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engines are full of surprises

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VETE76

Well Known Member
I hope your luck is better than mine with engines. I am in phase 1 with my RV 7. Soloed July 4th 2013,
But I should have soloed around June 1st but couldn?t.
I was having problems with my brand new Lycoming engine I bought straight from Lycoming. 1st problem was it wouldn?t start. After 2 weeks and finally hiring someone it was determined that both mags were 180 deg out (so to speak). With #1 tdc #4 fired on intake stroke. The IA found that both mags were out. He corrected them and said your all set. It?ll start now. And boy it did! I paid him.
Lycoming said wow don?t know how that could have happened. I asked for them to pay the bill???.ha.
But a 2nd problem was starting and it was in the starter! It would work only 30% of the time. So I called Lycoming again and after a week of discussion they said it sounds like your starter isn?t working???????.no comment. So I asked them to send me a replacement and was told ?NO?. I have to buy a new starter and send them the invoice and receive credit from Lycoming. I said I wanted a check, I didn?t want credit! So I took the starter off and discovered they had installed a 24 volt starter in stead of a 12volt. I did not call them! In between all this time I called SKYTEC and told them their starter was intermittent. Garrett immediately said I will send you a new solenoid no charge today. Try that that and let me know. I didn?t work obviously because it was a 24v starter on my 12v airplane. Garrett said ok send back the starter and we will fix it and we?ll pay for everything etc. NICE people! In the mean time I hired the IA back to help with the problem. It took him 20 minutes to determine I needed a starter. I had him check all my stuff I had built for the starting system, battery, cables, solenoids, grounds etc. to make sure it wasn?t something I did to cause the problem. He didn?t remove the starter to look at it, didn?t need to. So sun I decided to remove the starter and that?s when I discovered it was 24 volt. I then went to Penn Yan engines and bought a new starter 12v. Will try it later tonight. So now I have a brand new 24v starter sitting around. Who uses 24v starters?
Fred
 
WOW, great advertising for buying Lyc direct.:rolleyes:

How many thousand folks read this forum?
 
pre-start checks...

Even with a new engine it is a good idea to pull the mags, inspect, check internal timing, and re-time to the engine. My Sky-Tec starter came with an external jumper to select 12/24 volt... surprised that a dedicated 24v showed up. What model was the starter?
 
I actually watched a "How it's Made" about Lycoming a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty interesting but I can see how in any manufacturing environment, things can be missed. Sorry to hear about your troubles, glad you got it fixed.
 
interesting

The engine should have been run on a test stand several times and a QA form filled out on it. It is surprising to me that the mags were installed incorrectly after the test cell runs. Something sounds fishy to me. The starter issue makes me think that you got an engine meant for someone else... ie an airframe manufacturer. Lycoming's apparent lack of interest in this makes me think there is more to this story...???

Chris M

ps I have no stake in this other than it seems puzzling.
 
Everyone makes mistakes

A year down the road the starter problem will fade into the significance of a personal hiccup if the engine itself performs reliably. Still you have to wonder about the factory process. I have personally toured the factory at Williamsport and I have seen the test cells and seen the engines being run before they are processed for delivery. The factory is quite old but adequate for the purpose and personnel seem to be dedicated employees but still these things happen. They are not operating in the fat days of the 1970s, etc. producing their little engines and I doubt that they consider themselves in a growth industry. i'm sure they get their share of abuse and false claims in a tough market and there probably isn't a lot of flexibility in their company procedures in dealing with claims - just an observation.

In ~1999 I received my new O-360-A1A with LASAR ignition complete with the yellow test cell data sheet but the Mags were off the correct 25 BTDC timing by +65 degrees. It would start but I had to operate it very carefully to keep the EGT off the high end stop. I flew it that way as I worked with Lycoming, Precision Airmotive and Unison to find the problem. The Lycoming customer service in the factory was of very little direct help but their West Coast representative was outstanding - again just an observation

In my case as I hope you will find as well the basic engine was perfect and has served me well now for over 1000 hours but there is a breakdown in the factory process after the basic engine assembly and the rest of the process from test cell operation through delivery. Things like operations efficiency, cleanup, insistence on brand new zero run time accessories, etc. can be involved. They are in a complex mechanical product business and they are dealing with amateur builders with no established integration and test process who depend on them so every single production unit is life critical. An audit of the post basic engine assembly process I'm sure would reveal very quickly how experiences like yours and mine can happen (shift changes, weekends, special employee dependence, mistakes, fear of reprecutions, lack of inspection points in non-machining operations, etc. etc.) but I'm not there in their world so I can't offer any suggestions. I can say I am happy with my Lycoming engine.

Bob Axsom
 
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Thanks for posting your experience. I read it with great interest. While I agree that mistakes can happen and this will be forgotten before long, the lack of support speaks VOLUMES for me as I approach the engine buying process.
 
Brian Costello

Bob Axsom said:
their West Coast representative was outstanding -

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

I bet this was Brian, am I right? He is currently and was I'm pretty sure back in 1999 the west coast Lycoming rep for helicopters and experimental, Brian is a very nice guy and he knows his Lycomings, he has been a huge help to me over the years. Keep in mind though that help from Brian is help directly from Lycoming, they pay his salary.
 
Companies like Lycoming are much more accustomed to dealing in business to business relationships - for nearly a hundred years, that was all they did. Companies that excel in direct consumer relationship usually have a lot less history, baggage, and big-corporate culture to deal with. That's not an excuse, just my observation of lots (but not all) big companies in today's market.
 
This is still America - right?

Just my not so humble opinion but it seems to me that LYCON should have offered you a new 12 V starter and given you a refund on your order (yeah, both).

Has LYCON gotten too big or does somebody there just need to get fired? Customer service/satisfaction??? Rejecting your claim and not offering you a check back seems to be wrong.

Something is wrong about this whole deal. Don't give up - let them have another chance to make it right.
 
I got my Lyc via Vans, and will be checking it tomorrow. Modern QC procedures preclude most errors like this. Very surprising. Sounds like it sat in a warehouse and got scavenged.

I would follow the money in reverse to solve the problems.

Good luck - - !
 
Fortunately most people have a great experience with Lycoming direct.

I purchased a factory-remanufactured (zero time) O-235 for a non-RV installation 11 years ago. Absolutely flawless from the day that I purchased it.

Really scratching my head about those mags though, because they run the engines prior to shipping, and it's my assumption that the mags that come on the engine are the ones that they use in the initial run.
 
Really scratching my head about those mags though, because they run the engines prior to shipping, and it's my assumption that the mags that come on the engine are the ones that they use in the initial run.[/QUOTE]

their test cell has its own mags . they run the engine then put mags on and ship, ask me how I know this. and if your real lucky they will even throw on a 24v starter for a12v order. just wrog place wrong time on this one.
 
Bought my new Lycoming IO-320D1A thru Vans. It has run flawlessly since installation, 2 1/2 years ago. Mags were timed right on.
 
The Lycoming from Van's still has be baffled with the need but without the inclusion of a Slick Start. Who buys an engine without an impulse coupling these days? I would think Vans would spec their engine with dual impulse coupled mags. Just another, "someone wasn't thinking when they did that" moment like you're dealing with, IMHO.
 
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