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Too old to build an RV-15?

azrv6

Well Known Member
Let's assume you are approaching 70 years old. Two years before you get started, depending on where you end up in the queue. Probably a best case scenario would be 3 years to complete (multiple time builder). That puts you at 75+ at the earliest for the first flight. Might be hard to get insurance. You could easily fly it for 10 years if health stays good.

Anyone 70 or above thinking about it?
 
I’m in exactly the same boat. Rapidly approaching 70, and just finishing my 6th RV. I looked at the -15 at OSH, and liked it - dreamed about it a little. I don’t know if my body will continue to contort the way it needs to for another build, although this new one will be an assembly project, so quicker and easier. I think the decision will be made for me by the insurance underwriters, who won’t want to write a policy on a taildragger (no matter how much claim free TW time I have) on a 75 year old, unless I have an instructor with me. I think I will just fly my new RV6 with my grandkids, maybe teach them a few things about flying and aviation.
 
Go for it if you're willing to accept liability-only insurance. I'm 82, my wife is 70. We finished our RV8A eight years ago. We're now deep into an RV14A build which should be complete middle of next year. Yes, the physical demands are tougher but doable. Building alone is tougher. Harder to keep the late-night sessions going. Adequate work- space is more important. We also own a 1940 J-3. We both fly. We have never insured the hulls. If we ding 'em, we eat it. Never have had any trouble getting liability insurance through EAA affiliated insurers. Deal with your age realistically. Don't let it stop you from turning dreams into reality.
 
You Sir, are an inspiration!!

Go for it if you're willing to accept liability-only insurance. I'm 82, my wife is 70. We finished our RV8A eight years ago. We're now deep into an RV14A build which should be complete middle of next year. Yes, the physical demands are tougher but doable. Building alone is tougher. Harder to keep the late-night sessions going. Adequate work- space is more important. We also own a 1940 J-3. We both fly. We have never insured the hulls. If we ding 'em, we eat it. Never have had any trouble getting liability insurance through EAA affiliated insurers. Deal with your age realistically. Don't let it stop you from turning dreams into reality.

I am only 55 and worry about how much flight time I have left…you Sir, are an inspiration!
 
Go ahead..and a word on insurance

It's a matter of perspective. If it makes you happy TODAY to build, then do it. No one is guaranteed tomorrow anyway.

And on insurance, I did attend the "Age and Aviation Insurance" forum at OSH..long story short, the presenter also said you have to deal with your age realistically. Expect increases at 70 and 75, establish company loyalty, fly regularly, document training, and add an instrument rating if you can, even if you don't fly IFR often ..and on the topic of aircraft, he said the newer the better, avoid one-of-a-kinds, avoid complex, and the really GOOD news:

He said stay certified and avoid experimentals (if possible)..but also said specifically that Van's RV's (particularly tri-gears) were almost as close in rates as certified planes because of the proven design, popularity, availability of parts, and the fact that Van's is a well-established company.....so.....

I'm feelin' better about my 7A and 12is than I ever have!

Build on.
 
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Don’t let the old man in.

78, RV6A, ATP/CFI I try to fly 150 hours a year. Our insurance, full coverage, $80,000. hull went up to $1,300. last year from twelve.
 
I’d say depends on health and family history, my grandfather holds a class 1 medical at 89 (although he’d even admit that he’s too old to start a new build RV-15).
If you think you will fly to 80 and you’re 70 now I’d suggest buying a Super 170 and enjoy the next 5 years of flying it around that you’d spend waiting and building the RV 15 kit.
 
insurance

...Expect increases at 70 and 75, establish company loyalty, fly regularly, document training, and add an instrument rating if you can..."

Some comments:

Increases? Definitely, if you can even get a policy.

Company loyalty? Doesn't mean squat.

Flying regularly, training, additional ratings may help but when it comes right down to it, age is the biggest factor.

Don't think so? When I was getting insurance for my RV-10, 18 months ago, I wanted to have my Dad listed on the insurance. He was 78 at the time. I went through a well known broker and only two companies would write the policy. The cheaper one was in excess of $6000 a year; the other one was over $10,000.

Dad has been flying since 1957, has over 40,000 hours, all the ratings you can think of, and is an active instructor logging 50+ hours a month in Piper Cubs. Yes, he is also a Wright Brothers Award recipient.

I also wanted to list my 22 year old son, who has 500 hours. That was no issue, and only raised my premium by about $900 a year.

In the end, I opted to not list Dad...he flies the aircraft under the open pilot warranty, 500TT and 25 in type.

Point is, AGE is by far the biggest factor; loyalty, activity, and experience seem to be a very distant second.
 
I am at 90% point on my Honda powered Zenith 701, hope to fly this fall, good
LORD WILLING ,I will be 85 in December, if you enjoy building, build on !
 
Let's assume you are approaching 70 years old. Two years before you get started, depending on where you end up in the queue. Probably a best case scenario would be 3 years to complete (multiple time builder). That puts you at 75+ at the earliest for the first flight. Might be hard to get insurance. You could easily fly it for 10 years if health stays good.

Anyone 70 or above thinking about it?
I’m 71, retiring day-after-tomorrow. Not even considering an RV-15. I agree though, that enhanced ease of entry and exit is something that might tempt a septuagenarian.
 
Just hit 74 this month.

I would build the 15 in a heartbeat.

Trouble is, I cant afford it and my wife would kill me if we sold our current plane to finance a new project.

Then there is the insurance thing........how come age discrimination laws do not apply here?
 
Well...

...Expect increases at 70 and 75, establish company loyalty, fly regularly, document training, and add an instrument rating if you can..."

Some comments:

Increases? Definitely, if you can even get a policy.

Company loyalty? Doesn't mean squat.

Flying regularly, training, additional ratings may help but when it comes right down to it, age is the biggest factor.

Don't think so? When I was getting insurance for my RV-10, 18 months ago, I wanted to have my Dad listed on the insurance. He was 78 at the time. I went through a well known broker and only two companies would write the policy. The cheaper one was in excess of $6000 a year; the other one was over $10,000.

Dad has been flying since 1957, has over 40,000 hours, all the ratings you can think of, and is an active instructor logging 50+ hours a month in Piper Cubs. Yes, he is also a Wright Brothers Award recipient.

I also wanted to list my 22 year old son, who has 500 hours. That was no issue, and only raised my premium by about $900 a year.

In the end, I opted to not list Dad...he flies the aircraft under the open pilot warranty, 500TT and 25 in type.

Point is, AGE is by far the biggest factor; loyalty, activity, and experience seem to be a very distant second.

First, the presenter has been an broker/underwriter for over 40 years and had a hundred people very interested in his presentation. I might add that he said after age 69, it was virtually impossible to get a company to write a new customer policy, but if you were already a customer for many years, it was far more likely that the company would underwrite one...so, according to him, establishing loyalty DOES mean squat. And I (and he) never said age WASN'T the leading factor...but according to him, other things (training, hours flown in the past year, ratings) do play a part in the overall decision of a company to cover someone. Also, I cannot overemphasize the importance he placed on the TYPE of aircraft. Complex/RG, tail draggers, and older planes were most certainly in the bad category.

Your personal experiences may or may not be in conflict with his advice. I'm just passing on what the man said. Don't kill the messenger.....
 
. I might add that he said after age 69, it was virtually impossible to get a company to write a new customer policy, …
.

Not so sure about this. At age 71 I had no trouble switching to a new company (same broker) when I found out my previous company was getting out of the EAB business.
 
Messenger

First, the presenter has been an broker/underwriter for over 40 years and had a hundred people very interested in his presentation. I might add that he said after age 69, it was virtually impossible to get a company to write a new customer policy, but if you were already a customer for many years, it was far more likely that the company would underwrite one...so, according to him, establishing loyalty DOES mean squat. And I (and he) never said age WASN'T the leading factor...but according to him, other things (training, hours flown in the past year, ratings) do play a part in the overall decision of a company to cover someone. Also, I cannot overemphasize the importance he placed on the TYPE of aircraft. Complex/RG, tail draggers, and older planes were most certainly in the bad category.

Your personal experiences may or may not be in conflict with his advice. I'm just passing on what the man said. Don't kill the messenger.....

Yes, my experience definitely was not what he said…and I had been with my company for two decades…

Not shooting the messenger, just providing a data point…
 
My earlier post:

"I might add that he said after age 69, it was virtually impossible to get a company to write a new customer policy....."

Not so sure about this. At age 71 I had no trouble switching to a new company (same broker) when I found out my previous company was getting out of the EAB business.

vir·tu·al·ly
/ˈvərCH(o͞o)əlē/
adverb
adverb: virtually
1.
nearly; almost.

Maybe you were just lucky...or maybe it comes down to my earlier comment that the guy said loyalty DOES mean something. Perhaps your broker went to bat for you with the new company unbeknownst to you...anyway, I'm glad it worked out. I'm sure there are personal stories good and bad about whether someone can get covered. Long story short, when it comes to insurance, getting old sucks the big one.
 
Uhh...Never go late to a forum!

Who was doing the presentation?

Well, I got there about 5minutes late, so I didn't get his name. It was the "Age and Aircraft Insurance" topic in Forum Building # 4, Monday afternoon, 25 July around 2 or 230 in the afternoon.....The man looked like he was in his 60's, silver hair, slim, talks like an auctioneer. He was a very comfortable public speaker and seemed to have a great deal of knowledge....Perhaps someone else who was there could provide his name..his company and name was not on his power point presentation
 
Not so sure about this. At age 71 I had no trouble switching to a new company (same broker) when I found out my previous company was getting out of the EAB business.

Yes, my experience too. My broker shops me around every year and at 71 last year she switched me to a company that offered a policy with much better coverage at a lower price. My renewal is coming up. I was told that the most important factor the underwriters look at is hours flown in last year.
 
Just hit 74 this month.

I would build the 15 in a heartbeat.

Trouble is, I cant afford it and my wife would kill me if we sold our current plane to finance a new project.

Then there is the insurance thing........how come age discrimination laws do not apply here?

I get that your question might be facetious, but I believe the answer is, "Because actuarial insurance calculations are kinda like 'settled science'?"

In the purest sense (not the sense in which health insurers can now be forced to sell you a policy with a pre-existing condition, which is like driving uninsured until you wreck the car and then demanding they sell you a policy to cover the accident you just had) , the insurance biz is about taking bets and spreading risk, with the house allowed to make a margin on said bets. Often a huge, really obscene margin, tis true. The odds ratios they have to tie their premium-bets to are based in hard reality about age and relative risk.

The life insurance industry is getting hammered this year by unexpected shifts in mortality-by-demographic, but I'm willing to bet that aircraft accident trends by age remain relatively unaffected.

Age discrimination is precisely the calculation that an insurance actuary must engage in to be doing their job correctly. There is no legislating that away.
 
but I'm willing to bet that aircraft accident trends by age remain relatively unaffected.

Age discrimination is precisely the calculation that an insurance actuary must engage in to be doing their job correctly. There is no legislating that away.
So what is the rationale with, ‘We’ll sell you insurance despite your age since you’ve been with us for so long’ vs ‘we won’t sell insurance to someone your age who is new to us’?
 
So what is the rationale with, ‘We’ll sell you insurance despite your age since you’ve been with us for so long’ vs ‘we won’t sell insurance to someone your age who is new to us’?

Yet another input to the actuarial calculations. New customers are an unknown. Established customers have a claim (or lack thereof) history.
 
Yes you can!

Let's assume you are approaching 70 years old. Two years before you get started, depending on where you end up in the queue. Probably a best case scenario would be 3 years to complete (multiple time builder). That puts you at 75+ at the earliest for the first flight. Might be hard to get insurance. You could easily fly it for 10 years if health stays good.

Anyone 70 or above thinking about it?

My neighbor was 89 or 90 when he decided he wanted a wood airplane. He completed a Pietenpol and at 92 or 93 and he flew it to Broadhead WIsconsin and then to Blakesburg Iowa and eventually home to Colorado. So the answer is YES, if you want to!
 
Yet another input to the actuarial calculations. New customers are an unknown. Established customers have a claim (or lack thereof) history.

Isn’t that exactly why the application asks for your claim history? And if you lie your claim may be denied?
 
Yet another input to the actuarial calculations. New customers are an unknown. Established customers have a claim (or lack thereof) history.

My broker told me that, for the most part, longevity with a company has little bearing. The new company learns all they need to know about that from the questions they ask on your application. Especially your claims history.
 
I'm 60 and have been waiting for the RV-15 since a few months after I sold my RV-8 but Van's decided to build another spam can for my taste so I'm going to pass on it. Yes, it has some technical differences, like the independent landing gear, but that's also been already kind of done by Luscombe.

If they had made it tandem seating then it would have been a game changer, since you can't get any nice new all metal tandem planes, unless you're wiling to spend $350k+ for a refurbished old ex-military plane.


I almost spent $250k last month for a plane I used to own 20 years ago, and it was a real old ex-military tandem plane.

Little disappointed I won't be buying an RV-15 but I guess I'm not the only one. That POLL went south so quick that it was closed before I got a chance to enter my NO.

Hey Van's, if you're reading, how about an option for the RV-15 for tandem seating, if it's not too hard to install the system you already have in the RV-4 or RV-8?
 
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Yes, I'm 70 and the brain cells are getting thinner. At a minimum I can't imagine not at least buying the emp kit. I just love to build. I've already drilled a hole into my finger on the rv12 so this one should be smoother!

When you build a high wing, bush like taildragger and it's metal, it's difficult not to compare it to the 170 et al. But this is Van's, this will fly like a Van's and I've never seen a 170 do that~

Bob
 
Let's assume you are approaching 70 years old. Two years before you get started, depending on where you end up in the queue. Probably a best case scenario would be 3 years to complete (multiple time builder). That puts you at 75+ at the earliest for the first flight. Might be hard to get insurance. You could easily fly it for 10 years if health stays good.

Anyone 70 or above thinking about it?

Thanks for this thread! It’s like reading my own internal voice. Will I be too old? No! Just go for it! I can’t afford the insurance! Don’t need it!! It will take too long! But it would be fun!! I’m brand new to this forum, having always been a high-wing, slow-landing type but the -15 would bring me over to the Vans crowd. At Osh I was really impressed with Vans personnel, company ethics, kit quality, etc, etc. and have new respect for RVers. Further complicating my decision is that I literally ordered a Bearhawk Patrol kit two weeks before Osh. The wait period is about the same so I have awhile to angst about what I’ll do….
 
Pilot135pd

Have judge your own health, I started my Zenith 701 in fall of 2018, just before turning 80, good lord willing I hope to fly this fall just before my 85 birthday, at my age , not worried about insurance. Thats why I chose Zenith, less expensive,
and pulled rivets. Bought everything except fuselege/finish kit used from internet
and Zenith Aero listings, plus local airrcraft salvage yard.There was about 6 or so pilots at Florida UFO meeting wed. 1500 members world wide.Tomcatrv4
 
The Mission

I'm 60 and have been waiting for the RV-15 since a few months after I sold my RV-8 but Van's decided to build another spam can for my taste so I'm going to pass on it. Yes, it has some technical differences, like the independent landing gear, but that's also been already kind of done by Luscombe.

If they had made it tandem seating then it would have been a game changer, since you can't get any nice new all metal tandem planes, unless you're wiling to spend $350k+ for a refurbished old ex-military plane.


I almost spent $250k last month for a plane I used to own 20 years ago, and it was a real old ex-military tandem plane.

Little disappointed I won't be buying an RV-15 but I guess I'm not the only one. That POLL went south so quick that it was closed before I got a chance to enter my NO.

Hey Van's, if you're reading, how about an option for the RV-15 for tandem seating, if it's not too hard to install the system you already have in the RV-4 or RV-8?

Hey I’m with ya.
65 came and went with little fanfare. Retired stamped after all my previous pursuits including an Airline and Military (F16) career. Blessed to have survived and lived to tell the tales. Built two RVs and rebuilt a Rocket, enjoyed 25 years of adventures with my amazing wife in all three.
So, what’s next? What did we say in the F16 world: what’s the mission? Comfort speed and utility.
Comfort for 4, Speed of my RV4, utility of my Maule M5.
Vans?
RV10, too long to build and get kits, too expensive.
RV15? Unknown quantity, cost and availability. Also is the capability. There are plenty of flying GA airplanes for great utility and less cost. Then there’s the Bearhawk 5….hmmm.

So, it’s buy and fly or wait for crate.

I chose the first and dusted off my A&P, purchased a flying, fully functional 300HP F35 Bonanza (for the price of an RV4) that fits the Mission, for now.
:)
Smokey
 
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With the state of inflation, the price to build for all the kits has gone up to the stratosphere. I am glad I purchased most of the expensive stuff pre-covid. I am not sure it will make sense for my financial state to build even a simple kit now. I have ample time to build another kit, but my saving account says no.
 
Buy and fly

I got tired of waiting on the -15 and bought a Maule. It’s the truck and stol mission. Rv-9 for all the other stuff. As far as insurance, it’s liability only.
When I had the high dollar avionics in the Aerostar and Twinco, I added not-in-motion. Now that they are gone it’s back to liability only. No regrets.
 
Go for it if you're willing to accept liability-only insurance. I'm 82, my wife is 70. We finished our RV8A eight years ago. We're now deep into an RV14A build which should be complete middle of next year. Yes, the physical demands are tougher but doable. Building alone is tougher. Harder to keep the late-night sessions going. Adequate work- space is more important. We also own a 1940 J-3. We both fly. We have never insured the hulls. If we ding 'em, we eat it. Never have had any trouble getting liability insurance through EAA affiliated insurers. Deal with your age realistically. Don't let it stop you from turning dreams into reality.

I live about 5 minutes east of Canton at TA37 (website in my signature below). Come visit and I'll start the BBQ.

Aim High !!!
 
Smokey, thats why I am just about finished building a Zenith 701, loved RV4, but wanted something go any were low and slow, the Zenth 750 series are a little bigger an faster ! Tomcatrv4
 
Is what it is…

Yeah Tom, totally relate. I loved my Four, Six-X and Rocket. Of course I loved my Maule M5, T-Craft, Sonerai 2, current F35 Bonanza and of course the F16. I would build again for sure, just the “what” is the question. Health wise I feel great, “it’s not the years, it’s the mileage” applies with 65 years of running at min afterburner! I’m blessed to have survived many trials and physical challenges including cancer.
As I mentioned, blessed.
Next?
The Bearhawk sure is a great flying airplane, aerobatic, great utility and surprisingly fast. If the 15 is close to its numbers…we will see!

:)
V/R
Smokey
 
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Someone once asked George Burns why he didn't act his age and he replied "Nursing homes are full of people acting their age."


I'm 61. My knees are in their 70s on a bad day, my shoulders are the same. My mind is 13 years old whenever I look at an airplane. I hope to finish my SeaRey before I go west, but if I don't, the amount of value and enjoyment it's added to my life is incalculable. I'd rather go west and leave an unfinished airplane than live longer regretting that I didn't build her.
 
… I'm 61. My knees are in their 70s on a bad day, my shoulders are the same…

I’m 67 now. Pilates Reformer was/is magic for my shoulders, noticeable improvement in two months, complete recovery in two years. Can’t speak to the knees. Can't speak to mat Pilates.
 
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Let's assume you are approaching 70 years old. Two years before you get started, depending on where you end up in the queue. Probably a best case scenario would be 3 years to complete (multiple time builder). That puts you at 75+ at the earliest for the first flight. Might be hard to get insurance. You could easily fly it for 10 years if health stays good.

Anyone 70 or above thinking about it?

Building and staying active keeps you young! Go for it!
 
Aerobatic???

Don't see any reference to "aerobatic" on the Bearhawk website. But yes, agree with the rest.

Bearhawk advertises the Patrol as an aerobatic utility aircraft but it’s not on the BH4 or 5 utility description. From the website:

Most importantly, the Patrol is FUN! The remarkable performance is easily utilized by the average pilot. The stick controls connect the pilot to the aircraft in a way that a yoke cannot. The Patrol can land in many fields that you would not even consider with other airplanes. Furthermore, this stout airframe has experienced a very satisfying test program for intermediate aerobatics with a crisp roll rate and responsive handling. The Patrol’s versatility opens a whole new world of aviation to the private pilot.

I’ve helped build QB BH4 kit number one as well as helped with a Patrol, they’re built strong, I can assure you. I helped complete the test profile fly off on the 4 also. I didn’t spend a lot of time straight and level!
Bob Barrows put the Prototype 4 thru an extensive test regimen using a test pilot prior to kitting the airplane, including aerobatics. Since it was designed to carry an io-540 from his engine shop to customers, it’s robust.
They’re a great airplane family in their own rite although their appeal isn’t as large as Vans.

The Fifteen has competition no doubt.
https://youtu.be/8f8bA1lv618
:)
Smokey
 
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