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Advice needed - painter woes

S

sjhurlbut

Well Known Member
I'm supposed to pick up my RV6 after being in paint shop for 9 weeks. Painter calls me today and says original $13600 price is not accurate due to hours spent. Bill is estimated $27000-30000. I'm not kidding. I've painted 4 RVs and $13600 is the most I've spent never mind the price doubling.

Advice on getting the airplane back from any lawyers/builders?

I have original quote and it says all labour and materials are included - 24 hours of fiberglass work. It does say to be reassessed upon receipt of aircraft and throughout - I've had no discussion with painter about additional costs until now - pickup on Thurs.
 
In the auto repair industry, I think.... the law is no more than 10% over quote unless authorized by customer. time for a lawyer.
 
No professional would do work requiring the bill to be doubled without prior authorization. This guy is a crook. Call him today, tell him you will pick up your plane as scheduled, at the agreed upon price, or else you will see him in court.
 
Ransom

BobTurner said:
No professional would do work requiring the bill to be doubled without prior authorization. This guy is a crook. Call him today, tell him you will pick up your plane as scheduled, at the agreed upon price, or else you will see him in court.
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You're airplane is being held for ransom. Time to get the lawyers involved - ASAP.
 
Lawyers? That's for later. Get the police involved.

Take posession of your plane as soon as possible. Who knows what this crook will do to it once he figures out he's got a fight on his hands.
 
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http://www.amvic.org/consumer/repairing-a-vehicle-tips/

I'm neither a lawyer nor Canuck.

Is aircraft work regulated?

Is it regulated under the Auto repair laws?

Is painting a new plane a repair or just future corrosion control - what law applies?

I bet the applicable legal recission clock has a timeline past Oshkosh and is exactly why the plane is a target. 30th anniversary pressure on you to make the gig. Smells ripe for extortion.

Is the paintjob 2x the estimate in value? Likely not.

Do you owe even $100 let alone 10% over the estimate? If no, great, but forget Oshkosh if there is a legal timeline. Bet he can bait you into making a legal mistake.

I assume legal fees and delays would eat into you more than he.

To make Oshkosh that $13.6k billed at 2x becomes $20k to settle out of court before Oshkosh.

That is what I hope you can avoid. You'll have to bluff or convince him you can destroy his customer base, not just withold $. If you withold, there will be a process and timeline, IF the CPA/ Canadian repair laws even apply. The law, if it applies, does not likely say you simply give a check for the estimate + $100 or up to 10% over estimate and take the plane off his hands.

Show him you will be damaged if the plane can't make Oshkosh. Moreso than a car, there are 100 ways to impact the safety of an aircraft with 1 wrench and 5 seconds around an uncowled plane- don't get hurt, don't get scammed, but don't plan on being at KOSH 16 unless you will pay extortion. Once you pay, the deal is probably done.
 
And when you do go to pick it up, I would go over every control surface, control linkage and critical fasteners, bell cranks, hoses and fittings, oil sample, ect. If this gets ugly, I would hope that no one would (accidently) forget to tighten something.
 
Progress

The original quote was $13600. Contract says to be reassessed upon arrival and throughout. 3 days before pickup the discussion starts. I've got him done to $20000 but that is insane for a new aircraft paint job. Just figuring out how to break news to my wife.

I'll contact lawyer tomorrow (again). His break even price is $18000. Does that even sound reasonable?

I'm not at all worried about foul play. I'm even disassembling and assembly for this price by my choice.

Such a great transaction and 100% happy with everything until 3 days before pickup. Not to mention I dropped it off April 20th!
 
It must be a AMAZING paint job for that price! Is that the going price in Canada? If you get it out of hock please post pictures. I have to see it!:eek:
 
it wouldn't hurt if you mentioned the name, off-

...handedly. i don't live in canada but i would want to know the name of this place if he were in the USA.
 
Steve - from your posts here you've come across as an even-handed individual. I believe you will give the painter the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to make it right.

At a minimum, the painter's name should be made public so that others know to draft a contract that does not have loosey-goosey price escalation clauses as it sounds like yours currently has. You may not have a lot of bargaining power here in terms of legalities, thanks to that wiggle room on price in the contract, BUT you have HUGE bargaining power in terms of the one thing that counts the most in the business - goodwill. It's pretty amazing what an ad in the COPA Flight publication can do. If this is a Canadian paint shop, their business will be cut off at the knees. One has to be very careful walking the line between stating fact and setting oneself up for legal repercussions (a half hour with a lawyer should get you some good advice on this point). Draft the COPA ad, with legal advice, and tell the painter "this runs next issue if you fail to meet the terms of your original quote". If he threatens to put a lien on the aircraft, ask him how well he knows FEDERAL law on liens - it's different from provincial, and we have the good luck of being in a federally-regulated space. Worst case, call up Transport Canada and see if they would be willing to undertake a not-so-friendly inspection of the painter's operation to see if his lack of scruples stretches beyond the financial and into the realm of airworthiness. If the painter has an AMO, this can be a significant amount of leverage to apply.
 
sjhurlbut said:
The original quote was $13600. ...

<snip>

I'll contact lawyer tomorrow (again). His break even price is $18000. Does that even sound reasonable?
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No.

If you had a quote for $13.6K and you didn't change the design, colors, or scope of the job, *and* the aircraft was as advertised (e.g. no horribly botched fiberglass to repair that you hadn't mentioned), I'd expect to pay $13.6K.
 
With all due respect, even $13,600 is a ridiculous price unless it's an over the top job with crazy expensive paints. Stick to your guns on your deal, don't allow him to get away with extortion. I can't even imagine how his out of pocket expense could be $18K!
My paint job is close to over the top and I only paid $8500.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but -

Contract says to be reassessed upon arrival and throughout.

"Reassessed" says to me that the quote may be modified as the work goes along, but not retro-actively. :rolleyes:

Having price changes due to unknown and hidden items is reasonable, but you should be asked to approve quote changes.
 
If the painting was significantly complete 3 days ago, or at least that was first notice of increase, over 9 weeks of posession, I cry foul. He did not contract the supply cost or invest a labor overrun in just the last 3 days to the increase.

If the Canadian State or Federal auto repair estimates law does NOT apply, 3 days in 9 weeks is not going to fly well in court, as written, for a contract tort. But, the problem is no one wins cleanly in court.

Artists may not be or retain good cashflow and communications reps- did he really not see the claimed mark up or communicate until 3 days ago? That should cost him in consideration for his lack of both. $13.6k was good faith on your part, you were not signing up for a steal of a deal.

If the bid was $13.6 and he has $18k in it and needs to stay in painting, he should take a happy, pride-swallowing lesson and be thankful for any penny over about $15k, the 10% estimate law would be a great basis.

He owes you receipts of his costs and labor hours- who did what, how long, which dates- not just an itemized bill, if he's getting a penny past the estimate, I'd expect an opening of his books to you in painful detail for your consideration.

He did not hold up his end of the contract once exceeding the estimate, he failed to communicate in a timely manner.

This is just a version of the driveway scam, even if well intentioned.
 
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WOW.
Did you say F-18 Hornet? HUM----Seems to me when the plane was dropped off, and an inspection was made, a good painter would know if his quote was going to be good. If he's had to paint it 4 times because of his issues, then thas his overhead. Sorry-----I dont see this ending well.
Keep us posted
Tom
 
It does happen.

It won't make your situation better, but I had a fixed price contract with a famous engine consulting company for $150K - it was a government subcontract and there was no overrun room. It was a one-off job, but told them exactly what was needed, anyhow to do it and accepted the risks as a result. They were slow and way too thorough for what I had asked and in the end their manager sheepishly asked for more money. They had spent over $400k on it. Their project manager had totally let it get away, and although I felt bad, there was no room for compromise. To their credit the job was completed and parts delivered. Sometimes - yeah we can do that - or trying to impress - gets out of hand.

For a paint job where all is known, it seems over the top.

Best of luck in your negotiations.
 
Cant hold plane

I'm pretty sure it is illegal for the painter or a mechanic to hold your plane for payment. You pick up your plane and he bills you. Collecting from you is his problem. But since the plane is in his possession, you might need to take proof of ownership and the sheriff with you to get it back.
 
Just a data point, I painted my 7a, epoxy primer, DuPont Chromabase Base-clear, (upper end paint) three colors, 4 spray guns, mask, filters ect. $5K and that's with me making mistakes and do overs, could have done it for 3K if I knew what I was doing ;-)
 
bret said:
Just a data point, I painted my 7a, epoxy primer, DuPont Chromabase Base-clear, (upper end paint) three colors, 4 spray guns, mask, filters ect. $5K and that's with me making mistakes and do overs, could have done it for 3K if I knew what I was doing ;-)
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You are hired for my next plane :)
 
bret said:
Just a data point, I painted my 7a, epoxy primer, DuPont Chromabase Base-clear, (upper end paint) three colors, 4 spray guns, mask, filters ect. $5K and that's with me making mistakes and do overs, could have done it for 3K if I knew what I was doing ;-)
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When can I make an appointment?

Are you at Minden or Carson City? I'll buy the beer.

beericon.png
 
Bavafa said:
You are hired for my next plane :)
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Wait, that was just supply's there was a ton of labor, and a lot of complaints of paint fumes escaping the garage into the house. I can see 5K in labor on a (good) paint job. mine is just average......from 10 feet ;-)
 
I would be willing to bet that the guy pooched something on the paint job and had to buy more paint, strip it and redo it and he is trying to get the owner to eat the cost. It can happen easily enough. Wrong temps, mixed the paint improperly or whatever. Not the owner's fault.

Most Canadian provinces have a mechanic's lien which allow's the tradesman to keep the vehicle if the bill was not paid but this is a bit different. I hope the owner gets the truth at least and that they can work out something fair.
 
Possibly fair price

Plummit said:
Wow! That is one sharp looking paint job!

~Marc
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Indeed it is. There's a lot of work in that paint job, particularly if the composite parts were handed to the painter in a very raw condition (as they usually are).

The OP claims he settled this matter for $20,000 but I suspect that was CAN $ which is currently at 0.77 against the greenback. So the cost of the paint job might have been US $15400 which is probably fair for a paint job of that complexity. You'd be struggling to get a Piper Warrior repainted in one colour by a reputable aircraft painter for less than that price.

I notice that the OP has dropped out of this thread. Maybe he too feels the price is not that unreasonable now that he's seen the plane.
 
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So the guy did a very poor estimate? Technically speaking he is bound to it but Hats off to the OP for being a nice guy about it. It certainly looks amazing.
 
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