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  #1  
Old 03-30-2021, 05:54 PM
Pave Tim Pave Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Out West!
Posts: 83
Default SatNav -vs- Land based Nav

Here is my question. How much effort should one put into adding land based navigation capability to an airplane when nearly every airport has GPS approaches? How many times is a GPS approach NOTAM’ed out?

Curious what everyone thinks for our against.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2021, 05:57 PM
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RWoodard RWoodard is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brighton, Colorado
Posts: 444
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I won't have ground-based (VHF) nav in my plane after my Garmin update. Lots of holes in the Swiss cheese would have to line up before the lack of VHF nav would cause me any problems or even an inconvenience.

Just my opinion.
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RV-3 IO-320 Whirlwind 3-blade constant speed
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  #3  
Old 03-30-2021, 06:07 PM
RVDan RVDan is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 901
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If you are doing hard IFR, I’d vote for VHF secondary. While the GPS system is robust, the military plays games. Sometime about now the east coast has a 125nm radius GPS affected zone around some point just off Norfolk thanks to the Navy. That's a big chunk of airspace where GPS may or may not be accurate.
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Frederick, MD
PA28-140
Hph 304CZ
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2021, 06:09 PM
abwaldal@gmail.com abwaldal@gmail.com is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Battle Ground WA
Posts: 184
Default

I would never install anything land based in any aircraft I own even if somebody would pay for it and install if for free.
Period!!! Is that solid enough?
I have had GPS since it first came out.
Now it's on my I-phone, I-pad, Dynon in plane and everywhere else. Great stuff.
Oh ya by the way it ain't going nowhere. To much at stake and to many satellite's in orbit.
Art
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  #5  
Old 03-30-2021, 06:19 PM
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koupster koupster is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SLC, UT (KBTF)
Posts: 273
Default GPS unavailability is not uncommon

That's why my RV has VOR/ILS and a VFR GPS.

I've had my GPS show zero groundspeed and no progress on the moving map on at least two occasions for 20 minutes or so. My phone, which was down between the seats, indicated normally. I theorize that the phone was shielded from the jamming/spoofing by the airframe, but still had a good GPS signal.

Here's the current GPS notams for my airport:

Navigation NOTAMs

!GPS 03/087 KZLC Navigation Global Positioning System (WSMRNM Global Positioning System 21-07) (including Wide Area Augmentation System, ground-based augmentation system, and ADS-B) May not be available WI A 359 nautical miles radius centered at 333706N1063053W (TCS049043) flight level 400-unlimited, 312 nautical miles radius at flight level 250, 222 nautical miles radius at 10,000 feet, 220 nautical miles radius at 4,000 feet above ground level, 164 nautical miles radius at 50 feet above ground level. Daily 0600-1400 Mar 30, 2021 0600Z to Apr 2, 2021 1400Z

!GPS 03/079 KZLC Navigation Global Positioning System (WSMRNM Global Positioning System 21-22) (including Wide Area Augmentation System, ground-based augmentation system, and ADS-B) May not be available WI A 352 nautical miles radius centered at 332953N1063527W (TCS056037) flight level 400-unlimited, 296 nautical miles radius at flight level 250, 233 nautical miles radius at 10,000 feet, 232 nautical miles radius at 4,000 feet above ground level, 161 nautical miles radius at 50 feet above ground level daily 1830-2230 Mar 26, 2021 1830Z to Apr 6, 2021 2230Z

!GPS 11/021 GPS Navigation PRN 11 unserviceable Nov 10, 2020 1500Z to Apr 7, 2021 1500Z
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  #6  
Old 03-30-2021, 07:00 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,341
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I worry more about non-notamed outages. With no notice, I’ve watched a 650 degrade from LPV to LNAV, then go to a big red X, while below 1000’ agl on an approach. We were in vmc by then, but it makes you think....
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  #7  
Old 03-30-2021, 07:20 PM
David Z David Z is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
Posts: 589
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Call me old fashioned, but when the weather gets really soupy and we're near minimums, I'll pick the ILS over an LPV every day of the week. I'm also that weirdo that tunes the NDBs when flying around in the work plane.

I've had LPV approaches line me up with the runway edge lights. The ILS always seems to be perfectly down the runway centerline every time.

If I were building an IFR capable aircraft, adding the VHF nav capability wouldn't even take a second thought. I'd have dual GPS, and single VHF nav (leaving the ADF on the store shelf). Probably a Garmin 650 as primary and a 375 as the back-up GPS, but of course do more shopping around.
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  #8  
Old 03-30-2021, 07:25 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,680
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I know enough about solar flares, the military, people with jammers, bad TNC connections, bad antennas, etc. any of which of these failure modes has me convinced to have VHF nav onboard.
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2021, 08:16 PM
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larrynew larrynew is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In New Braunfels, ist das Leben schön!
Posts: 899
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The extras for ILS/VOR were easy and inexpensive if the navigator already has the capability. I installed them in both RVs. Almost no downside to having.
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2021, 09:02 PM
Taltruda Taltruda is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abwaldal@gmail.com View Post
I would never install anything land based in any aircraft I own even if somebody would pay for it and install if for free.
Period!!! Is that solid enough?
I have had GPS since it first came out.
Now it's on my I-phone, I-pad, Dynon in plane and everywhere else. Great stuff.
Oh ya by the way it ain't going nowhere. To much at stake and to many satellite's in orbit.
Art
I've flown through the desert in the southwest plenty of times and had GPS losses from military jamming.. I DEFINITELY plan to have a ground based nav in my plane. I don't think I would feel comfortable flying IFR without it.

If you find that person to install free ground based nav equipment, send me his number!
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Wings Started.. 11-2020

Last edited by Taltruda : 03-30-2021 at 09:12 PM.
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