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Fun times at OSH arrival

Dugaru

Well Known Member
Been listening to the LiveATC feed and watching Flightradar24. They're basically "trickle flowing" them in to Runway 9 with an occasional right turn to 36. ATC folks doing terrific and patient work with occasionally highly disgruntled pilots who are ignoring the instruction not to get on the radio....

Interesting to click on a given aircraft on FlightRadar24 and see that it's been around the lake 15 times...

Be safe out there!
 
Gaggle doesn?t touch what I saw.

I missed OSH this year and am sort of relieved from watching the goat rope this afternoon. Saw this on the feed while listening to Fisk and Towers on the laptop. I feel for this poor RV-8. 2 hours looking for a hole. Not unusual today from the looks of it. For a few hours, only 1 of 3 showing at Fisk made it in with others forced back to Ripon. Fly safe everyone!

28lgkzn.jpg


Been listening to the LiveATC feed and watching Flightradar24. They're basically "trickle flowing" them in to Runway 9 with an occasional right turn to 36. ATC folks doing terrific and patient work with occasionally highly disgruntled pilots who are ignoring the instruction not to get on the radio....

Interesting to click on a given aircraft on FlightRadar24 and see that it's been around the lake 15 times...

Be safe out there!
 
Due to a number of other destinations on our trip we drove to OSH this year. On the drive up today we spent time at Ripon, Fisk, and watching arrivals to RWY 9. We arrived at Ripon about 1-2 hours after weather went from IFR to "marginal VFR" and was pretty much VFR with rapidly improving conditions.

From the ground, Ripon looked like an absolute madhouse. Airplanes coming from every direction, breaking into the "conga line" from both sides, speeds varying, etc etc. Lots of "last second" break-offs. At one point EVERY aircraft turned left - clearly instructed to do so by controllers at Fisk.

At Fisk, listening and watching, the madness was even more impressive - controllers were asking for "1 mile" spacing and it looked to me like "1/4 mile" spacing at best. Probably 70% of aircraft arriving at/approach Fisk were turned back to rejoin the line - this didn't seem to be helping as more aircraft were clearly arriving at Ripon by the minute. Even at Fisk, the adherence to flying "over the tracks" was amazingly inconsistent. I was also surprised how many singles, including RV's, were flying the "high route" given the performance capabilities, but they weren't getting any special treatment.

Watching arrivals at RWY 9 things were much better, although I saw several very closely spaced arrivals with "go around" instructions - in one case a Malibu was flying higher and faster than another aircraft on final and I don't think the pilot had any clue there was another aircraft below/ahead.

Quite a spectacle and a good learning experience in how to prepare when I fly to OSH.
 
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One of my buddies goes to the fisk trailer every year and pitches a chair right by the ATC guys. He said it's a lot of fun to sit and watch them and the traffic.
 
After holding for more than an hour 5-miles south of RIPON, I diverted to KUNU Dodge County and took an UBER to OSH.

2018-07-22_15.55.39.png


I did not like what I was seeing on Stratus Foreflight ADS-B traffic in.

2018-07-22_15.53.00.jpg


I was only burning 5.5 gallons / hours but did not like that ATC wanted 1-mile spacing and then 2-mile spacing before going back to 1-mile spacing.

This is my 19th trip in my RV to OSH and it is by far the WORST experience that I have ever had flying to AirVenture.
 
I missed OSH this year and am sort of relieved from watching the goat rope this afternoon. Saw this on the feed while listening to Fisk and Towers on the laptop. I feel for this poor RV-8. 2 hours looking for a hole. Not unusual today from the looks of it. For a few hours, only 1 of 3 showing at Fisk made it in with others forced back to Ripon. Fly safe everyone!

28lgkzn.jpg

I was this poor RV-8 guy. Very frustrating arrival experience that began Saturday afternoon when they closed the airport for arrivals at 6:30 instead of 8:00 to allow 140 Bonanzas to arrive. I was 10 miles from Ripon when that happened and had to divert to Appleton. Today started off well enough. When the weather went to marginal VFR at about 11:30 I launched with others from Appleton and I almost got right in. Shut off arrivals just as I was in line at Ripon again and went to holding. It then became a real zoo on the Fisk arrival with guys not following the NOTAM and cutting people out of the flow. It became a game of chicken in some cases; who was going to turn out and give up first. I know the ATC guys were working hard but I was not impressed. Five guys converging ar Ripon and no one turning until someone had to. ATC would tell everyone to break off and hold, and 80% did so. The ones that pressed on were then getting in. I tried for over five hours to get in and had to refuel again at Appleton. The guys who declared minimum fuel to ATC were given priority instead of being told to divert. Finally made it in just before the field closed again for the day. Weather was great this afternoon but what a circus. Not sure I?ll do it again. I?ve flown in a couple of times before and never seen it like today.
 
We tried - and failed - twice to get in today. Spent the night in Watertown, headed north as soon as the weather lifted. Thought we might be ahead of the arrival crush...yeah, no. On our first try we spent about an hour in the Ripon area. Fisk controller were spinning the majority of aircraft out due to improper spacing, which meant there was a steady stream if traffic coming south and then turning back towards Ripon. Good luck trying to figure out how to either fit into that line, or get in the back.

The one time we did get slightly past Ripon, aircraft were all over the place. Hardly anyone was actually over the tracks, and the resulting lateral spacing seemed to really kind of enable the gaggling. I bailed out to the left after being unable to keep spacing on the plane in front of me, while there was also another plane sidling up 500' off my right wing.

Then they shut arrivals down and we started holding around Green Lake. At first, this seemed like it might be great - establish and maintain good spacing on the aircraft in front of us, and when they started clearing the hold, we'd just get on the tracks and go.

Except by the third lap or so, there was nothing resembling a unified hold. Some aircraft were following the lake shore. Others were flying what seemed like 5nm circles vaguely centered on the lake. Eventually I realized that whenever they did release people from holding, we'd just end up with the exact same gaggle activity as before. So we headed back to Watertown, got lunch and some gas, and tried again a couple hours later.

Thought maybe it'd slow down later in the evening, but nope, it seemed actually worse than the first time. Again we made a couple of bids to join the conga line, but every time I'd end up slow, or way too close to someone, or with another aircraft abreast of me, so eventually we gave up again.

It saddness me a bit to think that the most effective technique for getting in probably would have been to stop trying to get good spacing, or stay over the tracks, and just gaggle my way to Fisk and hope that I'd win the lottery up there.

We're going to try to be at Ripon at 7 AM sharp tomorrow morning. If that doesn't work out, I guess we'll just camp at Fond Du Lac. GAC is reporting "close to full," so if we're not in early we'll likely be hosed.

Also, I should just open a fuel account at RYV. Was slightly amusing having their line guys fuel me three times in one day...
 
Sunday evening we saw a V tail Bonanza ordered to go around as he almost landed on a Cessna. So the guy powered up, starts to climb, flies over the Cessna and lands in front of him. I'm guessing he didn't understand the term "Go around".
 
My 5 year old son and I tried once, waited a few hours at Portage listening to LiveATC,and then bailed to a free hotel in Madison for the night. We’re saddling up soon for another try.
 
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Yesterday at OSH

I figured there would be some good stories here after listening to all that excitement yesterday evening.

I also was amazed how many aircraft capable of doing 90 knots (or much less) were at the higher altitude. Didn't seem to help them much.

I propose that henceforth, this event should go down in aviation lore as:

"The 2018 Fiske Furball"

:)
 
Just heard:

"Low fuel guy land now land now land now watch out for those P51 mustangs ... P51's turn south, turn south, turn south now now!"

Yikes! Don't be the "low fuel guy".
 
Parking is full already??

The EAA parking status page says:
The General Aviation Parking Area is now closed to all aircraft types.

But there are still tons of aircraft inbound... hard to believe they are all going to camping? Does anyone know if Vintage Aircraft Parking is a subset of General Aviation Parking?
 
Vintage is considered show plane parking and is still open. But yeah, man this year was NUTS. 2h holding last night and 2h this morning before we got in.

Have to say that Ripon brings out the most frustrating and uncontrolled parts of flying. Reminds me too much of highway driving.

I need a beer already... Oh wait, I get one tonight! :D See some of you tonight to check out the Beer Fairy's tasty brews.
 
OSH arrival

Looks like for me heading back home instead of trying to get in wasn't to bad of a decision.
I'll enjoy all the stories on VAF .
 
Sunday evening we saw a V tail Bonanza ordered to go around as he almost landed on a Cessna. So the guy powered up, starts to climb, flies over the Cessna and lands in front of him. I'm guessing he didn't understand the term "Go around".

Crazy this year. Didn?t see it but was listening on the scanner. This was the guy that got handed over to ground and given the phone # for ?possible pilot deviation?? First I?ve heard that at OsH.

Texan mass arrival one almost ground looped. Touched down on 36L. Rolled out on 36R...
 
I listened yesterday afternoon (can't be there this year :( ) and watched flightradar24...woooooeeeeee. That was some big hairball.

I did notice, though, the surprising number of planes "cutting in" well after Ripon...even just seeing the fraction shown by fr24 because they had ADS-B, seemed like a lot of people just didn't feel like going all the way back to the start, and just cut in line. Heard some PO'd pilots calling them out on it, too.

I've only been a couple of times, but I was surprised at how many planes couldn't seem to maintain 90 knots.
 
This was only ny second time flying into oshkosh and yesterday was a train wreck. Ive ridden in with a friend 4 other times and this is the worst i have seen it. We got sent out to the left 3 or 4 times by fiske. We did the 2300 ft 135 knot approach because the lower approach was a death trap. I feel like not a single person read the notam. I would get good spacing, almost get to fiske then some moron out of nowhere would cut in or pass me a mile off to the side of the train tracks and cause everyone to be sent off. We got lucky we landed a little after 6 yesterday. One friend had to go back 6 times, one 8 times and one 12 times. Between the bad piloting and the controllers not handling it very well it was a nightmare. Instead of the controllers letting certain planes in they would just make everybody leave and rejoin which just kept compounding.
 
The traffic maps and stories on this thread are exactly why I'm never flying my plane to Oshkosh. I worked too long and hard on it to risk it in that circus. And for what? It's not a show plane so it would be totally ignored...and get off my lawn! :p
 
OSH hornets nest

My first flight into OSH - what an interesting spectacle, I?m surprised there were no mid airs.
So now that we have ADSB don?t people realise that others can see & record what you do ? Whenever we click on an aircraft in FLT rdr24 we can see you & all of the tracking you did & it wasn?t pretty :eek:
The selfish, downright dangerous & stupid ones were obvious. I know the weather caused pent up demand for arrivals however that does not excuse the behaviour of many people.

I feel this is a watershed moment for the Oshkosh event & wonder what the FEDs must be thinking. Those who did obviously dangerous things have, IMO, just done a lot of damage to our industry & the good relationships that many people have strived to achieve with the regulators - hang your heads in shame.
 
Scott Thompson N9324Z

I don?t know Scott, but my heart goes out to him. Look at Scott?s attempt to enter KOSH from Appleton on FlightRadar24.com. He flew, according to this report, almost 5 hours in the hold and attempting to enter and ended up back in Appleton. I didn?t count he circuits, but it looks like about 15+ attempts to come up the tracks and was sent out. I just randomly tapped on his plane yesterday afternoon on my iPad to see the hold and I couldn?t believe what I saw.

Scott (if you are on here), I saw that you finally made it in later. I would have been out of my mind after an hour, but you kept on it for 5 hours. Glad you stayed safe.
 
I was this poor RV-8 guy. Very frustrating arrival experience that began Saturday afternoon when they closed the airport for arrivals at 6:30 instead of 8:00 to allow 140 Bonanzas to arrive. I was 10 miles from Ripon when that happened and had to divert to Appleton. Today started off well enough. When the weather went to marginal VFR at about 11:30 I launched with others from Appleton and I almost got right in. Shut off arrivals just as I was in line at Ripon again and went to holding. It then became a real zoo on the Fisk arrival with guys not following the NOTAM and cutting people out of the flow. It became a game of chicken in some cases; who was going to turn out and give up first. I know the ATC guys were working hard but I was not impressed. Five guys converging ar Ripon and no one turning until someone had to. ATC would tell everyone to break off and hold, and 80% did so. The ones that pressed on were then getting in. I tried for over five hours to get in and had to refuel again at Appleton. The guys who declared minimum fuel to ATC were given priority instead of being told to divert. Finally made it in just before the field closed again for the day. Weather was great this afternoon but what a circus. Not sure I?ll do it again. I?ve flown in a couple of times before and never seen it like today.

Scott, post a picture of your entire flight! That picture was only about half of it I think. Sorry I didn?t read the whole thread before I posted my first post.
 
Same thing Sunday last year, ifr, marginal vfr, b2osh shutdown then field opens. Bam total insanity. This is part 2. I could see this about to happen again.

I’ll fly the new airplane in next year on Thursday prior to the show. Beats dying.
 
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The traffic maps and stories on this thread are exactly why I'm never flying my plane to Oshkosh. I worked too long and hard on it to risk it in that circus. And for what? It's not a show plane so it would be totally ignored...and get off my lawn! :p

It is normally not this much of a mess. The weather this year helped to create a perfect storm no pun intended.

Also the tower was refusing overhead breaks for the mass arrivals Sunday. The overhead has proven to be the best way to land a ton of planes so it left me bewildered on why they were refusing them.
 
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19th time Flying to AirVenture

This is the 19th AirVenture that I have flown my RV to. IF I experience another year like this one, I will no longer fly my RV to AirVenture.

I put 2.6 hours on my hobbs meter going from KUNU to KOSH. It should not take 2.6 hours to fly from 41-nautical miles even at 90 kts NOTAM arrival.

Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

My APRS track shows 2.2-hours. The other 0.4 hours on the hobbs must be taxi time as there was a long wait sitting waiting for ATC to let us cross RWY 27.

Here is what the ground track looked like on aprs.fi.

Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.33.22_PM.png


You may still be able to see my track on AirPRS.com if the site has not gone dark.

This is what the AirPRS track looks like:
Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.32.21_PM.png


This is what traffic looked like toward the end of the hold that started at 7:50 AM.

Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.53.03_PM.png


I did report my negative arrival experience to an EAA Board Member and promised to follow up with an email. I have a friend that is working ATC here and plan to inquire what his understanding is of all the bad experiences being reported this year.

One BIG mess up today was the B1 morning fly by. They closed the airport to arrives during the schedule B1 time slot. It did not show on time. When it showed up almost one hour later, they closed the airport. This screw up is why I think I flew so long in a holding pattern. In my opinion, when the schedule time was missed, another one should not have been given.

I may be the only one that does not mind holding for the rescheduled mass arrivals but not for my tax dollars being wasted to make noise and causing me to spend more money to fly a holding pattern.
 
The traffic maps and stories on this thread are exactly why I'm never flying my plane to Oshkosh. I worked too long and hard on it to risk it in that circus. And for what? It's not a show plane so it would be totally ignored...and get off my lawn! :p

+1

The last time I flew into OSH during Airventure in my-7A was 7 years ago. Been there , done that. Can't think of a good reason to do it again. Typically, I land and park at an airport in Wisconsin and complete the trip in a rental car. Works better for me.
 
I believe a huge part is pilots not reading or thinking the NOTAM does not apply to them.

Also as more and more controllers hit mandatory retirement the generation taking over does not want to work the problem they try to ignore it or pass the buck. Listing to the arrivals that was obvious. They have no idea how to work the problem so turn everyone left to start over. But that just compounded the problem.
 
the generation taking over does not want to work the problem they try to ignore it or pass the buck. Listing to the arrivals that was obvious. They have no idea how to work the problem so turn everyone left to start over. But that just compounded the problem.

"Must be the young'uns fault"... Seriously, that's rich...
 
I know folks in ATC and they could tell you story after story after endless story of how many (not all) of the younger controllers do not work the problem but default to the easy out which usually does not solve the problem. However I layed the lions share of the blame squarely on the pilots.
 
The Fisk controller this morning was amazing. Same **** yesterday but he had everyone hold at green lake do not pass ripon until they cleaned out rush lake. Once rush was clean they open ripon to Fisk. When rush lake filled back up they closed ripon had people hold at green lake. They did for hours and it worked well except the yo-yos that cut in, came in when closed, and the ones that don?t know how to hold.
 
Stats

It would be interesting to see and compare the stats on number of landings.
 
I know folks in ATC and they could tell you story after story after endless story of how many (not all) of the younger controllers do not work the problem but default to the easy out which usually does not solve the problem. However I layed the lions share of the blame squarely on the pilots.

And I could tell you story after story about how older engineers and managers are stubborn and stuck in old ways of thinking. But I wouldn't ascribe that to an entire generation because that's simplistic scapegoating. I blame it squarely on people's laziness...
 
First time flying in to OSH this year. Flew from the Atlanta area with a neighbor pilot and made two fuel stops. Got to Ripon area as the weather improved to find Green Lake over saturated. Tried a few times to enter the gaggle but I had neither the patience nor the tolerance for what I saw going on at the lake. Finally made the decision to divert to ATW.

Tied down for the night, but went back the next morning with my son. One turn around Green Lake, one breakout and reenter at Ripon and then in to the yellow dot at 36L. 2300? and 135 kts was a lot easier and provided more energy for breakout options. Good learning experience for both of us and really enjoyed watching him fly the new plane.
 
Absolutely no offense meant, but that?s part of the problem. 2300/135 is for planes who CANNOT maintain 1800/90. NOT because it is more convenient.

Weren?t the Bonanzas? mass arrival rescheduled to Sunday evening also?

The storms, the B1, ATC who just kept telling everyone to go away (seriously, how hard is it to selectively say ?you come in, you next 5 next to him you lose go away? rather than telling all 30+ in line from Ripon to go away)... this was a complete mess. Been flying here 8 years, and I don?t know how you improve the process of ensuring people read AND FOLLOW the NOTAM, not just the convenient parts. But this was the first year that I actually saw what I would consider airborne road rage. People coming up the conga line KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGLY misspaced or not in line, thinking ATC will call out the other guy and let them in, or that the breakout and hold didn?t apply to them.

Maybe it?s also time to end the mass arrivals and other shutdowns (flyovers) if there are events (weather) that cause super saturation. But we RV pilots CAN and MUST do better.

At least there haven?t been any closures from runway accidents... Yet...
 
You can add me to the list of folks that won't be coming back any time soon. We tried to get in Sunday night, made several laps around Green Lake before it became obvious that it just wasn't going to happen, and diverted to KDLL for the night. Next morning, 1.2 hrs trying to make the 45 nm to Ripon and join in, again the holds were saturated and then the field closed. Back to KDLL again, wait 30 min and top off fuel, then spent another 1.8 in the air before finally getting in. The entire time was spent flying loose unbriefed formation flight with untrained rookies, and that's something I don't enjoy.

I don't know what the EAA/ATC can, or will, do to fix this. But this year cured me of coming to Oshkosh. Y'all can have it.
 
Oshkosh mess

We were n the oshkosh mess, about a 2H:45M hold. I would avocate for some changes next year. One thing that comes to mind is a controller at ripon so that it can be actually shut down and allow for spacing into fiske. I think we will be thinking twice about flying to kosh again, or at least when we are flying into kosh. In the 10 years or so i have been involved, ripon has always felt like the-least safe point, often planes cutting in on top of one another. It seems like a well known problem area, i even have a friend who equips his rv with cameras to show others the craziness at ripon. Perhaps a better suggestion would be multiple feeder routes to ripon with multiple controllers. That is not going to stop people holding the wrong direction around the lake or coming in with low fuel, but might be a safer environment.

Bryan
 
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None of this sounds like any fun at all, and a lot of it sounds downright unsafe. If there is no mechanism other than goodwill and personal responsibility to discourage unsafe or impolite flying/line cutting, then how would we expect it to get better? Publishing a NOTAM/set of rules does little good if people don't feel they are bound to follow it. Hoping for good weather to smooth the arrival flow is not a real plan.

I would not want to risk my skin or my airplane in a mess like what has been described here. Driving seems like a less frustrating and safer option for me when I go in the future. Maybe just fly to a regional stop and rent a car or hail an uber.

I like to think I am a decent pilot but jam me and a hundred other "decent" pilots into a situation we are not truly familiar with, and compound it with varying levels of experience and patience, and my performance will degrade along with everyone else's. Not a good recipe. I commend those who decided to bail and come back later.
 
Was actually thinking the same thing Bryan, feeder routes and more metering points. Plus many of us have ADSB now. Have ATC start using it. Forget the Big Brother arguments for a moment. ATC can see along the route who is cutting in or has gotten too close, and cherry pick out the offenders.
 
Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

my perspective from the outside looking in via live atc. They were getting too many planes and needed to *try* and slow them down. I can understand how it would be frustrating to hear all planes being sent away from FISK but I never heard the tower slow down at all, so it's not like the runways were just wide open and they were sending people away for fun. My guess is the tower was the ones who told them no more for a few minutes.

I can't see what they could possibly do different, there is just no way to land as many planes that were making the attempt Sunday into 2 or 3 runways; when the weather gets bad especially on opening weekend I think that's just the way it is. if you can land 150 planes per hour but there's 200 planes per hour showing up, there is nothing that can be done and as time goes on that extra 50 keep stacking up.

With regards to putting controllers at Ripon, I think that would just push the cluster back a little further, the capacity issue at the runways is what is going to cause bottlenecks wherever the starting point is.

For our group specifically, does anyone know what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend since I've started flying in, 3 years now I've never had to turn back or hold on Friday morning; and as a bonus I only have to burn one vacation day.
 
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I have been flying with ADSB for about 3 years now and I have seen a trend of pilots using ADSB to purposely cut in front of other traffic. There seems to be a perception that if there is a safe gap in between two aircraft, then its OK to use ADSB to surgically insert one's self, despite the hazard that it may create. I see this almost every weekend at fly in breakfasts or where there is an arrival procedure, i.e... SERFI, Triple Tree, Oshkosh. In the old days, we didn't know what we didn't know about other traffic, we used a little more common sense. Now it seems we use ADSB to purposely fly closer to others in an effort to get ahead of them. A few weeks ago I watched a Cessna driver valiantly try to dive from 5000 ft to try to cut in front of me to the downwind entry, no radio calls, no common sense. Later in the breakfast line, I heard the same pilot bragging about being at Vne to try to get in front of that RV....
 
...what it would take to get our own slot blocked off? "RV's to Oshkosh" and get our own 2 hr slot on Sunday?

While I miss some of the early festivities this is exactly why I prefer the second weekend...

I watched the mess yesterday and for the first time I was glad I was sitting at my computer and not up flying. It was insane. The only way I would attempt to come in the first weekend would be with the "RV's to Oshkosh". With so many RV's flying now, you'd think it would be possible to put together.
 
From where I sat (for 5+ hours), if the controllers would break out specific aircraft from the line at Fiske to get their spacing with arrivals, the flow would work. The controllers would often just say ?STOP STOP STOP? and turn everyone out of the line so no one got in, just compounding things. They told the ones they broke out to rejoin at Ripon when there was already a good line up for 10 miles southwest of Ripon. The airshow was at Ripon. ATC needed to ?control? it. The pilots cutting in made it much worse and unsafe. After thinking about it over a beer, never again for me. I?ll go to plan B, thank you.
 
I?ve flown in probably 8-10 times and will absolutely do it again. This year things were compounded because of the weather delaying all arrivals. I have landed and waited for the holds to clear once before, but usually we get right in. I would consider this year an anomaly. It is disappointing that it seemed like the ones that got in were the ones that didn?t follow instructions, but there will always be some of those. The procedure, as I see it, is adequate. There are probably over 10,000 planes on the ground here and not a single accident in all the holding. See and avoid has worked because most people read and follow the notam and they just put up with people cutting in and doing things wrong without making a big deal about it. I think the controllers did the best they could with what they had. I congratulate the controllers and the pilots for not having any mid-airs and am sorry for those who didn?t get in. It?s a great event and worth the hassle, IMHO. Blaming anybody for the trouble doesn?t do anything productive. Let?s just all continue to do what we can to be safe and suck up our pride when somebody is inconsiderate or ignores the procedure. I?m sure we?ve all done something wrong in our flying careers.
 
When it was done by the trained and approved originators, "merging and spacing" was for IFR at ATC's approval. It was not just eyeballed, you could watch the closure and range and see the speeds.

See and avoid and VFR altitudes can only do so much if you think your ADSB picture buys you a passing right or short cut.

Unintended consequences in aviation are a bit thornier than in many pursuits. Folks turned off to flying into Oshkosh in these threads is an example.

Spent time Sun and Mon listening and watching at 9 threshold and the show.

ATC did seem to say, "we're shut off" often, then just one runway. It would help if the patch from tower to arrivals giving and taking planes could be heard or explained by an insider.

When traffic hits a critical point, it stinks, period. The Sat and Sunday weather did not help.
 
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Sunday evening

I was in the mess Sunday late afternoon for two rounds then diverting to Appleton. I am amazed at human nature. If I had a Cardinal pull around us at 50yards distance at any other time, it would be catastrophically unheard of. Discussions would be had. Tempers would flare at the FBO. All because it is obviously unsafe, illegal, and well below any personal minimums. Just because this is OSH, it seems acceptable or understandable given weather, ATC, get-there-itis, etc. What's worse, I stayed at it for one more round with the system obviously not working. Where were my convictions to personal minimums? Like road rage, the answer is obvious in retrospect. I can't see flying here again at this time.
 
We (EAA Board) hear you (and many other flyers)

Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.


This is the 19th AirVenture that I have flown my RV to. IF I experience another year like this one, I will no longer fly my RV to AirVenture.

I put 2.6 hours on my hobbs meter going from KUNU to KOSH. It should not take 2.6 hours to fly from 41-nautical miles even at 90 kts NOTAM arrival.

Unknown why ATC wanted everyone in trail with 1-mile separation. AT times, they asked for 2-miles. Is this an ATC slowdown? NOTAM says 1/2 mile in trail.

My APRS track shows 2.2-hours. The other 0.4 hours on the hobbs must be taxi time as there was a long wait sitting waiting for ATC to let us cross RWY 27.

Here is what the ground track looked like on aprs.fi.

Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.33.22_PM.png


You may still be able to see my track on AirPRS.com if the site has not gone dark.

This is what the AirPRS track looks like:
Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.32.21_PM.png


This is what traffic looked like toward the end of the hold that started at 7:50 AM.

Screen_Shot_2018-07-23_at_9.53.03_PM.png


I did report my negative arrival experience to an EAA Board Member and promised to follow up with an email. I have a friend that is working ATC here and plan to inquire what his understanding is of all the bad experiences being reported this year.

One BIG mess up today was the B1 morning fly by. They closed the airport to arrives during the schedule B1 time slot. It did not show on time. When it showed up almost one hour later, they closed the airport. This screw up is why I think I flew so long in a holding pattern. In my opinion, when the schedule time was missed, another one should not have been given.

I may be the only one that does not mind holding for the rescheduled mass arrivals but not for my tax dollars being wasted to make noise and causing me to spend more money to fly a holding pattern.
 
I have not had the opportunity to fly into OSH but have been into Sun N Fun several times. (Also stayed at Holiday Inn ) and have gone thru the arrival procedure for OSH but not seriously planned a trip. Do they not use the TAXI as a parallel runway on both/or either 35 and 27? By splitting up the arrival points to two DIFFERENT locations ie FISK and KSIF looks they could use parallel runways to stage the traffic with complete separation from the other. BUT that's not going to help much on the ground handling saturation and parking issues.

I do agree it may be time to re look the arrival procedure for traffic volume just from the safety aspect.

And don't misunderstand, I am NOT saying Sun N Fun has the greatest arrival plan by any means.
 
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