-6 QB advice.

I may be looking at a -6 QB project for sale in WA.
Can anyone tell me about the QB for -6? Seems Vans didn't offer it for long before discontinuing -6.
For an early stage project (emp and wings completed) do you suggest a pre-buy from someone more knowledgeable than myself (which is pretty much anyone here).
Also any particular considerations regarding transporting this project from WA (about 1hr east of Seattle) down to SF area, CA? I imagine I'd be doing it in a U-Haul.
I'd appreciate any/all advice.

Thanks a bunch!
-c

EAA Tech Conselor

Avail yourself of the EAA tech counselors - typically if someone is nearby up there they'll go look at the project and give you a candid opinion of the workmanship, and corrosion issues, etc. Since the tail is mostly NOT QB, that's the place to really look.

Make sure there are builders logs of the work or you'll never get it approved as amateur built.

-Bryan
RV-6A QB

RV-6 QB

A friend of mine purchased a -6 with QB wings. It went well, but only because he had covered all of his bases. Here are a few things to keep in mind:

Make sure that there is provenance from the kit from Van's so that you will be able to get a bill of sale to enable you to register the airplane.

As already mentioned, builder logs of the work previously done will probably be needed to help you prove to the FAA / DAR that the work was done by amateurs.

Have someone experienced check workmanship on what has been done.

One big thing to be aware is that for all QB kits, the empennage is not quickbuild. This allows you to learn the necessary sheet metal techniques on relatively small and inexpensive parts, so that you make your mistakes early on easily-replaceable parts. My friend's partner in the above build was ready to start his sheet metal career on the F-604 bulkhead assembly, which you might say is a somewhat complex, somewhat critical portion of the build. Had not even built the practice toolbox.

The documentation isn't the best on portions of the fuselage build, having experienced builders to guide you is a huge asset, or necessity.

Be prepared for long lead times for firewall forward.

That sounds like a lot to think about, and it is. The reward is that it offers a path to RV ownership at a much lower cost. My friend's all-in flying cost was less than $25,000. It's been a few years, but still...

Thanks so much for the responses.
Right off the bat there may be a problem. The person I'm buying from is the 3rd (at least) owner of this project, and he didn't work on it and doens't have the build logs for the fuel tanks, closed wings, and control surfaces. So far as I'm aware that's all that has been completed.
He gave me contact for the person he purchased from. So I'll follow up there as well.
How big an issue might this be? A deal breaker?

thanks again,
Charlie

The fuel tanks are built by the Van's contractors as part of the QB wings. That said, be sure to leak test before use. Ask me how I know :-|

No build logs is a huge red flag. I had that problem and since zero work had been done on the wings (not closed up) and the fuselage (other than one badly installed skin which needed to be redone), I was able to get to my 51% by building a new VStab and Rudder. I used the provided (and undocumented) HStab and Elevator.

If the wings are already fully skinned (should be one skin missing on a QB), you are likely not going to have enough amateur built points to meet the 51%.

Here's the bible on the "51%"
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kits/media/am_blt_chklist_job_aid.pdf

Get the serial number for the build and verify that the seller is shown as the current owner by Vans. If not, you’ll need a chain of bills of sale from the listed owner to you in order to get the final kit bill of sale from Vans that you will need to register the aircraft with the FAA.

Quick build

I heard that for a short time, Van’s offered a 6 quick build tail and I think all of them were made in the Czech Republic.

jask said:

I heard that for a short time, Van’s offered a 6 quick build tail and I think all of them were made in the Czech Republic.

Click to expand...

Is that cause for concern?

blaplante said:

If the wings are already fully skinned (should be one skin missing on a QB), you are likely not going to have enough amateur built points to meet the 51%.

Click to expand...

what if I drill out some or all of the rivets on the 1 skin and re-do them?

gyoung said:

Get the serial number for the build and verify that the seller is shown as the current owner by Vans. If not, you’ll need a chain of bills of sale from the listed owner to you in order to get the final kit bill of sale from Vans that you will need to register the aircraft with the FAA.

Click to expand...

good point. Just spoke to Vans and it checks out.

chubsterini said:

what if I drill out some or all of the rivets on the 1 skin and re-do them?

Click to expand...

By the regulations, this is considered a repair and not a "build". It would NOT count toward the 51%.

Mel said:

By the regulations, this is considered a repair and not a "build". It would NOT count toward the 51%.

Click to expand...

got it. thanks.

Through the power of Google I was able to chase down the 2nd owner (the current owner is the 4th). Let's see if she has good news for me.

Assuming the ailerons and flaps are not completed, you might be able to do enough yourself to meet the 51% (see the doc I linked above) IF you buy and build a complete new empennage yourself.

Before you totally dismiss this, there is some market for the existing empennage parts. People keep flipping planes, hangar rash, windstorm damage... and would rather buy a tail than build one.

If you need help understanding the 51% give me a call, I'm on the build assist list here at VAF.

Of course this all assumes you can clear the other hurdles (like proof of ownership of the build number) that are noted by others above.

blaplante said:

Assuming the ailerons and flaps are not completed, you might be able to do enough yourself to meet the 51% (see the doc I linked above) IF you buy and build a complete new empennage yourself.

Before you totally dismiss this, there is some market for the existing empennage parts. People keep flipping planes, hangar rash, windstorm damage... and would rather buy a tail than build one.

If you need help understanding the 51% give me a call, I'm on the build assist list here at VAF.

Of course this all assumes you can clear the other hurdles (like proof of ownership of the build number) that are noted by others above.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Let me read through that doc first and pm you if I need further help. I'm getting nods and green lights here at my local EAA chapter, so am more than a bit confused.

Regarding selling the empennage, wouldn't the person buying it just be inheriting the same problem I now face?

The ownership has checked out (via phone with Vans).
I've also located all the prior owners online, and all except 1 has gotten back to me. So hopefully I'll be able to piece together the build provenance. Do you think a signed statement from prior builders, with approximate dates of subassembly completion, will be sufficient? or does it need to be a photo essay like what I often see online?

thanks again for the advice.

-c

Van's RV6 QB standard kits came with ALL control surfaces finished except for the elevator trim tab and the rudder. You can see the 6QB offered here by Van's in 1999......

https://web.archive.org/web/19990224104124/http://www.vansaircraft.com/sections/kitquick.htm

If you sell your no build log empennage to someone REPAIRING an already registered RV6, then there are no amateur built restrictions. An owner of an experimental plane can take it to an A&P and pay him to repair / replace any of the structure.

The amateur built restriction is the requirement to get your EAB registration, initially.

So the planes must be largely amateur built, but are not REQUIRED to be amateur repaired.

gasman said:

Van's RV6 QB standard kits came with ALL control surfaces finished except for the elevator trim tab and the rudder. You can see the 6QB offered here by Van's in 1999......

https://web.archive.org/web/19990224104124/http://www.vansaircraft.com/sections/kitquick.htm

Click to expand...

Well, maybe mine were just missing after too many ownership changes and moves, or was an earlier QB?

In any case, the FAA re-did the "51%" rule a while back. The current guidance is dated 2009. As I recall it was revised after there was a bit too much "quick" in quickbuilds? Can we get this plane grandfathered under the old rules? Dunno. Is it worth trying? Can't answer that either.

blaplante said:

If you sell your no build log empennage to someone REPAIRING an already registered RV6, then there are no amateur built restrictions. An owner of an experimental plane can take it to an A&P and pay him to repair / replace any of the structure.

The amateur built restriction is the requirement to get your EAB registration, initially.

So the planes must be largely amateur built, but are not REQUIRED to be amateur repaired.

Click to expand...

Ok. I get it. But it sure sounds like a whole lot of nonsense. Fortunately, as per my earlier post, my online sleuthing (stalking??) has paid off. I’m going ahead with evaluating this purchase despite the incomplete logs.

-c

blaplante said:

Well, maybe mine were just missing after too many ownership changes and moves, or was an earlier QB?

In any case, the FAA re-did the "51%" rule a while back. The current guidance is dated 2009. As I recall it was revised after there was a bit too much "quick" in quickbuilds? Can we get this plane grandfathered under the old rules? Dunno. Is it worth trying? Can't answer that either.

Click to expand...

See this from AC 20-27G which indicates the 6QB to be grandfathered.

I am building a second-hand project RV-6A Quickbuild that I plan to convert to an RV-6. I am uncertain why you are concerned about purchasing a QB RV-6A. The quick build has to be the safest project purchase you could possibly make.

The QB workmanship is second to none. Yes, Van's farmed the assembly out to a third-party in a foreign company to keep costs down, but the quality is control by Vans, and the quality is extremely high. I wouldn't hesitate.

The QB is built to more-or-less the systems installation stage. The wings are fully assembled less the lower wing skins- including the fuel tanks.

The fuselage is built up to the "Boat" stage. The horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer, elevators, ailerons, and flaps are very complete, the flight controls are even balanced.

Without a doubt, there remains plenty of work left to do to complete a quick build, but the primary structure is out of the fixtures and assembled.


This picture shows the QB loaded into a 24 foot Uhaul truck. What you don't see are all of the little and medium sized parts, but they are in there.


This view shows the large assemblies after unloading the truck, and putting the small and medium parts away on the shelves.


Another angle

chubsterini said:

Ok. I get it. But it sure sounds like a whole lot of nonsense. Fortunately, as per my earlier post, my online sleuthing (stalking??) has paid off. I’m going ahead with evaluating this purchase despite the incomplete logs.

-c

Click to expand...

The build log is required to be registered by the FAA as the manufacturer of your airplane. Being the manufacturer allows you to do maintenance and repairs. The build log is not required to receive a certificate of airworthiness from the FAA. The CoA is required to fly your airplane.

How much work has actually been completed beyond the delivered QB state? If not much work has actually occurred, just start a build log to document your work. The FAA will recognize that it is a QB by the serial number, and probably won't be able to discern the gaps in the build log. They are only looking for evidence that amateurs actually did the work.