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Aerobatic training in a new RV-7?

birddog486

Well Known Member
I'm just starting to think about doing aerobatics in my new RV-7 (which I've just signed out of phase I, without the aerobatics verbiage) and trying to decide the best course of action.

Would you, as an aerobatics noob, find an aerobatics instructor that will train you in your NEW airplane? (Put the plane back into phase I and use the additional pilot program for aerobatic training/testing)

Or,

Would you rent a plane and instructor and get familiar with all the maneuvers you'd like to fly in the RV and then do the testing in your plane on your own?
 
I chose to start with a course in a Super D and I went on from there before flying acro in my 6 but that's just me. Another consideration is your aerobatic weight with 2 people plus chutes. I also have a lower acro gross weight so two onboard isn't an option with the full 6G margin. Van wrote some good articles about gentleman acro in his planes some years ago worth googling.
 
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I chose to start with a course in a Super D and I went on from there before flying acro in my 6 but that's just me. Another consideration is your aerobatic weight with 2 people plus chutes. I also have a lower acro gross weight so two onboard isn't an option with the 6G margin. Van wrote some good articles about gentleman acro in his planes some years ago worth googling.

What he said above, I endorse fully.

1. Get to know your RV.
2. Take a basic aerobatic course.
3. Take an RV experienced aerobatic instructor with you in your plane for a few hours of aerobatic instruction. Unless both instructor and yourself are on the lighter side it will be impossible to stay within the aerobatic weight limits.

Citabria's/Decatlon's and other high drag biplanes can behave quite differently than a slick RV. I recently heard a story about a very highly experienced and well known aerobatic instructor that was surprised by the RV's pitch attitude and rotation rate during a spin.

The RV is an amazing aerobat but performing aerobatics in a new airplane is not to be taken lightly.
 
I'm just starting to think about doing aerobatics in my new RV-7 (which I've just signed out of phase I, without the aerobatics verbiage) and trying to decide the best course of action.

Would you, as an aerobatics noob, find an aerobatics instructor that will train you in your NEW airplane? (Put the plane back into phase I and use the additional pilot program for aerobatic training/testing)

Or,

Would you rent a plane and instructor and get familiar with all the maneuvers you'd like to fly in the RV and then do the testing in your plane on your own?

Hi Travis,

I recently answered similar questions via PM for new RV pilot in Texas. I'll pass some of the same information on to you.

My friend Gordon Penner has a series of videos that you should find interesting. Gordon is a master CFI and aerobatic instructor who has put together a comprehensive series of videos that speak to people just like you. Go to YouTube and search with his full name.

The best reading I have found is "Better Aerobatics" by Alan Cassidy. You should probably see Gordon's videos before reading Alan's book as he gets a lot more technical and you should have some basic understanding of aerobatics before getting immersed in the details.

If you are brand new to aerobatics it is essential that you get some training on spin and unusual attitude recovery before you do anything else. You know that dual instruction is difficult to get in an RV because of the weight and CG limitations with two aboard plus parachutes. Training in an Extra or Decathlon transfers quite well to the RV so I recommend you find someone provide that training before you venture out on your own in your RV. Once you are confident that you can recover from inadvertent spins or lost of control you should practice at altitude to perfect the basic maneuvers. Go high enough to safely recover from a misstep, 6000 AGL is a good cushion.

Perfecting the fine details requires the help of a critique from the ground. Your nearest IAC chapter can help in this regard. The Chicago chapter is IAC Chapter 1 and they are very active and have some of the best instructors in the country.

IAC 1
Greater Chicago, IL
President: Todd Ashcraft
Contact: 630-310-0844 | [email protected]
Meetings: Every Last Friday 6:00 PM
Website: IAC1.eaachapter.org
 
I often read the word parachute/s when aero's are being discussed, is it mandatory to wear them over in the USA!
 
I often read the word parachute/s when aero's are being discussed, is it mandatory to wear them over in the USA!

You can do solo aerobatics without a parachute but when passenger(s) on board everyone must wear a chute.
 
I often read the word parachute/s when aero's are being discussed, is it mandatory to wear them over in the USA!

The regs are a little screwy, actually. Chutes aren't required for aerobatics per se, but are required for bank angles above 60? and pitch exceeding 30?. Full details are at FAR (Federal Air Regulations) 91.307(c). Theoretically, if you can do a spin without exceeding those limits...

So what is aerobatics? FAR 91.303 says... For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

But aerobatics per se, according to the regs' definition, does not require chutes.

One former Chief Counsel for the FAA said that the FARs were, "a monument to vagueness." There are many good folks in the FAA, and many of the other kind as well, so...
 
Yeah, I would get an instructor. It's good to have a solid foundation of the fundamentals. RV's aren't the best aerobatic planes to learn in because they are very slippery. You can quickly blow through VNE if you botch a maneuver and aren't on your nose low recovery game.

Re: parachutes, I typically don't wear them if the other person is a pilot as well. Consider them a "crew member" to comply with the reg. Can anyone comment on whether or not that's ok under the FARs?
 
Re: parachutes, I typically don't wear them if the other person is a pilot as well. Consider them a "crew member" to comply with the reg. Can anyone comment on whether or not that's ok under the FARs?

You can consider them a "fruit" if you like, but I wouldn't try to have them for a snack. :D

No single-pilot airplane requires a second crewmember for any operation. Good luck trying to get that one past the FAA and/or the insurance companies (and their lawyers!) should it ever come to that. It's always best to obey both the letter and obvious intent of the regs.

It's simple: if you're doing aerobatics (in the US) with more than one person onboard, everyone must be wearing a parachute. Period.
 
Thread drift

No single-pilot airplane requires a second crewmember for any operation. d.

I can?t let this go. If the pilot is under the hood in vfr, the regs require a second crewmember, a safety pilot. This is a particular sore point for me, because I periodically serve as a non-PIC safety pilot for friends, and the FAA requires me to have a standard medical for this, not Basic Med.

As to parachutes: although not required by the FARs for solo aerobatics, I believe the FAA sometimes insists on parachutes before issuing low altitude waivers. Is there any common sense here?
 
"parachutes, I typically don't wear them if the other person is a pilot as well. Consider them a "crew member" to comply with the reg. Can anyone comment on whether or not that's ok under the FARs?"


Some time ago I watched a youtube vid with two people flying acro with no chutes. Curious, I read the comments and this FAR was mentioned.

As an active CFI, I became curious if I could fly acro with a student in my RV with no chutes. I asked AOPA Legal and an Inspector at my local FSDO for an interpretation.

Both sources said "no" you need chutes. But my Inspector further added that I can teach "unusual attitudes" with no chutes for the purpose of training, but not perform a "full routine". He also reemphasized the importance of logging duel given to prove it was flight training for the unusal attitudes and not a joy ride.

YMMV
 
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Re: parachutes, I typically don't wear them if the other person is a pilot as well. Consider them a "crew member" to comply with the reg. Can anyone comment on whether or not that's ok under the FARs?


Some time ago I watched a youtube vid with two people flying acro with no chutes. Curious, I read the comments and this FAR was mentioned.

As an active CFI, I became curious if I could fly acro with a student in my RV with no chutes. I asked AOPA Legal and an Inspector at my local FSDO for an interpretation.

Both sources said "no" you need chutes. But my Inspector further added that I can teach "unusual attitudes" with no chutes for the purpose of training, but not perform a "full routine".

YMMV[/QUOTE]

The actual FAR says that a cfi may give instruction in ?any maneuver required by the regulations? without parachutes. Unusual attitudes are required for an instrument rating, spins are required for a cfi rating, so both these may be taught sans chutes. Inverted flight, no.
 
"The actual FAR says that a cfi may give instruction in ‘any maneuver required by the regulations’ without parachutes. Unusual attitudes are required for an instrument rating, spins are required for a cfi rating, so both these may be taught sans chutes. Inverted flight, no."

FAA inspector widened the definition for training required for an aircraft check out in addition to a new rating. I believe Flight Reviews could also fit the intent of the rule.

All this to be said...It is very hard to legally and safely teach acro in RVs.
 
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"The actual FAR says that a cfi may give instruction in ‘any maneuver required by the regulations’ without parachutes. Unusual attitudes are required for an instrument rating, spins are required for a cfi rating, so both these may be taught sans chutes. Inverted flight, no."

FAA inspector widened the definition for training required for an aircraft check out in addition to a new rating. I believe Flight Reviews could also fit the intent of the rule.

All this to be said...It is very hard to legally and safely teach acro in RVs.
As was said the FAR's are vague and clear as mud here. However the caveat I recall (rusty memory alert) is a maneuver for training toward a rating. Example a CFI teaching another pilot for CFI rating can do the three spins to left, three to right without chutes. However our school had an Aerobat and chutes.

FAA Inspector can say what he wants. That is no legal ruling or explicit statement in the Regs. He said is a rumor. There is no aerobatic rating or legit training for a rating that requires, loops, rolls; No Flt review or check out requires Aerobatics (none)... thus I interpreted it as follows:
  • Solo pilot no chute to do aerobatics provided plane & airspace are legal.
  • Two people chutes required to do aerobatics.
RV's are not hard to teach Aerobatics in. Did it many times. If you are talking about gross weight, two bubba's and full fuel yes it might not be legal (within Van's limits). RV-7 and RV-8 have decent allowable crew weight for Aerobatics, if empty weight of aircraft is reasonable, not ridiculously high. RV-6 not so much, harder to say in Acro W&B. Keeping your RV light is always good.

Seriously when I do aerobatics I wear my chute, even solo. If I have a passenger I borrow one.

What ever you do READ everything Van's Aircraft has written about aerobatics in RV's including entry speeds and techniques. I am not going to teach you here, but the RV is very easy to lopp and roll, but screwing up can result in excess speed beyound limits and possible airframe overload. It is not something to take lightly.
 
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The regs are a little screwy, actually. Chutes aren't required for aerobatics per se, but are required for bank angles above 60? and pitch exceeding 30?. Full details are at FAR (Federal Air Regulations) 91.307(c). ...


Is pitch with or without AOA? (path of plane or path of plane plus AOA)

Say you're flying a plane straight and level in slow flight and it's capable of flying at an AOA of 31 degrees.

Are you in aerobatic flight?
 
To the original question. You need the signoff for the aerobatics in phase I. You'll need to put the plane back in Phase I and go through each manuver you want to do. The point is to test the airplane.

Things like spins, that vary significant with CG, may be something you want to explore slowly, especially if you have anything not stock (cowl, gear leg fairings etc.). They may be better suited to starting to test with one person aboard. A good spin test series is something that shouldn't be skipped or done without some thought.
 
Is pitch with or without AOA? (path of plane or path of plane plus AOA)

Say you're flying a plane straight and level in slow flight and it's capable of flying at an AOA of 31 degrees.

Are you in aerobatic flight?

Look up FAR 91.303. Here?s a quote ? For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.? (Notice lack of bank or pitch angles)


Please list the civil aircraft capable of 31+ degrees AOA?
 
I simplified with the 31 degrees.

But I could see 16 AOA with a climb gradient of 15 degrees with a high powered plane
 
In summary...

Despite what the FARs may or may not say, when the airplane comes apart due to your screw up, mechanical malfunction or supernatural forces beyond our understanding the question of the legality of wearing a parachute becomes a rather moot point. Don't wear one, you die. Wear one and you may live to see your grandchildren grow up, go to college, get married, build an RV and offer you a ride and ask you if it's OK to do a little aerobatics. Want a chute grandpa?

 
I simplified with the 31 degrees.

But I could see 16 AOA with a climb gradient of 15 degrees with a high powered plane

You're trying to invent an issue that doesn't exist. This thread past post #5 is redundant to many others here that can be found via search.

OP, don't try to do initial acro training in your airplane. Find someone with a Decathlon to do initial training in. It's all transferable to the RV.
 
Hi Travis,

I recently answered similar questions via PM for new RV pilot in Texas. I'll pass some of the same information on to you.

My friend Gordon Penner has a series of videos that you should find interesting. Gordon is a master CFI and aerobatic instructor who has put together a comprehensive series of videos that speak to people just like you. Go to YouTube and search with his full name.

The best reading I have found is "Better Aerobatics" by Alan Cassidy. You should probably see Gordon's videos before reading Alan's book as he gets a lot more technical and you should have some basic understanding of aerobatics before getting immersed in the details.

If you are brand new to aerobatics it is essential that you get some training on spin and unusual attitude recovery before you do anything else. You know that dual instruction is difficult to get in an RV because of the weight and CG limitations with two aboard plus parachutes. Training in an Extra or Decathlon transfers quite well to the RV so I recommend you find someone provide that training before you venture out on your own in your RV. Once you are confident that you can recover from inadvertent spins or lost of control you should practice at altitude to perfect the basic maneuvers. Go high enough to safely recover from a misstep, 6000 AGL is a good cushion.

Perfecting the fine details requires the help of a critique from the ground. Your nearest IAC chapter can help in this regard. The Chicago chapter is IAC Chapter 1 and they are very active and have some of the best instructors in the country.

IAC 1
Greater Chicago, IL
President: Todd Ashcraft
Contact: 630-310-0844 | [email protected]
Meetings: Every Last Friday 6:00 PM
Website: IAC1.eaachapter.org

OP, don't try to do initial acro training in your airplane. Find someone with a Decathlon to do initial training in. It's all transferable to the RV.

Thanks for the info fellas, Ron I checked out the videos, thanks. I do hold a CFI and have done spin training but My old Cherokee 140 that was rated for spins probably doesn't compare to the RV.

I think I'll try to find an instructor and plane and get some aerobatic time with them. I don't have a chute so hopefully I can find someone that can provide that.

As far as buying a chute I'd like to hold off incase I cant get over any nausea I may have doing acro.
 
OP I see you are in WI. Try these -


DISCOVER FLIGHT LLC
Submitted by Jamie Pittman on Sun, 2017-09-03 06:22

ADDRESS:
Oshkosh Airport (KOSH) , Oshkosh, WI, 54902, USA
CONTACT PERSON:
Jamie Pittman
PHONE:
(920) 515-0880
EMAIL:
[email protected](link sends e-mail)
WEB:
letsdiscoverflight.com(link is external)
AIRCRAFT:
(Airmanship & Stick and Rudder) Piper J-3 Cub // (Aerobatics) Pitts S2B // & Aerobatic instruction in customer-owned airplanes may also be arranged
COURSES:
Spin & Upset Training (1 Hour Flight/1-2 Hours Ground) Aerodynamic Confidence (3 Flight Hours/2-3 Ground) Intermediate Aerobatics Course (5 Flight Hours/3-4 Ground) Advanced Aerobatics Course (10 Flight Hours/6-8 Ground)
AIRPORT:
KOSH - Whitman Regional, Oshkosh, WI
INSTRUCTORS:
Jamie Pittman, CFI
NOTES:
Need a break from the boring? Come learn how to be a safer pilot while having a blast upside down. There are NO unusual attitudes here! Fly our airplanes or bring your own! We have aerobatic experience in a variety of aircraft, including a Pitts, Extra, Citabria, Decathlon, RV, and more.
HSRDLA LLC
Submitted by Anonymous on Fri, 2016-08-19 05:18

ADDRESS:
Kenosha Airport, Kenosha, WI, 53144, USA
CONTACT PERSON:
Hilel Swerdlin, Certified Flight Instructor
PHONE:
262-455-1159
EMAIL:
[email protected](link sends e-mail)
AIRCRAFT:
Super Decathlon
COURSES:
Tailwheel endorsement, CFI spin endorsement, Basic and Intermediate Aerobatics, Upset Training, Emergency Maneuvers, Commercial Maneuvers, Aeronautical Risk Management
INSTRUCTORS:
Hilel Swerdlin, CFI
 
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