, Southwest and Alaska were in support of the proposition. Maybe AOPA should contact the airlines and ask for their support.
 
The fall back position if disqualified medically is too quit flying or continue flying.
Some quit, some quietly keep on flying.

I am not an advocate of such disregard for medical regulations but sense strongly there are many who do just that. :)
 
From ALPA to its members:

July 27, 2015

As you may know, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) and the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) filed a petition for exemption with the FAA that would give pilots the option of conducting certain operations without having to hold an FAA medical certificate. The FAA has not yet acted on this request.

Currently, legislation is pending in the U.S. Congress that would implement the request made by AOPA/EAA through legislative mandate. Late last week, there was an attempt to attach this legislation, referred to as the "Pilot's Bill of Rights 2," to the surface transportation reauthorization legislation. Complex aviation safety issues have no place on a highway bill?period.

ALPA's sole responsibility is to advocate for its members in their capacity as professional airline pilots. ALPA's long-standing policy as adopted by its Board of Directors is to maintain the highest level of safety within the national airspace system. As such, ALPA has weighed in on the proposed amendment due to its obligation to the safety of our members in their capacity as airline pilots. The proposed amendment introduces risk that takes a step backwards from maintaining the highest levels of safety. If not for how this legislation impacts the safety of the airspace in which our members fly, ALPA would not weigh in on this matter.

On July 23, ALPA president, Capt. Tim Canoll, sent a letter to members of the U.S. Senate urging them to vote "no" on an amendment by Senator Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) to the highway bill.

In his letter, he outlined ALPA's opposition to this amendment:

This legislation has the potential to allow medically unfit pilots unfettered access to the national airspace at altitudes up to 18,000 feet with aircraft large enough to accommodate 6 occupants, at speeds up to 250 knots, in airspace which includes commercial airline traffic carrying passengers and cargo.
It would eliminate the requirement that these pilots see an aviation medical examiner (AME) at regular intervals for mental and physical evaluation in order to show medical fitness to operate an aircraft.
It may reduce some medical conditions that could disqualify a pilot from receiving a medical certificate and relies on the pilot to self-report when a disqualifying condition is identified. Even if a pilot develops and discloses a serious medical condition that creates risk in the national airspace, the amendment could prevent the FAA from ensuring that the pilot seek treatment.

This has been ALPA's position since 2012 when ALPA submitted comments to the FAA in opposition to the AOPA/EAA petition for exemption (Docket No. FAA-2012-0350) from the third-class medical requirement.
ALPA has engaged with stakeholders to address concerns about medical evaluation processes for pilots who hold a third-class medical certificate and believes that a compromise position can be developed to ensure that added risk to the airspace we operate in is mitigated and the highest levels of safety are maintained. In fact, there are other provisions in the Pilot's Bill of Rights that ALPA supports, and we intend to continue collaboration with our Hill and aviation partners.

Again, ALPA believes that a common-sense solution is within reach, but the amendment as written introduces a level of risk within the national airspace that we cannot support.

If you have any questions, please contact [email protected].
 
If you have any questions, please contact [email protected].

Thank you. I believe I will.

ALPA President and Board:

Having listened to your position, I would like to take this opportunity to comment.

The current system has the potential to allow medically unfit pilots into the national airspace, including into airline cockpits. We already self-certify before every flight, professional or private. A medical exam yesterday, last month, or 23 months ago has not proven to reliably predict medical fitness today.

We now have ten years of no-medical flying by the oldest members of the pilot community, operating as Sport pilots. The facts say there is no difference in pilot incapacitation rate between that group and the pilot community at large, including airline pilots.

Right now pilots hesitate to see their regular physician, because of potential effect on their flight medical status. That is again true for the entire pilot community. Are the skies safer because pilots visit a physician every 24 months for a cursory exam, or would medical fitness be improved if pilots visited their physician without reservation for any and all medical concerns?

Flight safety aside, ALPA leadership has made a very bad choice in opposing the elimination of the Third Class medical. You knifed your fellow pilots in the back, and what goes around, comes around. You?ll need support from your fellow alphabets eventually.

Regards,

Dan Horton
 
Here's what I just sent them:

Dear Sirs:

In a letter to US Senators regarding the changes to FAA private pilot medical qualifications under the PBOR2, ALPA makes what I believe are some very misleading statements.

"As you may know, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) and the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) filed a petition for exemption with the FAA that would give pilots the option of conducting certain operations without having to hold an FAA medical certificate. The FAA has not yet acted on this request."

There is some truth to this statement, although it is misleading not to mention the thousands of pilots who have been flying without medical certificates for over a decade now. Not only the pilots with Sport Pilot certificates; there are many, many more who hold higher class certificates, but have allowed their medicals to lapse and are flying under Sport Pilot rules. I personally know of numerous Private, Commercial and ATP certificate holders who are now legally and safely flying without medical certificates. I would not be surprised to find the number of of medical incapacitation incidents for such pilots is lower than it has been for airline pilots.

"It would eliminate the requirement that these pilots see an aviation medical examiner (AME) at regular intervals for mental and physical evaluation in order to show medical fitness to operate an aircraft.
It may reduce some medical conditions that could disqualify a pilot from receiving a medical certificate and relies on the pilot to self-report when a disqualifying condition is identified. Even if a pilot develops and discloses a serious medical condition that creates risk in the national airspace, the amendment coul
d prevent the FAA from ensuring that the pilot seek treatment. "

While the provisions of PBOR2 would indeed remove the requirement for many private pilots to see an AME periodically, it makes no change to the long standing requirement that every pilot medically self-evaluate before each flight. A third-class medical certificate is certainly no guarantee that the pilot is "fit for flight". That decision is one that each pilot must make every day, with the help of his or her physician. I believe, as do most of us, that education and personal responsibility are more effective that the current medical exam requirements. I also believe that being able to visit your doctor without worrying about your medical certificate would keep more pilots seeing their doctors when they should.

"This has been ALPA's position since 2012 when ALPA submitted comments to the FAA in opposition to the AOPA/EAA petition for exemption (Docket No. FAA-2012-0350) from the third-class medical requirement.
ALPA has engaged with stakeholders to address concerns about medical evaluation processes for pilots who hold a third-class medical certificate and believes that a compromise position can be developed to ensure that added risk to the airspace we operate in is mitigated and the highest levels of safety are maintained. In fact, there are other provisions in the Pilot's Bill of Rights that ALPA supports, and we intend to continue collaboration with our Hill and aviation partners.

Again, ALPA believes that a common-sense solution is within reach, but the amendment as written introduces a level of risk within the national airspace that we cannot support."


There have been attempts at compromise. EAA and AOPA have been asking for such a compromise for years. There have been proposals for what amounts to a very minor expansion of the Sport Pilot rules. The FAA has, however, over the past several years demonstrated their absolute unwillingness to address the issue in any way. While they claim to be "considering" changes, there has been absolutely no action despite a long string of broken promises, deflections and finger-pointing. It has become very obvious that nothing short of Congressional action will result in any changes.

It is telling that the letter mentions comments filed by the ALPA in 2012. Three years later, the FAA has yet to even publish an NPRM on what would have been a compromise position. Statements that ALPA supports any sort of compromise, or that the FAA is willing to take action of any sort, ring hollow. I have trouble believing that the ALPA's position reflects the opinion of the majority of its members.
 
Tone-deafness to its members is slowly but surely making ALPA a less relevant entity in commercial aviation.

The future for airline unions appears to be going to an independent, airline-specific organization-i.e.-APA at American, SWAPA at Southwest, USAPA at USAir and IPA at UPS.

My understanding is there is an active effort at Delta to peel themselves away from ALPA as well. If so, that would leave them with only one major airline pilot group to represent (UAL)....making them mostly a commuter/small carrier labor representative. I have many, many friends at UAL unhappy with ALPA as well and they are watching the events at DAL closely.

While the failure of PBOR2 is a setback, it may hasten the eventual diminution of ALPA's power as a political entity, as it appears its efforts to torpedo the legislation not only went forward without any broad membership support, but also without the support of any other pilot alphabet orgs. That loss of power can't come quickly enough for those of us outside of ALPA and tired of their heavy and high-handedness when dealing with industry issues.

As a minor conspiracy theorist, I also smell a collaboration between the reptiles at the top of the FAA and the honchoes at ALPA. I think the imminent, probable passage of the act galvanized the Huerta and his fellow mouth-breathers to give the folks at the union a squeeze to come out late in the game against the bill, for some quid pro quo to be quietly granted to the union after the noise dies down.

ALPA, as Dan H has said, has lost many friends in aviation outside of their little world of representing airline pilots, and many inside of it as well. Karma can be a bitch, sometimes, and I am sure that they will reap the whirlwind of this action on their part.

Rob Schroer
 
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I just lettered ALPA also. You other guys have tried to reason with them pointing out why reform is good, I've taken another tack. They know everything you've just told them, they don't care. You won't change their mind with logic, its a waste. I threatened them instead. Not with violence, with bad PR. Take off the gloves. Tell everyone just how crappy the airline industry is. Tell the public how the airlines mistreat them and compromise their safety and schedules to make a buck. Tell people that the "bus drivers" don' t even know how to fly. Flip a couple switches and they smack into the ground. Don't even know how to land. Half of them have mental problems their employers know about, but their UNION gets them back in the air again. Also told them that next time I encounter a busted airliner, it can just stay broken. For you decent airline pilots I'm sorry, but its YOUR union. Clean up you own mess.
 
Interesting document:

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SS1401.pdf

My favorite quote (so far) cuts to the bottom line:

Since 1990, the NTSB has cited pilot impairment due to drugs as a cause or contributing factor in 3.0%, and impairment or incapacitation from a medical condition in 1.8% of fatal US civil aviation accidents. The proportion of accidents for which the NTSB cited pilot impairment from drugs or medical conditions has not changed appreciably over the study period.

1.8%. Think about it.

BTW, "drug impairment" is always a hot button, but for the entire study period, only 2.8% of drug impairments were due to illicit drugs. That's 2.8% of 3%, or 0.084% of accidents. Everything else is over-the-counter or prescribed.
 
Less educative, more expletive.

My letter was more blunt...

"ALPA President and Board,

Submitting a letter condemning Senate Bill 571, without the support of, nor regard for your membership is the most disgusting act of political brown-nosing I have ever heard of. Your team?s current collective lack of leadership qualities and short-sighted, narrow-minded beliefs will certainly bring about the end of your organization. I emphatically urge you to reconsider your position and/or reorganize, restructure or resign immediately."
 
R.E.,

Your recent letter to your members;

You made the statement ?ALPA's long-standing policy as adopted by its Board of Directors is to maintain the highest level of safety within the national airspace system. As such, ALPA has weighed in on the proposed amendment due to its obligation to the safety of our members in their capacity as airline pilots.?

I would like to address the above statement if you please.

First off, I think you need to start looking at all pilots as valuable assets to our nation, and our aviation interests. Yes, I agree you have a duty to represent your members, but please realize we are all pilots here, and as such we are a very small minority of the general population----------and for one group of pilots to attack and try to damage the ability of their brother pilots to fly is simply unconscionable.

Second, your airlines do not own the airspace, it is something that belongs to all pilots.

One of the arguments you postulated was that without a 3rd class medical, there would be more pilots flying with medical issues that will make them unqualified to fly. I submit to you that the exact opposite is more likely to happen--------and here is why. As things stand now, many pilots will not go to their doctors for seemingly minor issues due to potential effect of having a negative impact on their medical when the report the visit, and so they just do not seek medical help when it is actually needed. If the 3rd class medical is removed, the pilots who will be relieved of this burden will become a more healthy group overall.

Ask yourself--------------as far as hazards to airline pilots go, which is greater; the general aviation pilot who is staying away from medical care, or the general aviation pilot who freely goes to his/her medical professional and takes care of their health issues before they become incapaciting???

Please retract your letter to congress opposing the Pilots Bill of Rights--------------your members will benefit from many of the provisions therein, in addition to the above shown greater safety from the elimination of the 3rd class medical.

Lastly, many if not most of your members will continue flying after their airline careers are over, and they will benefit directly from this action.

Thank you,

Mike Starkey
 
ALPA needs to think of their current members that will retire from the airlines and will want to continue to fly--like many I know on our field. Oh, but wait...then they won't be dues paying members of the union and ALPA won't give a darn.
 
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To whom it may concern:

As a private pilot and a technical professional in general aviation, I am absolutely disgusted by ALPA?s opposition to the proposed exemption to the third-class medical requirement for light aircraft pilots. Not only have you stabbed your fellow aviators in the back, but your fear-mongering, sky-is-falling remarks about ?medically unfit pilots? having ?unfettered access? to airspace is groundless, baseless, and utterly lacking in evidence. Even the FAA?s own data shows that medically-related accidents are a complete non-factor. If you were truly so worried about safety, maybe you would direct your attention towards addressing the real causes of accidents like loss of control, VFR into IMC, and CFIT, or even towards pushing affordable ADS-B equipage, rather than trying to solve imaginary problems by making sure private pilots turn their heads and cough.

I think I speak for the majority of the pilot community when I say that your ill-timed backstabbing reeks of political back-scratching and brown-nosing. Congratulations on sticking it to those pesky little airplanes that just get in your way, to the pilots (quite a number of whom are ALPA members) who fly them, and to all the rest of us for whom general aviation puts food on the table. I guess ?solidarity? and ?brotherhood? don?t matter much after all, when it stands to make you an extra buck or earn FAA brownie points.

Thanks for nothing,

<rmartingt>
 
Got a response from ALPA:

"Hi Brian,

Thanks for the note. We understand that this is an emotional issue.

A couple points that were contained in the AOPA and EAA messages to their members are incorrect. Just so you are aware, we have been attempting to work this issue with AOPA for some time now and in fact thought we had identified a middle ground solution. We spoke with GAMA reps about that middle ground solution in order to start to build consensus. It was the attempt to attach the amendment to the surface transportation bill without prior coordination that triggered ALPA’s response on Friday.

As you know, ALPA’s responsibility is to advocate for our members in their capacity as professional airline pilots. As highlighted we have been trying to work with AOPA to satisfy their concerns but they went ahead, without our knowledge, in an attempt to attach this amendment to the Highway Bill.

ALPA’s long standing policy is to maintain the highest level of safety within the National Air Space system. Self-certification of medical qualification for pilots flying in the same airspace as airlines is a step backwards from maintaining the highest levels of safety. You are correct in that all ALPA members who are also GA pilots hold a Class 1 or 2 medical (as part of their jobs) and thus not affected by this issues except for the fact it could have an adverse effect on the safety of the airspace in which we operate.

Contrary to many assertions, there have been airborne medical issues for GA pilots, just like commercial pilots, and moving to medical self-certification will just make it worse. There are a couple stats released by NTSB and the Aerospace Medical Association that folks should review when considering whether medical self-certification is safe. The Aerospace Medical Association has stated that immediately after the Sport pilot category was introduced the general aviation accident rate increased by 20% and NTSB has documented the sharp increase in accident involving Sport pilots where prohibited substances were found in the system of the pilot and contributed to the accident.

We are hoping to continue to work with AOPA and other stakeholders to find a solution to the their special issuance concerns and any other problem they would like to address. There are other aspects of the pilots bill of rights that we support which is why we have attempted to work the issue with AOPA.

Hope that this helps.

Keith Hagy
Director – Engineering and Air Safety Department"


Where are these stats they refer to????
 
Kinda silly reasoning I think. IF their information is correct, what does that have to do with the issue? It is not like there is some connection of having a medical paid for would stop the drug use.
I still maintain that there are a lot of pilots like me, PP licensed long ago who are flying on our drivers license. NOBODY knows how many of us there are and if we are safe or not, certainly there are no statistics on us.
 
Got a response from ALPA:

"Hi Brian,

Thanks for the note. We understand that this is an emotional issue.

A couple points that were contained in the AOPA and EAA messages to their members are incorrect. Just so you are aware, we have been attempting to work this issue with AOPA for some time now and in fact thought we had identified a middle ground solution. We spoke with GAMA reps about that middle ground solution in order to start to build consensus. It was the attempt to attach the amendment to the surface transportation bill without prior coordination that triggered ALPA?s response on Friday.

As you know, ALPA?s responsibility is to advocate for our members in their capacity as professional airline pilots. As highlighted we have been trying to work with AOPA to satisfy their concerns but they went ahead, without our knowledge, in an attempt to attach this amendment to the Highway Bill.

ALPA?s long standing policy is to maintain the highest level of safety within the National Air Space system. Self-certification of medical qualification for pilots flying in the same airspace as airlines is a step backwards from maintaining the highest levels of safety. You are correct in that all ALPA members who are also GA pilots hold a Class 1 or 2 medical (as part of their jobs) and thus not affected by this issues except for the fact it could have an adverse effect on the safety of the airspace in which we operate.

Contrary to many assertions, there have been airborne medical issues for GA pilots, just like commercial pilots, and moving to medical self-certification will just make it worse. There are a couple stats released by NTSB and the Aerospace Medical Association that folks should review when considering whether medical self-certification is safe. The Aerospace Medical Association has stated that immediately after the Sport pilot category was introduced the general aviation accident rate increased by 20% and NTSB has documented the sharp increase in accident involving Sport pilots where prohibited substances were found in the system of the pilot and contributed to the accident.

We are hoping to continue to work with AOPA and other stakeholders to find a solution to the their special issuance concerns and any other problem they would like to address. There are other aspects of the pilots bill of rights that we support which is why we have attempted to work the issue with AOPA.

Hope that this helps.

Keith Hagy
Director ? Engineering and Air Safety Department"


Where are these stats they refer to????

Here are some, but I certainly don't see a 20% spike...:rolleyes:

pilot-table.png


http://www.aopa.org/About-AOPA/Gene...l-Aviation-Safety-Record-Current-and-Historic
 
I got the exact, word for word, letter-------and it had a couple attachments to PDFs of letters from NTSB, and some aeromedical group, both letters damning the elimination of the 3rd class medical.

I responded back and asked Mr Hagy to elaborate on the "middle ground" he was talking about, and to address my statements about pilots not going to see a MD for routine issues, and the fact that the reporting requirement of the medical causes our pilot population to be less healthy than if the 3rd was eliminated.

He responded back with his phone number, and asked me to call------which I did-------and in fact just got off the phone with him.

The "middle ground" he is referring to is targeted at Special Issuance certifications, and getting the FAA out of the mix for the most part. This "middle ground" would allow your own personal physician to certify that you have been treated for the condition that initiated the need for a SI, and that the FAA would be required to accept that as proof----------instead of all the tests that the FAA currently requires to prove correction of a SI type of condition.

This does sound like a giant step in the right direction, but it will not address the elimination of the 3rd class medical at all.
 
The "middle ground" he is referring to is targeted at Special Issuance certifications, and getting the FAA out of the mix for the most part. This "middle ground" would allow your own personal physician to certify that you have been treated for the condition that initiated the need for a SI, and that the FAA would be required to accept that as proof----------instead of all the tests that the FAA currently requires to prove correction of a SI type of condition.
I see a huge, gaping hole in that process. In fact, it almost seems designed to give the appearance of compromise, while essentially changing nothing. Any time you go for an SI you stand a significant change of being denied. And of course once that happens, you're screwed.

If such a "compromise" would actually allow your personal physician to certify you instead of getting an SI, I'd support it. Otherwise... no. Of course the AMEs wouldn't like that.
 
I see a huge, gaping hole in that process. In fact, it almost seems designed to give the appearance of compromise, while essentially changing nothing. Any time you go for an SI you stand a significant change of being denied. And of course once that happens, you're screwed.

If such a "compromise" would actually allow your personal physician to certify you instead of getting an SI, I'd support it. Otherwise... no. Of course the AMEs wouldn't like that.

As I understand what he said, there is still the SI process to be dealt with, but the proof of treatment/correction/compliance is what your personal MD could do.

Example----------my words, not his--------you have bypass surgery, instead of having to jump through all the FAA hoops like 6 month wait, stress test, harness monitoring etc, you get your MD to certify you are fixed and that is the end of it.
 
The Aerospace Medical Association has stated that immediately after the Sport pilot category was introduced the general aviation accident rate increased by 20%
Yep, some sustained 20% increase...
ga_03_accidentrates.jpg

Courtesy NTSB


and NTSB has documented the sharp increase in accident involving Sport pilots where prohibited substances were found in the system of the pilot and contributed to the accident.

Actually "contributed to" or just "traces were found in the bloodstream"? The mere presence of traces of a substance that might cause impairment in some people does not equal "contributed to the accident".

And in either case, a "20% spike" in a number that is practically zero is still practically zero.
ga_08_p_definevent.jpg


I don't see "medical incapacitation" category anywhere. But I do see really big bars next to things like "loss of control in flight", "controlled flight into terrain" and "system malfunction". I see "unintended flight into IMC" has a higher percentage of fatal accidents than any other category. And these types of accidents completely dwarf the "unknown" and "other" categories--even if we're generous and assume for sake of discussion that all of those are medically-caused, they're still down in the noise.

Worrying about pilots with hernias or traces of over-the-counter antihistamines in their system is like worrying about a leaky faucet when flood waters are pouring into your basement and there's a gaping hole in the roof letting the rain in.
 
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ALPA is a UNION, not a volunteer group like AOPA EAA, They are affiliated with the AFL CIO as far as I can tell by research. This has to be about money, not safety,,,let's see where the money goes if this new law fails, that will be who is pulling the strings at ALPA. I would bet it is high up in the government. There is something very fishy about this new protest from them. There was not a peep from them till it looked like it would pass.
 
Am I missing something here? In all of this back and forth, most recently and especially with ALPA and their imaginary statistics...what has become of the core issue? Maybe it's just me, but the way I see it is that the third class medical accomplishes nothing of value. Zip. It in no way enhances safety. That factor alone is more than enough justification to do away with it as an unnecessary burden.

ALPA is simply making a power play, and their keenly crafted justification and planting of their flag on the perceived high ground is no more than the same old political smoke and mirrors.
 
I've been following this issue closely and really want to see the 3rd Class Medical go away.

Before I send EAA or the AOPA any more money in support of this cause I thought I would ask how many of you are supporting this issue financially?

At 53 years old I got into flying late in life and I feel it could be snatched away from me in an instant if I have the need to go to the doctor.

I did my second ever 3rd class medical check just last month and I must say it seems pretty meaningless. How does that check make me or anyone else safer a month, a year or two years from now.

Do you think there's any value in me sending additional financial support to the EAA and AOPA in support of this cause?

Is it winnable?
 
Medical reform

I make phone calls (Hello Senator Cruz) and send letters but I do not donate financially to any specific cause. I am a member of AOPA and EAA, so I think I'm supporting the advocacy in that way.

So, give if you want to, but write the letters and make those phone calls. Hopefully their staffers notice them enough to get some traction.
 
Yep, some sustained 20% increase...
ga_03_accidentrates.jpg

The 20% increase with the introduction the "drivers license medical" is being quoted out of context. We were there...the problem was older pilots transitioning into smaller, lighter aircraft without any sort of transition training. It had nothing to do with medical incapacitation, which per this NTSB report...

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-st...nts/SS1401.pdf

...is 1.8% of fatal accidents since 1990.

This from the conclusions:

Although this study found an association between fatally injured pilots flying without a medical certificate and increased evidence of such pilots using drugs with impairing effects, there has not been a corresponding increase in the proportion of accidents in which the National Transportation Safety Board determined that impairment contributed to the accident.

Put another way, despite finding more allergy and heart medications in dead pilots, it wasn't causing more accidents.

Despite that conclusion, they troted out a poster boy in a CYA letter to a Congressman:

For example, in Groesbeck, Texas, on November 2, 2012, a 69-year-old man suffered fatal injuries when he lost control of his light-sport aircraft (NTSB# CEN13LA046). His last third-class medical certificate had been issued in 2003, and at that time he reported no medical problems and no medications. The investigation identified that at the time of his accident, he was being treated for hypertension, high cholesterol, prostatism, a chronic pain syndrome, depression, anxiety, panic disorder, attention deficit with hyperactivity disorder, insomnia, and restless leg syndrome. His toxicology testing identified seven different medications in his blood, including two considered sedating (diphenhydramine and zolpidem) and one that is known to cause patients to suddenly fall asleep without warning (pramipexole). In addition, there was evidence of use of three additional controlled substances in his urine (clonazepam, hydrocodone, and methylphenidate). The pilot's physical and psychological impairment was determined to have contributed to the loss of control. Had the pilot discussed his multiple physical and psychological medical conditions, as well as the drugs used to treat them, with an Aviation Medical Examiner during an aviation medical exam, there would have been an opportunity to address the safety issues that his conditions and medications presented, and the crash might have been avoided.
 
The 20% increase with the introduction the "drivers license medical" is being quoted out of context. We were there...the problem was older pilots transitioning into smaller, lighter aircraft without any sort of transition training. It had nothing to do with medical incapacitation, which per this NTSB report...

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-st...nts/SS1401.pdf

...is 1.8% of fatal accidents since 1990.

Link's broken... but thanks for finding that 1.8% number. It's good to have.

This from the conclusions:

Although this study found an association between fatally injured pilots flying without a medical certificate and increased evidence of such pilots using drugs with impairing effects, there has not been a corresponding increase in the proportion of accidents in which the National Transportation Safety Board determined that impairment contributed to the accident.

Put another way, despite finding more allergy and heart medications in dead pilots, it wasn't causing more accidents.
Appears ALPA leadership has a reading comprehension problem. Maybe they shouldn't be flying airplanes any more...


Despite that conclusion, they troted out a poster boy in a CYA letter to a Congressman:

... Had the pilot discussed his multiple physical and psychological medical conditions, as well as the drugs used to treat them, with an Aviation Medical Examiner during an aviation medical exam, there would have been an opportunity to address the safety issues that his conditions and medications presented, and the crash might have been avoided.
If the knee-jerk FAA-mandated response to even discussing potential issues with an AME wasn't "you're permanently grounded unless and until we decide otherwise", perhaps pilots might be more forthright with doctors. But as long as any aviation medical exam gives the doctor open license to go on a fishing expedition for things as silly as hernias (yes, I got the "turn your head and cough" routine last time*), and as long as the slightest slip of a tongue can end your flying passion/career, the games that every pilot will play at the doctor's office are "don't talk to The Man", "stop snitchin", and "name, rank, serial number". And I'd bet a round of beers that someone in the ALPA leadership circles was, shall we say, less than forthcoming about something in his last medical exam.




* Then again, my AME also said "This exam is pointless and stupid, and we both know it. I expect it'll go away by the next time I would see you. You can understand when I speak to you, you can read the things I showed you, and you walked around the office without falling over or passing out. You're fine." Makes me wonder, so why the hernia check?:confused:
 
Here is the link.

Simple to go to NTSB and search for pdf files with the name SS1401.


http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/SS1401.pdf

Edit/discussion: I have been an observer but not directly connected with the thinking/logic of this proposal for a while. Admittedly, with superficial information (one-liners) I have been on the fence. The idea of the certificate elimination is appealing. The thinking is that we, pilots, can at any time go fly with conditions far less than ideal for safety. Through experience and self awareness , our physical and mental condition, is a judgement call for self evaluation. The medical, 3rd class, certificate seems to be factually and statistically decoupled from accidents (The 1.8% cited in the NTSB white paper notwithstanding). On the safety side, there are many medical conditions/medications and physical factors that could affect we pilots. It would seem a flight surgeon, would be the ideal consultant for such discussions. Many of us might already get a physical from a Dr periodically. I am not so sure that the excellent experience and skills of the physician for walking around health are equally applicable to flight factors for piloting an aircraft. For that reason it would be quite good (it would seem) to have a flight physical periodically in which a pilot could freely discuss conditions and medications and their effects/risks to safe flying. This would be for the purpose of consultation and self awareness, not a regulatory absolute. While the 3rd class does not full fill the full physical needs, it does offer the opportunity for some coaching from the physician. We all probably get that in the process. I recognize the issue as being the necessity for this (3rd class) single, "test" to be the sole event that allows one to fly or not fly as being inadequate and not linked to the statistical facts of accidents.

So if there is no certificate, is there a need for a "flight" physical to generate the discussion and self awareness in order to retain that "judgement" for fitness to pilot the plane? Does anyone see this as a potential problem with the 3rd class certificate elimination?
 
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Ted Cruz

This note is for us Texas guys, Senator Cruz is not yet on board. Here is his number, please call him today and leave a message stating your view as the timing is critical

202-224-5922
 
I got the same EAA note yesterday that NJ pilots need to call Menendez and Booker (??). I am going to do this today. The EAA claims they need 3 more cosponsors to push this to the floor this week.
 
I have been an observer but not directly connected with the thinking/logic of this proposal for a while. Admittedly, with superficial information (one-liners) I have been on the fence. The idea of the certificate elimination is appealing. The thinking is that we, pilots, can at any time go fly with conditions far less than ideal for safety. Through experience and self awareness , our physical and mental condition, is a judgement call for self evaluation. The medical, 3rd class, certificate seems to be factually and statistically decoupled from accidents (The 1.8% cited in the NTSB white paper notwithstanding). On the safety side, there are many medical conditions/medications and physical factors that could affect we pilots. It would seem a flight surgeon, would be the ideal consultant for such discussions. Many of us might already get a physical from a Dr periodically. I am not so sure that the excellent experience and skills of the physician for walking around health are equally applicable to flight factors for piloting an aircraft. For that reason it would be quite good (it would seem) to have a flight physical periodically in which a pilot could freely discuss conditions and medications and their effects/risks to safe flying. This would be for the purpose of consultation and self awareness, not a regulatory absolute. While the 3rd class does not full fill the full physical needs, it does offer the opportunity for some coaching from the physician. We all probably get that in the process. I recognize the issue as being the necessity for this (3rd class) single, "test" to be the sole event that allows one to fly or not fly as being inadequate and not linked to the statistical facts of accidents.

So if there is no certificate, is there a need for a "flight" physical to generate the discussion and self awareness in order to retain that "judgement" for fitness to pilot the plane? Does anyone see this as a potential problem with the 3rd class certificate elimination?

The problem is the way flight physicals have been implemented.

For one, it is my strong suspicion that the requirement for a medical certificate was instituted during the tenure of an ex-military aviator as FAA/CAA administrator, who said to himself "in the military we had to pass a physical to fly, so these danged civilians should have to, too". And I bet the standards were either developed by a slight relaxation of the standards for fighter pilots, or by a civilian doctor with no flight experience who just wrote down his idea of "here's what a healthy person looks like". They certainly were not developed by analyzing medically-caused accidents and figuring out what tests would detect those problems before they occurred. It may be illuminating to note that, up until sometime in the 90s, women were required to get a pelvic exam as part of even a third-class medical. That has even less to do with being able to fly an airplane than a hernia check on males.

Anyways, the point is to note that (a) most of the standards for medical certificates often have nothing at all to do with flying an airplane, and (b) the FAA guidance on what the AME should look for is so vague as to give open license to go on "fishing expeditions" and look for anything they want.

Point 2 is that when the default position than any anomaly, no matter how slight, is a grounding condition until you prove otherwise to some OKC desk-driver's satisfaction, and the FAA's position that once you start the paperwork, you're committed, it becomes readily apparent that the system is structured as a trap. The slightest misstep, the slightest interpretation, and the FAA says "gotcha!" It's an extremely adversarial environment, and adversarial environments are bad for safety. They discourage people from reporting problems, because people know that in doing so they have turned a potential problem into a definite one, at least for themselves, and so there's almost no incentive to report. Even the FAA knows this (or at least some parts of it do, anyway)--look at the way ASRS is set up. It explicitly removes the immediate threat of punishment by anonymizing the data and prohibits the FAA from scanning the reports to find violations, and even better, provides a "get out of jail free" card of sorts for genuine mistakes by contrite individuals.

That's also why NTSB findings are prohibited from being used in legal proceedings, and why the military conducts closed-door confidential accident review boards (as explained elsewhere on VAF). They want participants to be open and not hold anything back when safety is an issue. But medical exams are different; as they say so often on Law and Order, "anything you say can and will be used against you". And once the denial or hold is in your record, it never goes away. I know of one guy denied a first-class medical due to what was eventually determined to be a false positive; not only was he grounded from all flying (even his own light airplane) until it was resolved, but now that denial follows him around at every single medical exam he takes in the future, and permanently casts a shadow of doubt at every visit.

Given all of that, is it any wonder that pilots are hesitant and reluctant to discuss things with an AME, especially if it's a condition that's successfully being treated by their own personal doctor who's much more familiar with them and said condition than the AME will ever be?

For any kind of required medical exam to be acceptable to GA pilots, the whole attitude will have to change. Instead of mandating immediate reporting and issuance of a hard denial after the slightest hint of anything the AME doesn't like, the AME needs to be able to just not say anything at all until the issues have been resolved. If instead of issuing a denial and then having to fight the bureaucracy, we could just let the medical expire while the issue is worked with the pilot's regular doctor, and then reissue the medical when it?s resolved, that might help pilots be more comfortable reporting potential issues. If the guidance and standards were limited to only things that have a genuine impact on flying, and not a catch-all net, people might be more willing to accept them as valid. And if the FAA?s position on medication was not ?you?re denied if you ever take this? but rather ?evaluate the effects of this drug before you fly while taking it?, like it already says about driving and operating heavy equipment, people might talk those things over with the doctor too. And if (at least for third class) the exam could be conducted by a regular doctor, and not an AME who has the FAA's gun to his head, maybe things might improve.

But as long as the FAA insists on playing ?gotcha?, pilots will continue to opt for the possible problem over the certain one.


Incidentally, just got the same form-letter reply. Rebuttal to be posted when complete.
 
...

Do you think there's any value in me sending additional financial support to the EAA and AOPA in support of this cause?

Is it winnable?
It will be winnable with legislation only. And I do believe AOPA is effective with their advocacy, and a worthy organization to offer support. EAA does good fly ins. They stink at advocacy.
 
Boiler Plate response from ALPA

Received this yesterday from ALPA. If you're an ALPA member might want to "educate" your leadership.



Hi Mike,

Thanks for the note. We understand that this is an emotional issue.

A couple points that were contained in the AOPA and EAA messages to their members are incorrect. Just so you are aware, we have been attempting to work this issue with AOPA for some time now and in fact thought we had identified a middle ground solution. We spoke with GAMA reps about that middle ground solution in order to start to build consensus. It was the attempt to attach the amendment to the surface transportation bill without prior coordination that triggered ALPA?s response on Friday.

As you know, ALPA?s responsibility is to advocate for our members in their capacity as professional airline pilots. As highlighted we have been trying to work with AOPA to satisfy their concerns but they went ahead, without our knowledge, in an attempt to attach this amendment to the Highway Bill.

ALPA?s long standing policy is to maintain the highest level of safety within the National Air Space system. Self-certification of medical qualification for pilots flying in the same airspace as airlines is a step backwards from maintaining the highest levels of safety. You are correct in that all ALPA members who are also GA pilots hold a Class 1 or 2 medical (as part of their jobs) and thus not affected by this issues except for the fact it could have an adverse effect on the safety of the airspace in which we operate.

Contrary to many assertions, there have been airborne medical issues for GA pilots, just like commercial pilots, and moving to medical self-certification will just make it worse. There are a couple stats released by NTSB and the Aerospace Medical Association that folks should review when considering whether medical self-certification is safe. The Aerospace Medical Association has stated that immediately after the Sport pilot category was introduced the general aviation accident rate increased by 20% and NTSB has documented the sharp increase in accident involving Sport pilots where prohibited substances were found in the system of the pilot and contributed to the accident.

We are hoping to continue to work with AOPA and other stakeholders to find a solution to the their special issuance concerns and any other problem they would like to address. There are other aspects of the pilots bill of rights that we support which is why we have attempted to work the issue with AOPA.

Hope that this helps.

Keith Hagy
Director ? Engineering and Air Safety Department
 
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