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What are your regrets on your Vans projects

W

workky

Member
Hey guys
Im torn
Im torn between building, buying, what to build, what to buy, etc.

Did you ever regret getting a vans kit, relizing later that you needed more space

A little about me
Self Employed
family of three girls and one man, me

My business takes me to surrounding states
love to travel by airplane, hate driving

Im not sure what i should be looking at as far as a kit planes
Want the RV-10, because i would like to think my girls would travel with me, but i don't know if that would the the reality.

Like to have a sportsman 2+2 because it s a high wing and utilizes a 4 banger

How many of you have bought with this mind set only to find out you were wrong. The mindset being passengers, you bought because you thought you would be taking more people

If i was going 2 person it would be a 14, but i really want the option of a 4 person plane. I love the RV-10, but how long will it be before vans may come out with a better 4 person plane? The 10 has been out now for quite some time.

Im just lost as to what to get. I joined the EAA and have looked for a very active chapter to join locally (metro Atlanta).

Would love to hear your thoughts on why you bought what you bought.

Thanks
 
The RV-10 is a good kit. I've seen it. If you go for the quick-build options, it's a relatively short time to be airborne, although not cheap.

I've got a Cessna 180 and that gives me four seats and reasonable performance. It does very well on short/soft fields and in the mountains. It carries a lot and still had good performance and reliable, steady handling. It's not as fast as a -10 but meets my needs. And best of all, it has a tailwheel.

I'm building an RV-3B simply for the fun of it. I don't need that capability at all. I chose this plane because of the support of VAF, plus a good kit company, plus this is a bit of an old school kit. It doesn't have pre-punched holes and some of the kit parts aren't so good.

Once in a while I wish I was building something else. About every six months, pretty much on schedule, I get the urge to scrap this and build a Rocket - I won't do that. I have no need of a Rocket but that doesn't prevent the urge. In my more analytical moments I realize that a Kolb Mk III Xtra would actually make quite a fun second airplane, if I wasn't spending so much time on the mighty Three.

I'm still enjoying building the RV-3B, warts and all. I do wish that I were better at it, though.

Dave
 
I built a -9A, which I started when I was unmarried. Now that I am married with a dog and may have a kid or two in the next few years, I would love to have a -10 for trips to visit family, etc. BUT, I was able to build a 9A for probably 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of what a -10 would cost me, not to mention higher operating costs. 90% of my flying will still probably be alone or with 1 passenger and just for fun, so it makes much more sense to own the 9A and rent a 4-seater the few times a year it would be needed, or maybe find a partnership in one at some point. I can rent a lot of time in a 182 or even a Cirrus for less than the cost difference in owning a -10.

All that being said, we all know owning ANY plane doesn't make much financial sense, so if I had the money to burn, yes, I would build or own a 10. Nothing beats flying your own airplane. I even keep my eyes out for good deals on a -10 tail kit.

Chris
 
What do you fly now?
Do the girls fly with you now?
What is your flying background/experience?
What is your timeline for having a new plane to fly?

Difficult to offer input without knowing something about your experience and expectations.

Yes, making these decisions can be daunting and we have seen this question many time before. Our customary suggestion is to tightly define your mission profile as much as possible, only then can you narrow your choices to a manageable number.

Otherwise, the question becomes....should I buy a Ford or Chevy? :)
 
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wait for it.....

official greeter is comin'!

you say 3 girls, do you mean one woman and 2 girls?
either way, you're screwed! ;-)

did you factor into this the $187,382 you are supposed to be saving for their college education? ( or were you planning to send more than one!??!)

.....not to rain on your VFR day, just sayin'.....every hour you spend thinkin' about or building a plane is an hour missed with family, even if they are bucking rivets with you, they may want to be somewhere else.

I did not build, as I did not have the magic triad; spare time, spare room, spare money.......all at the same time, for the average 7.2 years that people take to build a SIMPLE kitplane like the prepunched RV's.

...ok, gettin' off the soapbox now!

have fun flying, building, or whatever you end up with!
 
My only regrets are that I didn't do this 10 or 15 years ago. I ended up building a 9 because I found a good deal on a pre-owned kit. The 10 was too expensive for me and I'm not too interested in aerobatics right now so the 9 it is!!
 
My Regrets on my Van's Aircraft Project

My regret is NOT using the largest engine cubic inches recommended by Van's Aircraft for the airframe. Except for the RV-12, every RV that is currently available that I build will have a Constant Speed prop.
 
I started on the RV-9A as my kids were getting out of the house and through college. The two seats are fine for my wife and I to travel around. It would be nice occasionally to have an extra seat (or two), but that's not the mission. Back in the late 80's we had a Rockwell Commander 114, and we rarely put 4 people in the airplane. Mostly 1 or 2, sometimes 3.
If Van's made a 3 seater, I might consider it. It is nice to be able to take someone along with the two of us.
The RV-10 is terrific, but for me it would be overkill for my mission and budget. Having 3 kids, it wouldn't have been big enough even when they were younger.
Be realistic with your mission and make your choice. I'm very happy with my -9A. Today if I was building, I would seriously consider the -14. Much quicker to build than the -9 or -10.
 
Whatever you decide, you wont be sorry! If you get a two seater, it will give you the opportunity for one on one time with each of your special girls! :D
 
I built a 7a and absolutely no regrets at all! For me it's perfect in every aspect. That said, I have flown a 10 and fell in love with it. There is no logical reason for me to own one but if anyone has an award winning 10 and wants to trade for an award winning 7' just saying! 7s are a blast to fly but 10s are the Cadillac.
 
I went through this exact same decision-making process myself about 8 months ago.
My difference is that our only child started college last fall, so the build time wouldn't take away from family time.

For me, the 'build' decision was easy: I had bought the plans for an RV-4 30 years ago, but never got around to building due to family time demands.

Once my daughter had grown, it was time to begin construction; but now WHICH RV? 30 years ago it was easy: either a -3 or a -4, but today VAN's has MANY choices. I waffled between the -14 and the -10 and ultimately chose the latter. If I'm going to all the trouble to build, I want the Ultimate RV!

Regrets? NONE!

There have been a few frustrating build days, but the satisfaction that comes from finishing a flight component far outweighs them.

Ask me about regrets again when I get to the fiberglass canopy work... :mad::eek::cool:
 
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Welcome!

Being torn is a normal part of the process, most of us have been there. I started doing research towards building an -8, as I love working with my hands, like using my tail wheel skills, and was used to putting both elbows on the canopy rail when on autopilot. Four years later I bought my -6a, right enough plane at the right price at the right time.

I regret not having looked to buy the right enough solution earlier. My family is similar to yours, the only four seat flying I have done since my purchase has been instruction, my family flies with me one at a time and that works just fine.

I have done a few upgrades to my plane, and have a few more to go, which has satisfied my build itch. I regret that I can't stop flying enough to have the down time required to get the big projects done, money spent on hardware gathering dust.

Hope that helps. :D
 
If you can afford it..

..the 10 is a great airplane. This is why I'm building one. My only regret is that it's taking so long to build. This is time I could have been flying, instead of building. However, the build process, along with being a major PTIA at times, brings a great sense of accomplishment too. My wife was pregnant when we embarked upon building the 10. Now my kids are 2 and 5. I'm probably looking at another 3-4 years before I'm flying. Then again, my 10 is a complete slow build and I have tried along the way to be an attentive dad and spouse, while working full time and still maintaining some semblance of a social life. It's a very difficult balance to achieve. I think if I had to do this again as a single parent, with 3 daughters, like you, the likelihood of success (i.e. completing the build) would be very low indeed. Since flying 10s cost about the same as building one, you should consider buying one, if you've got the bucks. If you are trying to build because you barely meet the financial criteria needed to own a 10, then you should probably consider buying an older, certified plane to fly your kids around in, like a Cherokee. They can be had for less than the price of a new engine for the 10. A previous poster mentioned college and other costs. In one way, they are right; kids are expensive. Then again, those same kids can also pay their way, or, god forbid, not attend college until they have a plan that requires it.. Only you and your daughters can decide what's best for you. Time and money are the biggest considerations, so make sure you can afford both.
 
Wait......does "three girls" mean two daughters and a wife, or three daughters?

If 3 daughters, buy a 182 and take up woodworking or restore an old car.

As to regrets: I regret not finishing the RV-6 I started in 1996 (as well as the circumstances that caused me to abandon it). I also regret not buying an RV-10 kit as soon as the QB became available. I regret not getting the QB wings on my RV-8. And I regret not giving the RV-14 a serious look before writing any checks.

The common theme in my list of regrets is, I should've spent more. I have more money than time. YMMV.
 
I don't know anything about the Sportsman 2+2 kit. I built a 6A and love it. The Sportsman is interesting in that it can be can be converted from tri gear to tail wheel to amphibian if I'm not mistaken. Don't know if it's a true 4 place or how well supported it is. I don't see many around. John
 
MikeyDale said:
Whatever you decide, you wont be sorry! If you get a two seater, it will give you the opportunity for one on one time with each of your special girls! :D
Click to expand...

This is great advise. The only exception is if you need to get everyone in the same place at once. That probably happens pretty rarely, so just rent a cessna on those occasions.
 
jpowell13 said:
I don't know anything about the Sportsman 2+2 kit. I built a 6A and love it. The Sportsman is interesting in that it can be can be converted from tri gear to tail wheel to amphibian if I'm not mistaken. Don't know if it's a true 4 place or how well supported it is. I don't see many around. John
Click to expand...

This post caught my eye... I started off lusting after an RV8A - yeah, my hangar-mate brought his home after purchasing it, my wife sat in the back seat and I thought I was golden. Then I showed her the baggage areas and that idea went down in flames.

Fast forward a bit and we're now slow-building a Glasair Sportsman 2+2. We're building it as a 2-seater, however we have the materials to add the back seat later if we so choose. The airplane is a true 4-seater when the rear-facing back seats are installed; the previous forward-facing rear seats were restricted to use by fairly small people.

The RV10 is a great airframe, fast, capable of hauling a lot, and in comfort. But it does require a big 6-cylinder engine which puts it out of the budget range for some folks. The Sportsman gets the job done with a 4-cylinder engine, and in fact, the most popular engine in the Sportsman is the one we now see being introduced in the RV14, the IO-390. I suspect it's the experience in the Sportsman that gave Van the confidence to design the RV14 around this powerplant.

The Sportsman is the only aircraft in its category that is available through a Two Weeks to Taxi program; Glasair was the first to bring this type of customer build-assistance program to market; others have since copied it. For a base price of $200K you can have your airplane ready to taxi in two weeks. This gives one the ability to trade cash for build time.

To answer the question around support, yes the design is well supported, and it continues to evolve. Over the past few years we've seen several items added to the option list. To name a few:
- rear-facing back seat
- belly-mount cargo pod
- cub-style "outback" landing gear for real off-airport adventures
- all-carbon fuselage in lieu of fiberglass; the carbon gets you about 150lbs extra useful load
- turbo-diesel engine
- airframe parachute system

Again, our Sportsman is a slow-build, and I would say that Glasair's idea of a kit-built airplane is different from Vans in that Glasair is not pouring huge bucks into making the kit go together faster or more easily - all that innovation and investment is going into refining the Two Weeks to Taxi program, which is consistently well-received by customers.

The Sportsman handles well, hauls a lot, and offers tremendous mission flexibility, from a reasonably "go fast" tricycle-gear cruiser to a "go-slow" back-country STOL machine, to an amphibious float plane, to any kind of taildragger you like, with big Bushwheels or 6" wheels in fancy wheel pants. The airframe is also very durable with a low number of service bulletins arising as a result of accumulation of hours/cycles on the airframe. The one thing nobody likes to talk about, but which is important to me, is the crashworthiness of the airframe, should it ever come to that. In the case of the Sportsman, it does an excellent job of protecting the occupants, thanks to its rugged 4130 steel tube primary fuselage structure that carries flying and landing loads.

Do I regret building a Sportsman rather than buying a flying RV8A? No, not really. I have an older, economical homebuilt airplane that allows me to continue to fly while I build (because I just HAVE to fly!). Having one flying airplane takes the pressure off and allows me to take my time and not let the airplane build project totally dominate our family life. Both my wife and I are very much looking forward to using this Sportsman as our retirement get-away machine, whenever retirement happens.

If you have questions, fire away. Likely best by PM so as not to clutter up this thread with non-RV conversation.
 
Here is my journey YMMV. Built #3 F1Rocket. Liked it, pretty but truth is not so fast. Just goes more quickly from one corner of the envelope to the other than a 4 cylinder. Sinks like a man-hole cover. Wives (mine at least) don't care for tandem seating, lonely back there & scary.

Have a 76 V35B for family stuff, tips, D'Shannon engine, all the Garmin bits. It excels at 1000 nm trips at 180 true with reserves. Cheaper than building a 10. Family adores it. Built like an M1 Abrams tank. Flys beautifully. Oh BTW a "friend" puts lead shot way up front for W&B. Pretty.

Building a Glasair III RG twin turbo for Reno & post children travel. Cruise at 300 knots true side by side. Not so scary for SO. That path isn't for everyone.

Conclusion: The menu is vast but define your needs and the mission will follow. Don't forget to insert passion and be brutally honest about your mechanical capabilities. It's a marathon to build an airplane and the ugly truth is not much fun the last 20%. If you pull it off you will want to do it again. That feeling at OSH is like BUTTER. I like all the machines you all build/restore, just don't love 'em enough to build or own all of them.

Go build something!

Best
Howard
 
I'm a bit biased, as I have a RV-10.

I can't tell you how many people with 2 seaters that I've talked to, wished that they had 4.

I can tell you that I seldom file with four people on board. I do however fly with three people, a dog, and plenty of luggage. I've also do two people and two dogs.

With a good electronic ignition and flying LOP, you can get the flow fuel pretty reasonable. I can get the same fuel flow that I used to get on my Cherokee 180 in my RV-10 while going 40kts faster.

YellowJacket RV9 said:
BUT, I was able to build a 9A for probably 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of what a -10 would cost me, not to mention higher operating costs. Chris
Click to expand...
I don't think your understanding is accurate. 70-90% is more accurate. It really depends on the engine and panel choices.
 
1.) After unwrapping the fuselage kit and looking at the associated hardware bag I instantly regretted not going with a quick-build fuselage! :D The wing kit parts count was smaller and consisted of a lot of same/similar parts and repetitive work so I think slow build was right choice on that for me. It sure would have been a morale boost though to throw a pillow in the quick-build fuselage and start making airplanes noises on day 1 ! :cool:

2.) Even with a family of 4 + dogs I do not regret not getting the 10. Small airplane travel is just not practical even in a 10 there is no way we are fitting all our stuff and our German Shepherd and going on a family trip all while at the mercy of weather! That is what a minivan is for! lol The RV is just a TOY. Plus like a previous poster alluded to, it typically results in a lot more engaging experience in a two seater than it would be for RV-10 passengers sitting in the back.

3.) The notion that you should always do a quick build or just buy a flying plane if you have a fmaily is not necessarily the best advice. I have not sacrificed much family time at all, I simply replaced prior non productive time (gaming, netflix, staring at a computer screen) with a daily commitment to spend a hour or two in the shop, typically when kids are sleeping anyways. So instead of using a entire day or weekend to build, try breaking it up and spend much smaller amounts of time every day(or close to it) doing "something". Building a prepunched RV in my opinion only requires two thing strong desire and some money. If you have these, the rest will follow...
 
Well you need to take a look at your mission and budget and decide first, is a 4-place what you really need and what you can afford--be brutally honest with yourself and try an take as much emotion out of the analysis as you can.

Once you've done that you've got a number options: build, buy a flying E-AB, or buy a used standard certified aircraft.

Building is time intensive, a serious commitment on your and your family's part, and is not necessarily cheap especially in the 4-place market. Building is only less expensive when comparing new E-AB aircraft vs. new factory built. Otherwise if you stick to comparing performance, a nice used standard certificated aircraft with updated avionics can be significantly cheaper (acquisition cost) than a recently built E-AB aircraft. Operating costs for a typically 4-place standard certificated airplane in many cases is higher than E-AB, but there's a number of things as an owner you can do to lower that cost closer to the E-AB world.

Bottom line is if you really just want to fly, buy an already built airplane regardless of certification. If you want to build, build because you because you want to experience that process and think you'd enjoy the journey. Don't build as some shortcut means to an end.
 
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I go back and forth about not getting the quickbuild fuselage--progress really slowed down shortly after that kit arrived because we suddenly got a baby. I look at how little I've gotten done in a year and I really wish I'd gone QB so I could have moved on to wiring and other systems stuff (i.e. the fun part).

And then I look at the airplane savings account, and see the extra numbers in there, and I think "hey, but this way I can afford an engine now!"

And then I get depressed looking at how much more drill/dimple/deburr/prime there is left to do, and I wish I'd gone QB again...


If there were an aerobatic 2+2 out there with comparable performance (or a three-seat RV-14+ option) I'd have gone that way. I didn't want to give up aerobatic performance and handling for the extra payload since that would be most of my flying. Maybe in the future there will be an opportunity to buy into a partnership on a -10 or a Velocity or something, but I need to finsh the -7 first.
 
rleffler said:
I don't think your understanding is accurate. 70-90% is more accurate. It really depends on the engine and panel choices.
Click to expand...

Might have been a bit of a stretch, but my 9A came in around ~$60k, where I doubt there have been many -10's built for under $100k, and most much more. In addition, the -10 has a bit different mission, and so I would most likely want to equip it for IFR, autopilot, etc (my choices though, I know).

For most people considering a 10, I doubt the cost is as big a factor as it was for me, and I hope to build one someday, too - but I do like to remind people that it certainly is possible to get into a great airplane for less than the cost of some new SUV's. But not really the point of this thread so I apologize.

Chris
 
Regrets?? Not many.

Several of my mistakes have been buying stuff too early, and being stuck with pink elephants when technology (or my preferences) changed.
 
I chose the -9 just as the -10 was coming out. I had a wife and 2 little kids and really wanted to be able to take them all at the same time. Once I saw the price difference, which (if using Van's calculator today) for a -10 is approximately 1.8-2x that of a -9, my decision was easy. There's no way I could have justified spending $111-124K on a toy.

That said, a few things I learned:
1. The time to build is when the kids are in bed. It helps if they have 7:30 bedtimes! :D Didn't miss much time with them that way!
2. Necessary to have wife on board--make sure some of those evenings are for her too.
3. Four seats would be great, but there are very few times where we would have taken trips as a family anyway to be quite honest. The Wx is just too unpredictable, especially if you are VFR only, so unless everyone's schedule is very flexible, the extra seats wouldn't be as handy as their initial and operating cost would require. To each their own, though.
4. Having just one at a time, even though all 3 of my girls like to fly, makes for great "dates."
5. Driving cars that are, on average, 10 years old, makes a 2-seater RV really doable financially.
6. You have to REALLY want to build. If you do, you will find the time to build and have a family and will be able to slowly save up money along the way to be able to afford it. If you don't really want it, probably better to buy something that flies right away.
7. To keep the budget, both $ and time, in check, you may need to quit flying for a few years. Then get current again as you get closer to completion. Just a sacrifice you may have to make. I made it and can definitely say it was worth it.

Just my experience(s). Good luck.
 
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alpinelakespilot2000 said:
To keep the budget, both $ and time, in check, you may need to quit flying for a few years. Then get current again as you get closer to completion.
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This has been the toughest thing for me to sacrifice, but I agree it's necessary.

This should be a good indicator as to whether you're a builder or buyer. If you can't go without flying for several years, then you should probably buy, as there aren't too many people that have the time and money to build and fly at the same time.
 
My Choice

I built an RV8 slow build kit. I plan on doing it again and would still go slow build. My reasoning is that I really enjoy the process and working with my hands. If you are a hands on kind of guy I would recommend it. Of course you must take all you other constraints into account as well. And I note you have three daughters...my experience is the women make the best riveters...you can buck all day long. I also flew the entire time I was building, just have to have your priorities.

remember all planes are a compromise so define you mission and fit the plane to it.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
***
5. Driving cars that are, on average, 10 years old, makes a 2-seater RV really doable financially.
6. You have to REALLY want to build. If you do, you will find the time to build and have a family and will be able to slowly save up money along the way to be able to afford it. If you don't really want it, probably better to buy something that flies right away.
***
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I think the above is particularly terrific advice. I'm a firm believer in cheap cars. And as a long (REALLY long) time Zenith 801 builder, I think there's a real difference between the goals of building -- where it's mostly about the journey, not the destination -- and flying.

I had a share in a Sportsman 2+2, which we flew in nosewheel and then in a tailwheel configuration, and really liked it. Although hardly cheap, it's a very, very well-thought-out machine, with a huge range of options and capabilities. Their TWTT program sort of bridges the gap between the building and flying distinction noted above. Be sure to have the spouse/family try out the rearward-facing seat option before deciding; I think it's cool and well-done, but my plane partner was less enthusiastic. Certainly it's a bit less conventional than the RV-10 arrangement.

I have basically no experience with the RV-10 other than drooling around them and thinking they're really cool.
 
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