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7A take off technique question

hevansrv7a

hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
I have been holding mild back pressure right from the start of the take off roll so as to unload the nose wheel before speed builds up.

I've been flying with a very knowledgeable CFI who keeps asking me why I'm using soft field technique for every take off. We are only using paved runways.

What are other 7A and 9A pilots using? I'm not asking about other A models because the nose wheel/leg problems have been mostly in these two models. But everyone is invited to advise me.

Thanks.
 
You are doing it right, treat every field as a soft field. Get the nose light asap, and hold it off on landing.
 
Mel said:
The nose wheel is for taxiing, not take-offs and landings!
Click to expand...

While I agree that for many small single engine nosewheel airplanes, this is true, but for twins and up, the nosewheel is used for takeoff until Vr. It is all a matter of design intent.

Due to the small diameter nosewheel, the Vans nosewheel airplanes are particularly susceptible to nosewheel loads induced by runway surface issues. Therefore the less time in contact with the runway, the less opportunity for discovering a hidden runway rut or hole.

So, in your 7A hold the back pressure.
 
hevansrv7a said:
I have been holding mild back pressure right from the start of the take off roll so as to unload the nose wheel before speed builds up.

I've been flying with a very knowledgeable CFI who keeps asking me why I'm using soft field technique for every take off. We are only using paved runways.

What are other 7A and 9A pilots using? I'm not asking about other A models because the nose wheel/leg problems have been mostly in these two models. But everyone is invited to advise me.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

That technique has served me well for the past 1500 hrs. in my -7A. How knowledgeable is your CFI about RVs?
 
Ours: Not "mild" back pressure, but stick ALL the way back at all times just prior to engine start until the nose wheel comes off the ground. Only then, modulating back pressure to keep it 3" (?) off the ground and NOT let it touch again until, ideally, setting it down softly just as the stick hits the aft stop on roll out.

Don't get me started about the what-if, like blowing 35kts - G45 left quartering tail and trying to taxi. Boy, that is the time I wish the wheel is on the other end.
 
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What Scott says. It is what I do every time, and how I teach it when transition training in all nose-wheel Van's, -6a through 12.
 
Your CFI probably came out of Cessnas & Pipers. On those airplanes, nose wheel steering and a robust strut means there's some advantage to leaving weight on the nose until airspeed comes up and the rudder becomes effective. Tons of people just leave it neutral until Vr and there's no reason not to do it that way on those planes unless you get one with a worn out shimmy dampener.

On anything with a castering nose gear, the only benefits I can see to leaving the nose down is maybe visibility and a slightly shorter T.O. roll. I suppose depending on the plane, it might be helpful if you were taking off in a ripping crosswind.

I'm a total rookie with Rv's, and in fact have never flown one yet, but I'd say keep doing what you're doing if it works for you.
 
That may have been his preference, but it's not in the T.O. checklist that way, nor is it specified in the PTS standards. I agree that it does tend to make the shimmy damper last longer though.
 
My technique for both 7A or the 14A
Taxi with the stick pulled all the way back to my tummy. During takeoff, it is the same unless our German Shephard or some other heave weight in the baggage compartment in which case I will ease up on that so the nose wheel does not come up abruptly. As soon as the nose wheel is off the ground, I ease up the stick in such way to keep the cowl parallel to the ground.

Now days I don?t even know that I am doing that, it is a muscle memory now.

I have been questioned about this technique by the Cesena type flyers but I am so use to it that I do it even flying a A36 Bonanza
 
Hey, guys --

Lots of opinions, lots of bluster, but very little justification for what folks have written and nobody seems to consider anything other than nose strut wear.

Can we take the discussion up a few notches?

Ed
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Hey, guys --

Lots of opinions, lots of bluster, but very little justification for what folks have written and nobody seems to consider anything other than nose strut wear.

Can we take the discussion up a few notches?

Ed
Click to expand...

I previously mentioned that the RV?s use very small nosewheel tire sizes, I believe to reduce drag of the nosewheel assembly. A trade off for speed.

Just looking at the impact that has on the ability of a small tire to accommodate surface irregularities, shows that the tire will be not transition surface irregularities as well as a larger tire. This is born out by looking at the use of tundra tires for very rough surfaces as would be done on a Cessna Caravan.

The geometry of a small tire means that on contact with say, a small hole in the surface, there are higher rearward loads imposed on the gear leg as the tire impacts the edge of the hole, and the edge acts as a chock. Just like you can use a smaller chock on smaller tires than larger tires.

The American General aircraft use a similar geometry for the nose gear leg and fork, but the tire is significantly larger. Less problems.

Of course, this assumes that you don?t put weight on the nose gear during initial touchdown, to excessively load the nose gear. As Mel stated, the nosewheel is not meant to absorb vertical landing loads, that?s what the main gear is for.


I have a -6A and accept the tire size trade for speed.
 
Umm...

"...Of course, this assumes that you don?t put weight on the nose gear during initial touchdown, to excessively load the nose gear. As Mel stated, the nosewheel is not meant to absorb vertical landing loads, that?s what the main gear is for..."

Really? Is this even a thing?

If you are landing a tricycle gear airplane ON THE NOSEWHEEL, you seriously should consider some additional training...
 
As stated above-memory muscle stick full aft followed by relaxing nose-up as nose attitude is established.

Jim Diehl 7A
Lock Haven, Pa
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Hey, guys --

Lots of opinions, lots of bluster, but very little justification for what folks have written and nobody seems to consider anything other than nose strut wear.

Can we take the discussion up a few notches?

Ed
Click to expand...

Here's my (not Doppler) notch:

There is a notable history that nose wheel RV's have a significant risk of tipping over in rough terrain landings, planned or otherwise. So much so that some have made a successful business out of providing enhancements to mitigate that risk. It is my humble opinion that risk mitigation is a good thing. Towards that end, keeping weight off the nose wheel at all times, instilling 'Muscle Memory' for landing and ground operations, will further mitigate risk, and hopefully lead to a better outcome, should one find oneself in a rough terrain landing.
 
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The topic is nosewheel off on TAKEOFF. Landing is a different topic. Landing comments are IRRELEVANT to this thread.

Things that nobody is talking about:
* How much nose up on takeoff, and when, and why;
* Getting the wings light in crosswind conditions before ailerons can take effect;
* Narrow runway operations where nose too high can obscure the runway;
* Flap settings;
* Probably some other things.
 
scard said:
Ours: Not "mild" back pressure, but stick ALL the way back at all times just prior to engine start until the nose wheel comes off the ground. Only then, modulating back pressure to keep it 3" (?) off the ground and NOT let it touch again until, ideally, setting it down softly just as the stick hits the aft stop on roll out.

Don't get me started about the what-if, like blowing 35kts - G45 left quartering tail and trying to taxi. Boy, that is the time I wish the wheel is on the other end.
Click to expand...

Exactly! My technique for KELLI GIRL as well. I get the nose up ASAP, and keep it up as far into the landing roll as possible. I choose to never rely on the nose strut for any load-bearing duties as long as the elevator has authority, both for takeoff AND for landing. I do have the Anti-Splat strut, but that's the contingency plan should the nose strut want to fail.

Jarhead taught me these things, and when Jarhead speaks, it's the law.
 
Oscillation

There's another not-yet-mentioned-in-this-thread reason to keep the nose wheel up in takeoff and landing: Nose strut oscillation. See this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhthU9nhDgo

I'm not the most technically savvy guy here, but I do know of two factors that impact nose strut performance in the typical A-model: Nose strut's fore/aft elasticity, and bearing drag. I know you're aware of the nose strut failure risk on sub-optimum landing surfaces (ex: soft field). Bearing drag happens in standard Van's nose wheel non-sealed (packed) bearings when the wheel spins faster than the bearings can accommodate, which makes the wheel drag back against the wheel's rotation. The wheels drag back, but then the strut's elastic reaction overpowers the bearing drag and snaps the wheel forward. Repeat. Enter the oscillation, shown quite well in the video.

Alan has addressed both of those through the anti-splat brace and his nose wheel sealed bearing mod. Still, you might expect some level of fore/aft oscillation during takeoff and landing around the (fact-check me here, Alan) 25-35 KGS speed range.

Getting the nose off the ground soon on takeoff (and keeping it up as far into the landing as possible) helps mitigate those problems.
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
Hey, guys --

Lots of opinions, lots of bluster, but very little justification for what folks have written and nobody seems to consider anything other than nose strut wear.

Can we take the discussion up a few notches?

Ed
Click to expand...

Ok,
Here is one that hasn't been mentioned yet.

Lifting the nose wheel off the runway as early as possible increases the rudder effectiveness when countering a cross wind.

Because tri gear RV's have a free castoring nose wheel, leaving it on the ground does not improve directional steering ability like a steerable nose wheel does on other aircraft.
In fact, it actually induces additional turning tendency.
When the airplane yaws from forces induced by p factor or cross wind, the nose wheel turns, causing the airplane to steer even more in the undesired direction.
If the nose wheel is lifted above the runway (even 1/4"). This influence is removed.

This is most noticeable in the RV-12 because it has a relatively large vertical tail area for its size, and has less HP (equals lower velocity prop blast having an influence on the rudder). On the RV-12, the yaw controlability at low speed early in a take-off run with a strong left cross wind (worse case because that causes additional yaw influence in the direction that p factor / torque are already inducing) is increased by about 30% (my personal guess.... not a scientifically derived value) if the nose wheel is lifted as early as possible.
The difference is less with other RV models but still noticeable.

In conditions that most people would consider flying in, there is not usually a control-ability problem if the nose wheel is left on the ground, but lifting it does add additional rudder authority that could be very useful in gusty conditions if hit by a sudden strong gust from the left.
 
I believe Mike Seager, who reportedly has more RV hours than anyone else in the world (most of it in transition training), is the guru on this topic. He taught me to unload the nose gear on take-off as soon as there was sufficient elevator authority to do so. And that's exactly what I do. My nose gear on my RV7A (IO360 and CS prop) is typically off the asphalt within about 10 metres. I start with the stick full back and relax it forward as the nose lifts off. In my take-off there is absolutely no rotation...the plane just flies itself off the runway when it is ready. On landing I keep the nose gear off the runway until there is virtually no elevator authority left. I typically put the nose down when there is still a little bit of authority left so that the nosegear is not plopped down onto the asphalt. As others have said, taxiing is with stick full back.
 
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Most have got the gist of how to treat a nose whell plane but for me I pull hard back initially then push hard fwd to get the tail up, oh sorry we are talking about the training wheel version of Vans I see, I retract my statement:D
 
Capt said:
Most have got the gist of how to treat a nose whell plane but for me I pull hard back initially then push hard fwd to get the tail up, oh sorry we are talking about the training wheel version of Vans I see, I retract my statement:D
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No worries, we'll be there to pull you out of the weeds.
 
Nah.... leave him in the weeds. Tail wheel pilots seem to 'know it all' so wouldn't need any help.

BTW its spelt wheel, not whell 😊
 
Capt said:
Most have got the gist of how to treat a nose whell plane but for me I pull hard back initially then push hard fwd to get the tail up, oh sorry we are talking about the training wheel version of Vans I see, I retract my statement:D
Click to expand...
Stop with the Tailwheel ****. I fly both and the constant ribbing by the tail wheel guys is arrogant. Yesterday some "super flyer" in a classic tailwheel decided to crowd me when he was behind me in the pattern then when I went to refuel literally took the gas pump while in was in the midst of refueling then said " oh you're using it." Then went over to my plane uninvited and starting poking around my cockpit.

Just sayin'
 
hevansrv7a said:
I have been holding mild back pressure right from the start of the take off roll so as to unload the nose wheel before speed builds up.

I've been flying with a very knowledgeable CFI who keeps asking me why I'm using soft field technique for every take off. We are only using paved runways.

What are other 7A and 9A pilots using? I'm not asking about other A models because the nose wheel/leg problems have been mostly in these two models. But everyone is invited to advise me.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Well this has been turned into quite a discussion. Back to the original post. I think your CFI needs to review his soft field procedures. What you are doing is the first part of a soft field takeoff and is generally correct for most all takeoffs. As mentioned vertical loads are not ever good for a nose wheel or any wheel for that matter but horizontal loads are a lot worse. When rolling forward and the wheel meets something that it has to go over it imparts a horizontal force and a vertical force on the nose gear. The bigger the tire the less this force. My .02
 
Also my practice

This is exactly how I handle my -9A. I generally taxi with the stick full back, also.

Did the same thing in my Warrior II, with its considerably beefier nosegear.

One advantage to this - if you put the plane in a slightly nose up posture on takeoff, and let it fly when it's ready, I theorize you're less likely to yank it up too early and then mush along in ground effect. Not sure I'm right about that. In any event, RV takeoff performance is usually so good that mushing along isn't a problem. Not so with the Warrior on a hot day. :)

Captain Avgas said:
I believe Mike Seager, who reportedly has more RV hours than anyone else in the world (most of it in transition training), is the guru on this topic. He taught me to unload the nose gear on take-off as soon as there was sufficient elevator authority to do so. And that's exactly what I do. My nose gear on my RV7A (IO360 and CS prop) is typically off the asphalt within about 10 metres. I start with the stick full back and relax it forward as the nose lifts off. In my take-off there is absolutely no rotation...the plane just flies itself off the runway when it is ready. On landing I keep the nose gear off the runway until there is virtually no elevator authority left. I typically put the nose down when there is still a little bit of authority left so that the nosegear is not plopped down onto the asphalt. As others have said, taxiing is with stick full back.
Click to expand...
 
Captain Avgas said:
I believe Mike Seager, who reportedly has more RV hours than anyone else in the world (most of it in transition training), is the guru on this topic. He taught me to unload the nose gear on take-off as soon as there was sufficient elevator authority to do so. And that's exactly what I do. My nose gear on my RV7A (IO360 and CS prop) is typically off the asphalt within about 10 metres. I start with the stick full back and relax it forward as the nose lifts off. In my take-off there is absolutely no rotation...the plane just flies itself off the runway when it is ready. On landing I keep the nose gear off the runway until there is virtually no elevator authority left. I typically put the nose down when there is still a little bit of authority left so that the nosegear is not plopped down onto the asphalt. As others have said, taxiing is with stick full back.
Click to expand...

Yep...Mike taught me:

Taxi - stick all the way back
Lined up on the runway - stick centered for a moment as power rolled on, to let the nosegear caster to straight in line, then very very shortly after that
Take-off roll - stick comes back to get the nose off the ground as soon as possible (not "yanked back", but smooth and rapid), then hold the nose off and let her fly off

Easy peasy.
 
OK, Thanks. Asked and Answered

My CFI and I, having reviewed this thread have come to an agreement and I will be continuing to use the technique that everyone says is correct.

THANKS.
 
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