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POH, the FAA & Certificate action ...

wcalvert

wcalvert

Well Known Member
The simple question is this: Would the FAA use the POH I wrote against me after an incident/accident, if a causal factor was found related to me not following a procedure spelled out in the document?

In the certified world, the OP SPEC is the bible, and the FAA will issue action if non adherence is found, incident or not.

So is there anything I should omit? Leave unwritten? or assumed? Or am I just jaded by years of being threatened by the "man"?!

Anyone out there with some informed insight?

Cheers
 
No expertise here, however, if the POH is not in the plane, there is no real way for the FAA to know what is in it. They don't collect that info during your registration or A/W cert. Even if it is in the plane, you don't need to tell them it is there, as one is not required.

Larry
 
OP SPECs are specific to part 121 and 135 flying. The POH is an information guide for you and the next owner. Part 91 is the regulatory rule book.
 
My understanding that a real "POH" is a legal document that is part of the airplane's Type Certificate, required since 1975. Experimental, amateur-built aircraft do not have a Type Certificate, hence, cannot have a real POH.

About the only paperwork items that could get you in trouble are not carrying your operating limits and weight and balance in the airplane -- at least, as far as I know.

I'm not a lawyer, and I did not get that part in the TV series...
 
Yes

I questioned my DAR on this and that was the answer; EAB do NOT require a POH.

There are many that DO create a nice POH for their EAB, however, it is NOT legally required.
 
rocketman1988 said:
I questioned my DAR on this and that was the answer; EAB do NOT require a POH.
There are many that DO create a nice POH for their EAB, however, it is NOT legally required.
Click to expand...

The Operating Limitations issued to an amateur-built aircraft serve as a POH and they ARE binding.
 
bill.hutchison said:
Do any of your Operating Limitations say "not to be operated over populated areas?"
Click to expand...

Here is the wording contained in the currently issued Op Lims for EAB aircraft:

Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or when sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground. (55)
 
I am not FAA nor a lawyer, but I have had some up close discussions with both and would fully assume the POH could and would be used against you if a significant event occurred. Less is more!!! Don't write a POH that has a load of BS and fluff. May be fun and cool, but don't.
 
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Low Pass said:
I am not FAA nor a lawyer, but I have had some up close discussions with both and would fully assume the POH could and would be used against you if a significant event occurred. Less is more!!! Don't write a POH that has a load of BS and fluff. May be fun and cool, but don't.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, one of the biggest growing safety (and maintenance headache) concerns in our world is second and third owners having no clue how their aircraft is wired, plumbed or - in general - built. This is leading to a growing consensus that builders need to better document the aircraft in some sort of owner/pilot handbook for “the next guy” - even if the builder doesn’t think they will ever sell it.

I have seen a lot of strange things done to instrumentation, fuel, and electrical systems that can lead a pilot to grief on a dark and scary night if they don't understand what the builder did - so putting together a reasonable level of documentation that a follow-on owner can use (other than the drawer full of napkin sketches many have) can help future generations.

Fear of being violated? I guess if you are operating over gross, or IFR in a VFR only airplane (that is documented as such) or doing acro in an airplane that was never tested for it - yeah, that’s a problem. But if the checklist says to always use the fuel pump for takeoff and landing, and you don’t and the engine quits on take-off because of low fuel pressure? Hmmm....interesting case, and no, I am not a lawyer either....
 
Mel said:
Here is the wording contained in the currently issued Op Lims for EAB aircraft:

Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or when sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground. (55)
Click to expand...

Hmm. I'm wondering when that was changed?

My op limitations are not as specific as that. I'm wondering if it makes sense to get something with updated language. Or does the updated language automatically apply as "current reg" even though mine specifically don't contain it because of when it was issued. Thoughts?
 
bill.hutchison said:
Hmm. I'm wondering when that was changed?
My op limitations are not as specific as that. I'm wondering if it makes sense to get something with updated language. Or does the updated language automatically apply as "current reg" even though mine specifically don't contain it because of when it was issued. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Updated language does NOT automatically apply to older Op Lims. Your aircraft is to operated in accordance with the Op Lims that were issued to it.

To obtain the new language, you will need to have your Op Lims amended by your local FSDO or a DAR.
 
Mel said:
Here is the wording contained in the currently issued Op Lims for EAB aircraft:

Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or when sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure without hazard to persons or property on the ground. (55)
Click to expand...

My Phase 2 op limits were written in 2011 and that's pretty much what it says...

...
 

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Mel said:
Updated language does NOT automatically apply to older Op Lims. Your aircraft is to operated in accordance with the Op Lims that were issued to it.

To obtain the new language, you will need to have your Op Lims amended by your local FSDO or a DAR.
Click to expand...

I will need to look into this.
 
Ironflight said:
On the other hand, one of the biggest growing safety (and maintenance headache) concerns in our world is second and third owners having no clue how their aircraft is wired, plumbed or - in general - built. This is leading to a growing consensus that builders need to better document the aircraft in some sort of owner/pilot handbook for “the next guy” - even if the builder doesn’t think they will ever sell it.

I have seen a lot of strange things done to instrumentation, fuel, and electrical systems that can lead a pilot to grief on a dark and scary night if they don't understand what the builder did - so putting together a reasonable level of documentation that a follow-on owner can use (other than the drawer full of napkin sketches many have) can help future generations.

Fear of being violated? I guess if you are operating over gross, or IFR in a VFR only airplane (that is documented as such) or doing acro in an airplane that was never tested for it - yeah, that’s a problem. But if the checklist says to always use the fuel pump for takeoff and landing, and you don’t and the engine quits on take-off because of low fuel pressure? Hmmm....interesting case, and no, I am not a lawyer either....
Click to expand...
I have two three inch ring binders full of wiring diagrams, receipts, documents, drawings, etc. that are my aircraft reference material. If/when I sell, they'll go with the plane. My point was not to put any more in the POH than is necessary for safe normal operation of the plane. Put the rest in a safe location somewhere else. I keep my binders in the hangar. Logs are in a fire resistant box in the house. I do have my wiring diagram/connections table on my google drive, so in theory I could access it on the road.
 
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Ironflight said:
On the other hand, one of the biggest growing safety (and maintenance headache) concerns in our world is second and third owners having no clue how their aircraft is wired, plumbed or - in general - built. This is leading to a growing consensus that builders need to better document the aircraft in some sort of owner/pilot handbook for “the next guy” - even if the builder doesn’t think they will ever sell it.

I have seen a lot of strange things done to instrumentation, fuel, and electrical systems that can lead a pilot to grief on a dark and scary night if they don't understand what the builder did - so putting together a reasonable level of documentation that a follow-on owner can use (other than the drawer full of napkin sketches many have) can help future generations.

Fear of being violated? I guess if you are operating over gross, or IFR in a VFR only airplane (that is documented as such) or doing acro in an airplane that was never tested for it - yeah, that’s a problem. But if the checklist says to always use the fuel pump for takeoff and landing, and you don’t and the engine quits on take-off because of low fuel pressure? Hmmm....interesting case, and no, I am not a lawyer either....
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer either but I suspect that common sense and minimal risk of litigation contradict each other here. As more you write as more somebody can proof easily that you did something wrong. If the buyer does something wrong because they didn't understand it you are not liable ... .

Oliver
 
I am a lawyer...

...and suggest that this is yet another excellent opportunity to not take legal advice from anyone (definitely including me) on the Internet.


spatsch said:
I am not a lawyer either but I suspect that common sense and minimal risk of litigation contradict each other here. As more you write as more somebody can proof easily that you did something wrong. If the buyer does something wrong because they didn't understand it you are not liable ... .

Oliver
Click to expand...
 
wcalvert said:
The simple question is this: Would the FAA use the POH I wrote against me after an incident/accident, if a causal factor was found related to me not following a procedure spelled out in the document?
Click to expand...

First off, I would not mention anything on internet forums.

Second, if there was a violation or a potential violation, you can fill out the NASA report----used to be close to a "get out of jail card" when they first came out, not sure if that is still true.
 
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Mike S said:
Second, if there was a violation or a potential violation, you can fill out the NASA report----used to be close to a "get out of jail card" when they first came out, not sure if that is still true.
Click to expand...

Still true, as long as the conditions are met (excerpted from BoldMethod -- more good info here):

If the FAA finds that you've violated a regulation, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed on you, as long as:

  • The violation reported must have been inadvertent, not deliberate.
  • The violation must not have involved a crime, accident, or lack of qualification or competency on the part of the reporter.
  • Evidence of having filed an ASRS report within 10 days of the event's occurrence (your receipt) must be presented
  • Immunity from action under the ASRS cannot have been used in the last five years.
Click to expand...
 
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