Empennage Re-do's

Hey all-
Just simply out of curiosity, I'm wondering how many people at the end of their build go back and build a second empenage. I hear it's fairly common place, but just how common of an event is it? I spent about 160 hours on the first one. I bet building the second would take <100 hrs & have better workmanship.

I am rebuilding right elevator and horizontal stabilizer. Elevator had a skin ding i didn't like, and the HS was essentially practice for me. Didn't like how a lot of the rivets turned out...

Daniel I know you're a perfectionist - just fly the thing if there are no safety concerns! For those of you building a show plane, disregard my remark

Why does Van's have you start on the HS? Those first rivets you pound, down in the nose are some of the most difficult rivets in the entire kit.

When asked, I recommend new builders start with the VS because it has much better access to all the rivets, thus it is easier to build.

BTW, I trashed my first two HS skins and replaced them both, some ribs, etc. It was ugly and not airworthy! The good thing was it gave me some aluminum to use for some minor mods I made later in the build.

Thanks Brian.
I'm not going to redo my whole tail... Well, maybe just 2 parts (VS & Left elevator w/ trim tab). No real safety concern, they are just not as well done as I would like ... I'm about done with the metal work on the "wing" section & will have some down time. I was honestly just curious how many people re-do it. I just heard another local guy was going to do a re-do.

If/when I were to build another RV, I would buy a 2X rivet gun.

Having used a friend's 2X, I found they are perfect for setting skin to rib rivets. You will still need a 3X gun for those rivets that have to be set in more structure, such as the longerons, or where three or four parts must be riveted together.

The 2X is light enough that it doesn't dent the skin, if the bucking bar or gun slips off but still heavy enough to set the rivet quickly.

I am at the beginning of my RV-9 tail now, and am ready to prime the HS parts, however have now shifted to the VS per Bill's suggestion.

Having had some bad experiences so far on the practice kit with the 3x gun I think I will get a 2x as well unless I hear feedback from others saying it is too little

I had smileys in my vertical stabilizer spar, so I trashed that particular assembly and started fresh with new parts from Vans. Boy am I glad I did. It took very little time to get back to where I had been in the plans and the work was perfect.

I wouldn't consider redoing an entire emp kit, but then again, my work came out good after my "learning" on the VS the first time. Plus I took several organized classes before starting my project, so I wasn't totally green. However, I'm not sure I'm happy with one of my elevator trim tabs, so that may get redone later...

All in all, IMHO the things that affect quality of workmanship the most are experience (read: prior practice) and tools/shop (use the right tools for the job whenever possible). Things like pneumatic squeezers and specialized handtools are not just a luxury; they really help to turn out good product.

JDBoston said:

I am at the beginning of my RV-9 tail now, and am ready to prime the HS parts, however have now shifted to the VS per Bill's suggestion.

Having had some bad experiences so far on the practice kit with the 3x gun I think I will get a 2x as well unless I hear feedback from others saying it is too little

Click to expand...

Don't give up, if you ding some parts. Believe me, I trashed a LOT parts during my build and just ordered replacements. Here is a picture of just some of my trashed parts.

Make sure you experiment with different air pressures. Less pressure than you might think typically works best. Here is a list of recommended pressures for 3X guns. These are only a starting point. YMMV!

The tail kit is by far the cheapest subkit, and it serves as an "advanced practice" kit, if you will. If you learn decent or good riveting skills before starting the tail then your tail is likely to be fine - but if you completely screw the pooch, you have the option to chunk it and start over for less than 2 grand - there are not many opportunities in aviation for that kind of do-over.

I had to re-do the HS spar and skins on mine, not because I messed up the metalwork, but because I mis-read the plan drawings and FUBAR'd the spar. It was a relatively inexpensive lesson to learn at the beginning of the project.

N941WR said:

If/when I were to build another RV, I would buy a 2X rivet gun.

Having used a friend's 2X, I found they are perfect for setting skin to rib rivets. You will still need a 3X gun for those rivets that have to be set in more structure, such as the longerons, or where three or four parts must be riveted together.

The 2X is light enough that it doesn't dent the skin, if the bucking bar or gun slips off but still heavy enough to set the rivet quickly.

Click to expand...

For those considering guns, unlike Bill, I bought a 2x and like him, found it to be great on the skin to rib lines and other thin material places. After about 3 or 4 times drilling out 4's or longer 3's I went and got a 3x. Both is definitely better but if you can only have one get the 3x and learn to turn it down.

My .02 worth.

I took my VS down from the attic a few weeks ago. I looked it over pretty good, knowing that I had built this part first.

After looking it over, I found rivets I dont like. I am definitely going to be drilling some of them out. I think my HS's are going to be in pretty good shape. I know my rudder has a pretty good ding in it.

I still have plenty of other things to obsess about before then.

I rebuilt the horizontal stabilizer. Too many dings and messed up rivets near the attach angles. If I recall that was about a $500 setback.