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Poll - Pull or Pound?

Pull Rivets or Solid Rivets?


  • Total voters
    222

bhassel

Well Known Member
Rivets!

having built most of an RV-12 I can honestly say I'm voting pull rivets. Much quicker build! Of course that doesn't mean you can't use solid rivets, if you want, does it?

Bob
 
They can have potentially different strengths. A design for one might require somewhat more rivets or larger ones than a design for the other. There are impacts.

Dave
 
Solid

Having built a -12, much of a -7 and parts of a Sportsman and Glastar, I prefer solid rivets. Makes for a much smoother finish, easier to paint, easier to clean.
 
Quality suffers for the sake of build speed

Probably just me and don’t mean to knock the assemblers out there but pulled rivets just look cheap, amateurish and temporary. :eek: Obviously they are the required for certain special situations but otherwise just makes the project look like a high school shop project. Take the time and effort to use solid rivets for a more professional build. :) Sorry but just my stinky opinion.:D
 
Solid

To me, pull rivets are appealing for their ease of installation only. There's probably a cost savings for new builders WRT to tooling if they went with pull rivets. Some of the most expensive aircraft tools I own are mainly for installing solid countersunk rivets (DRDT-2, squeezer, rivet gun, tungsten bar) For repeat builders who are the likely customers in the near term, no advantage there.
 
Seems to me that decision is up to the designer!

;)

To me, pull rivets are appealing for their ease of installation only. There's probably a cost savings for new builders WRT to tooling if they went with pull rivets. Some of the most expensive aircraft tools I own are mainly for installing solid countersunk rivets (DRDT-2, squeezer, rivet gun, tungsten bar) For repeat builders who are the likely customers in the near term, no advantage there.

The designer will pick what is need for required strength and market price point.

Last time I purchased pulled rivets, they were several times the price of solid rivets. The price of pulled rivets will be a kit price much high than solid rivets. We need a CPA to determine if the price of the tools for solid rivets will cost more than the higher pulled rivet price.
 
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Pulled rivets are heavier, more expensive, typically not as strong, and make assembly easier. If the aircraft is designed for pulled rivets, then strength is not a factor.

As a rule, solid rivets can almost always be substituted for pulled rivets. Not necessarily the other way around.

The important thing when using pulled rivets is to use rivets that have a "specification". Hardware store "pop" rivets must never be used in aircraft construction.

I've built several aircraft using pulled rivets and never had a problem with them.
My biggest objection to pulled rivets is the use of round head rivets. I always use flush rivets. This makes the aircraft look better, easier to paint, and easier to clean.
 
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I voted "pull" but what I actually want is more nuanced than a binary choice. I love squeezing rivets and I don't really even mind driving rivets when I can get my hands on both sides to buck them myself. What I really hate is two-person rivet bucking, since the reliability and availability of your riveting partner becomes a challenge. Not to mention, bucking the rivets inside the fuselage and wings usually involves a lot of painful contortions. So I wouldn't mind a combination of squozen and pulled rivets in order to make solo building easier.
 
I voted "pull" but what I actually want is more nuanced than a binary choice. I love squeezing rivets and I don't really even mind driving rivets when I can get my hands on both sides to buck them myself. What I really hate is two-person rivet bucking, since the reliability and availability of your riveting partner becomes a challenge. Not to mention, bucking the rivets inside the fuselage and wings usually involves a lot of painful contortions. So I wouldn't mind a combination of squozen and pulled rivets in order to make solo building easier.

This is similar to my thinking. I'm building a -12, just about at the end of the fuselage kit. Contrary to what a lot of people think about us "assemblers" (I see you over the NYTOM ;) ), there is some actual airplane building and lots of solid rivets in the -12. You get plenty good at prepping for and squeezing solid rivets. I just finished getting the roll over structure all drilled out and countersunk, a task that most people will have "assembled" essentially the same way I did regardless of model.

I have enjoyed the build so much that I'm thinking about what to build next more than I think about going flying. The priority for me is a comprehensive design, documentation, and modern precision kit parts. My opinion is that those things will make a build more enjoyable than one type of rivet or another. If the next kit is well thought out, I'll be glad to have a bunch of dimpling and pounding to do. A little noisy, but I think my neighbors already have me pegged as the crazy guy building an airplane in the garage and will leave me alone.

Anyway, yeah. The idea of a solid rivet airplane biased towards squeezable rivets is attractive to me. I guess that's only practical if a bunch on the skins are blind rivets. By the end of the fuselage kit I think I actually prefer putting in squeezed solids to pulled blinds.
 
I’m assuming this poll is related to the new -15.

Insomuch as this design is backcountry capable, strength is the primary concern. Bush or backcountry airplanes take quite a beating, therefore in an ideal world, universal head solid rivets would be used for maximum strength.

Solid universal head rivets would up the build time considerably so maybe a mix of universal, flush and pull rivets could be used were appropriate.

It doesn’t have to be all or nothing.
 
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Insomuch as this design is backcountry capable, strength is the primary concern. Bush or backcountry airplanes take quite a beating, therefore in an ideal world, universal head solid rivets would be used for maximum strength.
...
Don't forget repair - particularly field repairs. Poop happens.
 
Strenght is king

I live in Alaska and fly a RV8, Cessna 182 and a Citabria 7GCBC on floats. if this going to a true back country aircraft it will get used and abused here in AK. Strength is king. I fully intend to buy this kit and assume it will be a great replacement for the Citabria...a pulled rivet construction method would give me pause.
 
I'm building a -9A and vote for solid rivets on the RV-15/16. In the overall scheme of building an aircraft, I don't think the pulled rivets give a noticeable time saving. Pulled rivets, whether dome or countersunk head still have a hole in the middle from the break stem. Potential water leak path, water freeze path, in addition to harder to paint and keep clean. Definitely solid rivets (I'm sure Rian at Vans has already made this choice).
 
Pull or solid

I doubt a poll will change all the engineering Vans has already done. I suspect it's a "Done Deal".
 
I doubt a poll will change all the engineering Vans has already done. I suspect it's a "Done Deal".

Maybe...but then why take a poll at the presentation
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I believe that's what's driving this conversation...some hope that Van's is listening...
 
Poll

Maybe...but then why take a poll at the presentation
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I believe that's what's driving this conversation...some hope that Van's is listening...

Doh! Sorry. I didn't see that. Nevermind! My vote is still pounded rivets. However, I do see the value in a quick RV12 type back country bird. :D
 
Probably just me and don’t mean to knock the assemblers out there but pulled rivets just look cheap, amateurish and temporary. :eek: Obviously they are the required for certain special situations but otherwise just makes the project look like a high school shop project. Take the time and effort to use solid rivets for a more professional build. :) Sorry but just my stinky opinion.:D

Considering all of the other skills you master over the course of an building an airplane, learning to buck rivets is trivial.

Pros: Looks better, lighter, cheaper, faster (flush rivets), makes a cool sound when you install them, WAAAY easier to paint. I've masked N-numbers for paint on nearly 30 pop-riveted airplanes. Words cannot accurately convey the royal pain that process is.

Cons: slightly harder to install.

In case you are worried, check out the RV-12 vs RV-14 build times. They are very close despite the rivet differences. In my opinion, the big deal for build-ability is the format of the build instructions and the matched hole punch.
 
I can’t vote as I’m in the “sensible mix” camp.

Driven flush heads where there is a clear benefit

Driven generally on internal sub assemblies that are built on the bench and are solo builder operations

Pulled where there is a clear benefit

With a lean towards pulled where possible on big skins to allow for single builder working.

But generally flush finished on the outside for all the painting, aesthetic and aerodynamic advantages.
 
Having been a structural engineer for over 35 years I’d much prefer drivens, despite the extra work.

In my experience blinds don’t hold up as well over the long term in joints with significant load transfer and they’re more prone to corrosion than drivens.

That said it’s entirely possible to design for blinds and use drivens in that small number of locations on the airframe that warrant it. Then you just have the cosmetics which everyone will have a different option on.

Thanks to Van’s for continuing to create new airplanes! I’m sure the 15 will be another excellent bird no matter which way they go.
 
I think a smart mix of both.

I don't know what the performance penalty is for pulled rivets.. eg what the speed difference is between a rv-12 and one of the few rv-12s built with pounded rivets.
 
I don't know what the performance penalty is for pulled rivets.. eg what the speed difference is between a rv-12 and one of the few rv-12s built with pounded rivets.

There should be no performance penalty for pulled rivets. The only performance penalty would be if round head rivets are used instead of flush. And even then, the speed penalty wouldn't be noticeable at the speeds we're talking.
 
Personally, I've driven and pulled. I think I prefer pulled for a number reasons most already mentioned in the posts.

Bob
 
I think a lot of planes end up in a similar style to that. Driven rivets in the easy and medium spots. Pulled rivets in the hard - impossible spots. Frequently threads appear asking "how do I buck these...". Usually an answer appears with either CherryMax rivets or one MK-319-BS in a tricky spot in a line of solid rivets (small rib noses, etc.). CherryMax are significantly more expensive than normal pulled rivets used by Van's, so there is that to consider I suppose.
 
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In my experience blinds don’t hold up as well over the long term in joints with significant load transfer and they’re more prone to corrosion than drivens.
...

There is a very important point here that no one else has mentioned. A back country airplane is exposed to a harsher environment, more often. Pulled rivets are an open door to environmental attack. Moisture and crud (which holds the moisture in longer) are inevitably going to get into pulled rivets. Bad juju.
 
Pull Rivet for Solo Build

I'm fine with a mix of pull and solid, providing the solid rivets can be installed without the need for a 2nd person to buck the rivets. I think it would save lots of hassle if the rivets can be installed solo. I've heard the stories about how fun it is to enlist assistance from others, but some of us don't have an abundance of skilled, or even unskilled help.
 
Why not both?

I think this is a false choice. The SPA Panther's design allows the builder to choose their style of rivet. In fact, not only can you choose between solid or pulled rivets, you can also choose between flush or protruding. Some folks elect to mix and match.
 
Fill ‘em

No-one seems to have mentioned filling the heads of pulled rivets. I did that on my RV12 and have had no related issues with paint or environment.
 
Huh?

No-one seems to have mentioned filling the heads of pulled rivets. I did that on my RV12 and have had no related issues with paint or environment.

So that means filling each rivet bead with something like epoxy or jb weld. Gotta be heavy????
Also I would worry some one would over fill and then try and sand down excess, but end up thinning rivet or surrounding skin.
I dont know of any other kit manufacturer with filled rivet heads.
 
I think this is a false choice. The SPA Panther's design allows the builder to choose their style of rivet. In fact, not only can you choose between solid or pulled rivets, you can also choose between flush or protruding....

And that too is the structural engineer's design choice. Unless a design allows that, a builder should use the kind of rivet specified.

Dave
 
Pulling my leg?

Even the F16 with its mix of composite control surfaces and flush riveted aluminum structure has pulled rivets in places. AVEX rivets grace the engine intake and several other places nearly impossible to squeeze or buck. I really started noticing them on walkarounds while building my 4!
They are strong, sound, time saving and several other kit manufacturers utilize them exclusively for easier construction.
I for one hated driving rivets and the eventual fiberglass components, without helpful (seemingly always hungry and thirsty) volunteers I would never have gotten my Four (or 6-X) airborne. However, like a bad movie I got thru it.

Pulled rivets are viable in any application Vans Aircraft applies itself to.
:)
V/R
Smokey
 
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