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RV15-suggestion to Van

flysrv10

Well Known Member
With the price of paint and paint shop labor sky rocketing, Wouldn't be great if RV15 kit came with pre-finished skins, the same as as https://www.vashonaircraft.com.

It will help speed up completing the aircraft and eliminate finding and scheduling paint shops.

It not as standard kit, pre-finished skins may be provided as an Option.

Thank you Van. When can I order my kit?
 
Ain't happening

If I was Vans, the last thing I would do is pre paint parts and try to send them.
I can see all the customers complaining about a buff mark here or scratches there. What a nightmare it would be.
Ain't gonna happen.
Good luck Art
 
If I was Vans, the last thing I would do is pre paint parts and try to send them.
I can see all the customers complaining about a buff mark here or scratches there. What a nightmare it would be.
Ain't gonna happen.
Good luck Art

I do see your point as we are buying parts and not a finished plane. So you don’t think the plastic protection they already use can keep the pre-finished parts safe? Certainly, you and I will not make the decision. However, there are many finished products shipped safely every day.
 
LOL

Data point:

Every major shipment that I received while building my -10 was damaged during shipping EXCEPT the QB wings and fuse, which was delivered by Partain.

Luckily, most of the damage was to the crates and packaging, with only minor damage to to parts inside.

...and the blue plastic did not prevent those parts from ending up with some scratches...
 
Maybe a suggested experiment. Take 2 pieces of aluminum, shaped similar to what you find with kit parts. Prime & paint to finish gloss quality. Go through the usual build steps of cleko installation (2 or 3 times), maybe run a drill through the holes, dimple as would in the build process. Cleko again, than rivet (try both solid rivets & pulled rivets) your test pieces together & see if the prefinished surface is still in pristine shape. How'd it look?
Now picture how it would look with 18000 or more rivet repetitions.

Vachon may be able to do it in a production line environment (with pulled rivets). Most homebuilders go through a learning/training phase and don't work in pristine shop environments, so the process of painting afterwards covers a multitude of minor blemishes that pre-finished panels would be impossible to hide.
 
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Data point:

Every major shipment that I received while building my -10 was damaged during shipping EXCEPT the QB wings and fuse, which was delivered by Partain.

Luckily, most of the damage was to the crates and packaging, with only minor damage to to parts inside.

...and the blue plastic did not prevent those parts from ending up with some scratches...

In contrast, I had zero damage to my parts. Not even a hairline scratch.
 
RV-15X

Ahh.. one more addition I thought of..

An airplane that the builder/owner can go back and forth between nosewheel to tailwheel. Never have to worry about resale value, can switch if tailwheel insurance rates get jacked up too high or if your mission changes.. and deciding whether they want a tri or tailwheel version up front is negated.

See https://youtu.be/Eb7XvAUJahM?t=283 for a review of the NXCub which has this feature.
 
Easy Ingress/Egress

I need an airplane that is easy for my wife to get in/out of. She can not fly in my RV7 for this reason. Just a practical thing, otherwise a road coach RV is in our future.
 
An airplane that the builder/owner can go back and forth between nosewheel to tailwheel. Never have to worry about resale value, can switch if tailwheel insurance rates get jacked up too high or if your mission changes.. and deciding whether they want a tri or tailwheel version up front is negated.
Make it an option perhaps, but don't make it the default. The extra weight for gear attach hard points that you'll only use half of comes straight off your useful load.
 
Rob - take a look at the Glastar and Sportsman. Gear attach points cost zero extra weight as they form an integral part of the 4130 chromoly steel "cage".

In the case of our aircraft currently on trike gear, the taildragger sockets for the main gear house pop-out boarding steps - these are the slickest thing, especially for some of us who might have come from the factory as "short wheelbase models". :)

BillL - my wife has significant mobility impairment. We were within a hair's breadth of pulling the trigger on an RV8A build prior to her loss of mobility. In hindsight, had we built an 8A we would have sold it because there simply is no way for her to get into that or any existing RV design.

The Sportsman changed that situation entirely. Both the external wing strut and the internal V-brace behind the windshield provide excellent hand-holds to assist in boarding. The pop-out steps mentioned above are a critical element in her ability to get into the airplane; she doesn't use the step when deplaning as she just rotates her backside in the seat so her legs hang out the door then uses the handholds (strut, V-brace) to lower herself to the ground. The large cabin of the Sportsman gives her enough space to maneuver while getting in and out. As much as I like the RV8A, I'm so glad we didn't build one as it would have been a real disappointment to have to sell it after one of life's curveballs came our way.
 
I do see your point as we are buying parts and not a finished plane. So you don’t think the plastic protection they already use can keep the pre-finished parts safe? Certainly, you and I will not make the decision. However, there are many finished products shipped safely every day.

the plastic protection "they" use is not for protection during assembly. it is put on by the sheet manufacture to protect the sheet from damage during machine work. IE automated shears, punches and brakes. to use that type of protection vans would have to do the machine work, remove the protective film, finish the sheet, an reinstall a protective film. way to much work and cost.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
If I was Vans, the last thing I would do is pre paint parts and try to send them.
I can see all the customers complaining about a buff mark here or scratches there. What a nightmare it would be.

One time me and the family painted boards for our deck before nailing them on. Turns out, out can't even do THAT without it looking terrible. No way you can ship and rivet a skin without having to do 1000 touch-ups on it. I wouldn't even trust anodizing to withstand that let alone paint retaining a good finish.
 
the plastic protection "they" use is not for protection during assembly. it is put on by the sheet manufacture to protect the sheet from damage during machine work. IE automated shears, punches and brakes. to use that type of protection vans would have to do the machine work, remove the protective film, finish the sheet, an reinstall a protective film. way to much work and cost.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

FYI, we do actually apply the blue protective film - here at the Van's factory - after we receive it from the supplier (it comes to us without any protective film) and before we start putting the sheets into the CNC punch presses to make airplane parts.
 
Fuel System

Since the RV-15 will be flown to remote locations which lack fuel, it would be nice if there was ample fuel capacity for the round trip. They say long range tanks are the best speed mod if you can avoid a landing to refuel.

I don't know if Cessna ever solved the uneven fuel feed between left and right tanks while in the "Both" fuel selector position. That would be awesome if Vans could pull that off.
 
RV15 Engine choice

After asking a few questions and listening to some interesting conversations at Oshkosh I got the clear feeling that Rotax is going to get a major new
customer for its 915iS engine around the first of 2022!

This 915iS engine is not cheap but has phenomenal performance. So we'll see how the RV15 comes together.
 
Since the RV-15 will be flown to remote locations which lack fuel, it would be nice if there was ample fuel capacity for the round trip. They say long range tanks are the best speed mod if you can avoid a landing to refuel.

I don't know if Cessna ever solved the uneven fuel feed between left and right tanks while in the "Both" fuel selector position. That would be awesome if Vans could pull that off.
It's easy - I did it on my S-21. Just install an Andair L/R fuel selector valve and plumb the header tank accordingly. The S-21 has 49 gal of fuel, almost all of which is useable, so it has very long legs for round trips of probably 2.5 hrs EACH WAY at moderate power level (8 gph).
 
After asking a few questions and listening to some interesting conversations at Oshkosh I got the clear feeling that Rotax is going to get a major new
customer for its 915iS engine around the first of 2022!

This 915iS engine is not cheap but has phenomenal performance. So we'll see how the RV15 comes together.

Sure sounds like you implying that the RV-15 will have a 915iS engine! From what I have heard lately the cost would not be that much different than a 180 hp Titan. Keeping the aircraft weight down would help lower the stall speed and turbocharging would be a plus for higher altitude flying. With an empty weight of 1000 lb or less performance would be good, especially with a light weight CS prop.
 
Since the RV-15 will be flown to remote locations which lack fuel, it would be nice if there was ample fuel capacity for the round trip. They say long range tanks are the best speed mod if you can avoid a landing to refuel.

I don't know if Cessna ever solved the uneven fuel feed between left and right tanks while in the "Both" fuel selector position. That would be awesome if Vans could pull that off.

I find the uneven fuel burn in Cessna’s can be attributed to pilot technique. If you have rudder trim, try moving it to the side that has more gas. Think “Step on the fuel”. The wings should be dead level in cruise, and almost imperceptible changes in rudder trim changes where fuel is burned from. This is also assuming both caps are vented in addition to the left wing vent.
 
Rotax Engine

After asking a few questions and listening to some interesting conversations at Oshkosh I got the clear feeling that Rotax is going to get a major new
customer for its 915iS engine around the first of 2022!

Interesting bit of information you got from Rotax.

It’s hard to say if Vans would entertain a Rotax. They did it with the RV-12, and I don’t think there are any regrets. The Rotax shows promise in some high-altitude strips where it would outperform many four-cylinder Lycomings. However, the Rotax will likely underperform higher horsepower, 6 cylinder Lycomings, even the naturally aspirated ones.

During the reveal, Vans framed their question as tandem vs. side-by-side. If those are the two options, that leads me to believe the RV-15 is a two-seater. If they are going with a two-seater, the airframe could be light enough to make the Rotax a very good choice. Now if they are looking at 4 seater, and they want short take off, there is a chance they’ll go with the larger Lycomings like you see on the Bearhawk.
 
RV15 Engine

I can only add that this rumour or best guess didn't come from Rotax but I think from a Rotax dealer.

After asking a few questions and listening to some interesting conversations at Oshkosh I got the clear feeling that Rotax is going to get a major new
customer for its 915iS engine around the first of 2022!

This 915iS engine is not cheap but has phenomenal performance. So we'll see how the RV15 comes together.
 
Wish list and challenge.

I've built a few RV's, and I'd love to see the following:

RV-awesomeness + Cessna Cardinal + Kitfox

4 seats, 1300-1400lb empty, 2400-2500lbs gross weight, design around 210 hp IO-390, with option for IO-360 or IO-540. Cruise 150-180mph, stall at 45-55mph. Lots of room and easy entry/exit. Easy build and maintenance. Goal would be simple VFR for <$120K, fancy high speed backcountry IFR for $160k. Modern sheet metal design. As little composite and acrylic work as possible. Pre-made FWF and wiring harnesses. Maybe some builder assist centers to get it done in less than the usual 5 years.

If our favorite kit manufacturer doesn't want to go there.... Let me know, and I'd love to make these for folks that love building and flying as much as I do... Here's a rough idea of my perfect plane. See attached for a few renderings. Hopefully this works.

Sarah

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Cruise Speed

I've built a few RV's, and I'd love to see the following:

Cruise 150-180mph...

Bump up the cruise speed by 10 to 15 mph and I would agree with you. There seems to be two camps of people on these RV-15 posts: one wants to shift the RV speeds lower to meet their STOL desires, and the other group wants to preserve the RV speed range in a high wing version. I guess it all depends on what Vans considers "backcountry capable".

Your images are pretty interesting. I see the spar carry-through has a reduced profile to accommodate passenger head room. I wonder if the spar could be moved aft a couple inches to give the front occupants even more headroom. I believe the Cardinal spar is placed a little aft as well. I like those doors. Reminds me of the Rans S-21.
 
I wonder if, and stay with me here, Vans could offer modular options. For Instance, a Standard Fuselage and wing hard-point, but options that can be added/removed/replaced:

Rugged Version: Heavy-duty struts (tri or dragger), balloon tires, leading-edge slats, cargo pod, STOL wingtips, etc.

Speed Version: Slim landing gear, fairings, cowling, shortened tips, etc.

The idea being you can mix or match these options to create the backcountry monster or speedster you want.


Is it possible to aerodynamically design a wing that can do both, with the addition of slats?
 
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I wonder if, and stay with me here, Vans could offer modular options. For Instance, a Standard Fuselage and wing hard-point, but options that can be added/removed/replaced:

Rugged Version: Heavy-duty struts (tri or dragger), balloon tires, leading-edge slats, cargo pod, etc.

Speed Version: Slim landing gear, fairings, cowling, etc.

The idea being you can mix or match these options to create the backcountry monster or speedster you want.


Is it possible to aerodynamically design a wing that can do both, with the addition of slats?

Certainly no reason that can’t be done. I was just finishing up an article on the latest American Legend Cub, and if you go through their order form, you start with a simple, basic Super Cub and start adding options until you want to stop - or if you don’t stop, you end up with the “Mother of All Cubs” (They actually call it that - the MOAC) that has every high lift, super shock absorbing, giant tired option you can think of.

Except cup holders….I didn’t see cup holders on the list….. ;)
 
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I thought of one more design item.. Some sort of integrated mountpoint to carry a Onewheel under a wing or belly. These things seem to be in the infancy of catching on now, especially since some of the YouTube personalities (e.g. Trent Palmer). Once the pricetag comes down to reasonable levels (or the patent expires), I can see a lot of people using these to navigate around the destination airport area.

..and if anyone from the factory is reading this.. you definitely need to tell Rian that the company needs to buy one for "research purposes" :)
 
I thought of one more design item.. Some sort of integrated mountpoint to carry a Onewheel under a wing or belly. These things seem to be in the infancy of catching on now, especially since some of the YouTube personalities (e.g. Trent Palmer). Once the pricetag comes down to reasonable levels (or the patent expires), I can see a lot of people using these to navigate around the destination airport area.

..and if anyone from the factory is reading this.. you definitely need to tell Rian that the company needs to buy one for "research purposes" :)

Already on our radar, actually for quite some time. :) Let’s just say I’m not fully proficient (I’m old, it takes time) but I have some meaningful amount of time logged on a Pint, hah.

But - first things first.

For this type of airplane cup holders would have to be on a gimbal.

DJI Osmo Cupholder?
 
My $0.02

2+2 seat
+2 seats folding jump seats

Wing hard points
Slats
Fowler flaps

Possibly 2 engine mounts/cowls for 4/6 cyl…Jet-A?

Wide-ish stance, not too short coupled.
Porter style gear.
Ability to fly up to cruise speed with doors off/windows open.
 
hah...

"...These things seem to be in the infancy of catching on now..."

...and the funniest thing I saw multiple times at Oshkosh this year, was people trying to learn how to stand on them!

Admittedly, not funny for them, at least one had to go to the ER...but the ones trying to do it with a beer in one hand, well...
 
Vans Update

I have a suggestion most can agree on. I suggest Vans provide at least a snippet of an update every now and then. It's been a month since the announcement and not a peep. Maybe a better definition of "Backcountry Capable" so we know what side of the performance spectrum Vans is leaning.

Sonex was pretty forthcoming this week with their high wing announcement.
 
I have a suggestion most can agree on. I suggest Vans provide at least a snippet of an update every now and then. It's been a month since the announcement and not a peep. Maybe a better definition of "Backcountry Capable" so we know what side of the performance spectrum Vans is leaning.

Sonex was pretty forthcoming this week with their high wing announcement.

I second that. All in favor..........
 
I thought of one more design item.. Some sort of integrated mountpoint to carry a Onewheel under a wing or belly. These things seem to be in the infancy of catching on now, especially since some of the YouTube personalities (e.g. Trent Palmer). Once the pricetag comes down to reasonable levels (or the patent expires), I can see a lot of people using these to navigate around the destination airport area.

..and if anyone from the factory is reading this.. you definitely need to tell Rian that the company needs to buy one for "research purposes" :)

One Wheels are fine, clever (although expensive) innovation. I’m an old shredder and I understand the attraction, especially for pilot transportation. I’ve ridden them a fair amount and found them pretty easy to ride. The downside is that at my advancing age I look silly in the required flat-billed skateboarder hat, and more importantly the penalty for going down is increasingly high. I don’t bounce as well as I used to. I’ve opted for a scooter instead. My Segway NineBot will go 20mph and 28 miles and costs about 1/3 that of a One Wheel and weighs the same. I agree with the attraction of mounting hard points, but I’d hope that they’d be flexible enough to accommodate a variety of electric toys, not just the current GenX fad.
 

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I wonder if, and stay with me here, Vans could offer modular options.

It seems like Kitfox lets you order the "7" in 3 different flavors. I was about to pull the trigger on one (getting in the 2 year line, that is) but now that the 15 is coming out I hear my 4 whispering for me to stay in the family.


I thought of one more design item.. Some sort of integrated mountpoint to carry a Onewheel under a wing or belly.

I love mine, it also doubles as a collar bone breaking machine which I'm sure is a downside for some.
 
Gotta Bike?

Well, there are many iterations of carrying things on (or inside) small aircraft. I once carried a craftsman 1/2HP air compressor in the back of my RV4 with the seat removed and occasionally a fold up bike. My Six-X easily carried two full size MTN Bikes (wheels removed) and a grandson in a bolted in carseat!
Having spent quite a bit of time in AK I can assure you there are no end of creative minds strapping or carrying things to austere places. I once witnessed a piano being loaded into a Cherokee 6! Many of the users on the Maule forum have creative ideas on carrying things as well, having a M5 of my own I can attest to it's utility.

That said, here are a few ideas Van will have to take into consideration for the RV15/16:













:)
Smokey
 
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Modest suggestion for Van's - if you do provide provisions for external equipment or supporting specific things inside, please make those provisions removable. That way there's a chance for people to make attachments for other things or just clean things up to save weight and drag.

Dave
 
I second that!

Need some pretty big tires to roll over the trees and rocks in the Canadian Shield. Lots of lakes though :D
 
I would love to see as much attention to sealing and weatherproofing designed-in as well as a car. Its a peeve of mine that almost all kitplanes leak air in the cabin and even with drain holes, collect water which can create high internal moisture or freeze up. I would love to have my RV-15 sit outside for a few days and not worry about the rain.
 
I can't believe this thread has gone 5 pages and NOBODY has asked for FLOAT FITTINGS!!

back country here means float flying!

The 15 needs to be like the Glasair Sportsman which can be ordered with a Nose-Wheel, or Tail-Wheel, or both Straight or Amphibious Float Landing gear. And the neat thing is after its built you can switch between configurations to match your mission.
 
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