Is it time for an RV type club?

I was reading the most current issue of "Sport Aviation" at lunch today and read Jeff Skiles' article on the EAA's growth and direction, and how the organization strives to meet the needs of all of its members. He cited examples of the various type clubs to which he belongs, most of them related to vintage or antique aircraft.

As I read his article and considered the myriad type clubs that exist for owners of Cessnas, Bonanzas, Wacos, etc., and how each exists to fill a niche for a particular interest group, it occurred to me that perhaps, given the recent threads about the EAA and the various levels of satisfaction and dissatisfaction among this group, it's time for RV owners to start their own type club.

I did a search on this subject in the archives and came up blank. As Jeff said in his article, belonging to a type club doesn't negate the want or need to belong to a larger group like the EAA. With over 7,600 RVs built and flying these days, is it time for an RV version of Paul Poberezny to step up to the plate and form an RV type club?

Thoughts?

I think we already have it!

For all intents and purposes, I think we already have a 21st century type club right here. Doug, our peerless leader, has been our RV Paul P for years. We do more than any type club I know about. The only difference is that we don't have the title of "type club". As far as I am concerned, you guys are family. Can't get any closer than that.

Steve Ashby said:

For all intents and purposes, I think we already have a 21st century type club right here. Doug, our peerless leader, has been our RV Paul P for years. We do more than any type club I know about. The only difference is that we don't have the title of "type club". As far as I am concerned, you guys are family. Can't get any closer than that.

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+1

I don't know any other group I have ever belonged to, officially or unofficially, that provided me with more guidance and direction, camaraderie, social interaction or just downright connectivity to other human beings than I have gained by "belonging" to the VANS AIRFORCE!

amen

This is a great club. So exclusive the members don't even show up.

Steve Ashby said:

... The only difference is that we don't have the title of "type club". ...

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Except ... VANS AIRFORCE

+1

I think the fact that VAF isn't 'official', and doesn't have officers and/or committees is one of its strongest selling points!

As for national fly-ins.....I think the future will end up with some of us enjoying more 'virtual fly-ins', instead of big, national gatherings. A few folks with streaming webcams clipped to their caps uploading live video in real time...and people enjoying them on 8' x 5' TVs covering the living room wall. You'll go to the local gatherings with your RV....and someone will stream it for your friends to enjoy (maybe across the globe).

As an example, here's NYC from the Statue of Liberty...in HD....streaming live:
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/statueofliberty/?cam=liberty_hd
You can make it full screen by clicking on the little icon at the bottom left corner (after the jump).

Here's Palm Beach....live and in HD....: http://www.earthcam.com/usa/florida/palmbeach/

Live, streaming video from a camera on the counter there at the Van's tent at the big fly-ins. Streaming from a few of the planes - maybe the demo flights. I say all this only sort of kidding....my monitors are bigger than my desk now and the TV on the wall is five times bigger than what we had five years ago (and cheaper). We regularly video chat (Skype) with relatives thousands of miles away. We see them more now than we ever have...and they are actual size.

Moore's Law has fleshed out pretty accurately the last few decades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law).

All this technology can also be used to produce safety videos.

Steve Ashby said:

For all intents and purposes, I think we already have a 21st century type club right here. Doug, our peerless leader, has been our RV Paul P for years. We do more than any type club I know about. The only difference is that we don't have the title of "type club". As far as I am concerned, you guys are family. Can't get any closer than that.

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Well done

My, Steve, that was quick. With one post someone connected the obvious dots.

The biggest difference between this intimate online community and a real type club is FLY-INS!

I can see a VAF magazine ... regional fly-ins ... and an annual convention somewhere in Kansas (keeping it centrally located).



(DR, I'm workin' on some job security for you)

N8RV said:

... regional fly-ins ... and an annual convention somewhere in Kansas (keeping it centrally located).

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October...Oklahoma

Gents

Part of the reason that this term "type club" has such cache is that is the term that the FAA latched onto as something they could hang their hats on in their campaign for improved GA safety. It allows the FAA GA guys to be able to tell their boss - "ya, we are working the problem through the GA type clubs".

They looked at the work done by the various type clubs mentioned by N8RV (thanks Don) and recognized that the clubs actually got some significant work done. As a result, EAA has formed a "Type Club Coalition" in an effort to pool the collective resources and brain power to try to get the results the FAA wants - lower accident stats.

I attended the first Type Club Coalition meeting last year at Airventure (along with Van). There is some potential here to acheive the desired results. Our problem is that we (RV'ers) have no real organization (Officers, committee's etc) and no mandates. In other words the club has no power over it's members and it is hard to effect any desired behavior changes.

Case in point is the Lancair guys. Their club (LOBO) organized training and certified instructors and completers so that they could get insurance. In the process, THEY DRAMATICALLY REDUCED THE ACCIDENT RATE AMONG THOSE TAKING THE CLUB'S ENDORSED TRAINING. These are the kinds of results the FAA is hoping other "Type Clubs" can also produce. Their problems would be solved without spending $$ they don't have or firing any shots.

Not so easy for us - we have few carrots and virtually no sticks.

Actually, an official RV fly-in convention would be a great start. Set some goals and get going. In general, we are way behind some of the others in this. Some look at this site and think that it is an "official" RV organization and think we have committees and such. Little do they know we are just all on here goofing off at work on Doug's server!!

gereed75 said:

Little do they know we are just all on here goofing off at work on Doug's server!!

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That is somewhat offensive and I would respond if it were not time to leave the office

Steve I agree largely

and I know you are speaking in the good natured social sense, but we haven't accomplished much in the way of safety

Steve Ashby said:

We do more than any type club I know about. The only difference is that we don't have the title of "type club". As far as I am concerned, you guys are family. Can't get any closer than that.

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And the problem is similar to the same one you find in family - it gets a little un-comfortable when you lean over to Uncle Bob and say - "I think you need to excersise more judgement with .... the women you run with.... or how much you drink .... or how professionally you operate your flying machine."

Official organizations can get over that comfort hump. Other clubs are doing it and producing results - they are killing fewer fellow club members. Van has tried to start it with his safety missives, but he is relatively powerless under current "un-organized", un- mandated circumstances.

....... and DAV8R, now that was funny! That's all for now, last one at the office. See ya!!

Type clubs...of necessity

Excuse me for stating what may be obvious, most type clubs have sprung up, or become 'popular' because of a pressing need.
aircraft out of production.... type certificates obtained by TC's ensured parts availability.
Manufacturers out of business, ( oh, gee, can't think of more than... 100!!!)
TC's started up manufacturing so people could finish kits etc.
As mentioned, bonanza AD's and many others with spar cracks or similar afflictions.....
One day, you may not be able to pick up the phone and call Van's....and sure, few of us are going to wear out our aircraft, but where will parts come from?

Perhaps we should be thinking about that kind of progression!?!?!

Seems like we have most of the pieces

of a first rate RV type club already. I enjoyed my time with MAPA, the Mooney Owners and Pilots Association while I was flying the M20 (1992 to 2005).

In fact, we are WAY ahead of the curve with VAF in terms of a primary community vehicle. MAPA had annual homecomings to Kerrville, TX (sound familiar?) with factory tours etc. Type specific vendors displayed their wears (sp?) and type experts gave talks on all aspects of buying, owning, maintaining and safely flying Mooneys. Might be an opportunity here.

MAPA had a safety foundation with type specific flight training events, and type specific maintenance training events. We have this forum for the maintenance "Writ of Common Wisdom" and http://www.rvflightsafety.org/ as a great start for flight safety training. I learned a lot (even after flying my Mooney for several years) from the type specific flight training.

MAPA had annual dues (think it was about $40). We are voluntary, (at least most of us are)...

I know we all like the freestyle nature of VAF and the RV community in general. However, even DR has had to insert some organization occasionally (thank you DR). Maybe we just need some marketing to make VansAirforce the type club it really already is...

As a great man once said.......

......I'd never belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member!

How about our own RV Sun Venture?

When I was investigating what plane to build, I had interest in going to the "big" air show gatherings just to learn about the different planes available. I still enjoy looking at what else is out there, but I am now focused on my 9a. I also love reading and learning about all the other RV?s. I really don?t have much interest in the $120k LSA planes or an airshow of planes I don?t really care about. If I want a circus, I will wait till Ringling Brothers is in town or go to Vegas.

What I would really be interested in is fly in where the RV?s were the focus. If all the suppliers were their showing their latest upgrades, builders help providers could be giving tips and showing how they could help some of us ?beginners?, Van?s could be there with a truckload of ?take home ready? kits, they could show us the real RV 14, and we could all visit with each other and point out how much better we did on our kit than the other guy!

I don?t think it has to be a week long or all the pageantry, but I believe it could be very successful. Maybe even some transition training, classes to learn how to install and use an autopilot or other panel upgrades, target landing, flower bombs, and all the fun stuff. Add some corn dogs, Indian Tacos, and funnel cakes, and it would be a great time for all. I would bet there are dozens of airports that would love to host a RV gathering and could be a big financial boost to the suppliers and the host airport. I would much rather talk to a bunch of RV owners and builders than some guy building a Kitfox. (actually, I love the Kitfox ? it just doesn?t fit the flying profile I want at this stage in my life.)

Maybe there already is Vans fly in that I don?t know about. If there is, maybe it is time to take it to the next level?

club

I know lots of people that like to go clubing why cant we? Can we have have some of them pole dancers too.
Just kidding but it would be nice to have maybe 3 fly-ins in different places each year with members hosting the events.

There are some great thoughts coming out here and I can even think of some ways that would tie into safety (as other clubs have done) and I am also noodling an idea that could make the dollars work for everyone.

To answer Don's original question - Is it time for a "formal" Type Club???? I say yes. There is much that can be accomplished as an organization to add to the enjoyment of our hobby without making it a PITA.

Fly-In

N8RV said:

My, Steve, that was quick. With one post someone connected the obvious dots.

The biggest difference between this intimate online community and a real type club is FLY-INS!

I can see a VAF magazine ... regional fly-ins ... and an annual convention somewhere in Kansas (keeping it centrally located).



(DR, I'm workin' on some job security for you)

Click to expand...

Although not officially a RV fly in, I am hoping and praying the Findlay Air Rally ends up being an RV majority please sign up to support a high school scholarship fund to fund a graduating senior furthering their aviation education.... If you aren't busy July 9th. www.findlayairally.com

ATSB

I was talking with an accident investigator from the ATSB (Australian equivalent of the NTSB) a few months ago, quizzing him about experimental category accidents.

(take-away message: Don't do dumb pilot tricks, don't run out of fuel, and if the engine stops make sure you maintain enough control to end up belly side down)

But anyway, he mentioned how safety can be enhanced by user communities, which can go a good way towards filling in for a lack of manufacturer support in the homebuilt world.

He specifically mentioned vansairforce.net as an excellent example of a user community spreading knowledge and information to enhance safety. And that was before I told him I was flying an RV-6.

So there's your type club right there.

- mark


[ed. Mark, you just made my day. Thank you. dr]

Steve hit the rivet gun on the mfg head.

This is the best "club" already, VAF rocks.

DR as our fearless leader, and president / dish washer for life? Works for me.

National conventions? SnF or OSH, better yet both.

Team RV is the good will ambassadors and PR wing.

We could appoint more members virtual duties, I'll sweep the floors.

As Gary said, there are some good ideas forming. I agree that this website is a tremendous resource, and some would never finish their planes were it not for the availability of VAF.

However, my point is more about the physical gathering of planes and friends. That's one aspect of Oshkosh that we all agree on. It's nice to see the old warbirds fly, some of us like the aerobatics and some enjoy the ultralights buzzing in circles each morning. But we ALL like getting together with fellow RV builders and pilots and admiring each others' planes.

There are fly-ins all over the country (indeed the world) where RVs gather by the twos and threes, amidst the plethora of spam cans. Sometimes the number of RVs exceed any other type, although I've never been to one except Oshkosh. Van's Homecoming is the only fly-in that comes to mind where the vast majority of planes flying in are RVs, which is great for those who live in the Pacific NW or have plenty of time and money to fly to it.

And THAT, my friends, is my point: Is it time for an RV type club? Is it time for an organization to emerge from the combined experiences and friendships forged here on VAF, at Oshkosh and elsewhere, that exists solely for RV builders and pilots?

That's what I read in the pages of gripes about the EAA. The EAA is turning into just another AOPA. Sport Aviation is turning into just another Flying magazine. They're trying to be everything to everybody and the focus is no longer on homebuilders. All true to some degree.

So, what's the solution? Other type clubs have formed, as was mentioned, to ensure future availability of their particular pieces-parts. Others perhaps for exclusivity. Most, however, exist to strengthen the bonds of friendship with others with similar interests, and in particular, in a certain type of airplane.

When Paul P started the EAA, I'm pretty sure he never envisioned the behemoth that it is today, for good or for bad. It is what it is. I doubt that he saw regional fly-ins taking place around the country throughout the year. He started small and let nature take its course.

Imagine a fly-in where the focus is on RVs ... where the vast majority of planes arriving are RVs ... where the forums are all about building, flying and maintaining RVs ... where many of the attendees are already RV buddies whom you've met at Oshkosh on on VAF ...

I think a fly-in like that would be an event without the gripes that I've read about in the EAA threads. It doesn't mean dropping out of the EAA. It means belonging to a separate organization that meets the needs of the group. It means ... a type club.

I agree with many of the comments here. I applaud Don for bringing this up as it has been on my mind as well.

I think we are a type club because:
1) we have 2 type specific fly-ins a year
Land of Enchantment (or what ever the name is now since its in OK)
The Homecoming in Oregon
2) we have this wonderful forum of Doug's
3) we have the frame work of a safety program with RVFlightSafety.com

The missing pieces (my opinion only)
1) no central organizing body (everything is ad hoc-see list above)
2) the sense of community that comes with an official club
3) influencing power a club of this size would have internally and externally
4) the ability to standup squadrons (like chapters)
5) robust training/safety programs
And
6) the beaucracy that comes with all this

The elephant in the room:
That all said I would love to see a club, but I don't see how you could do it right without causing problems with Doug's business model (something none of us wants to do) and stepping on lots of toes ( all those ad hoc things we have belong to different people).

My 2 cents...

I disagree with the statement earlier that we haven't done much to increase safety. I could agree that *measuring* how much we've increased safety in some quantitative sense is next to impossible.

We have many threads recommending transition training, and recommending local pilots in many regions. We've got threads on emergency procedures, egress in flight, and some discussion regarding accident root causes. People come here with questions when they get stuck during their build, rather than just hoping their latest boo-boo is alright and moving on. And owners can ask questions here about the best way to maintain their planes once flying.

I think we'd be in a sorry state indeed if it weren't for VAF, Matronics, and other groups.

There are a lot of great ideas in the posts on this thread IMHO. I was just about to write some thoughts, and then realized that Rob (above) hit the nail on the head regarding the Safety issue - if you really believe that VAF hasn't had a positive influence in the RV safety, then I wonder what you think would? Let's face it, without the rule of LAW, there is a small minority that will always act against their own best interests ( and those of others) simply because they feel that someone else is trying to control them. It doesn't make any difference if it is a formal or informal group. The truth is, I have seen more safety-relevant data disseminated here on VAF, and have seen more good discussions on safety because of it than I have in decades of watching other aviation-related media.

As for fly-ins - they happen! Don, you were part of he a 39+ airplane fly-in to Petit Jean last November - it was great! LOE peaked at close to 200 airplanes one year - that's a lot! Would it be great to get 1,000 RV's in the same place at the same time? Yes, it would...but I sure don't want to be the one that organizes it....and there is nothing stopping someone else from doing it. (The best thing for me about LOE BTW, was that it wasn’t very organized, had no one really calling the shots (except to set up location and a banquet), and was pretty relaxed.

One positive benefit from formal organizations are thing like insurance programs…but frankly, there is generally not a high percentage in cost savings to be had when you go that route anyway.

Political influence? Well, I am not even sure how much TRUE political influence the EAA has, in the big scheme of things (aviation is a very tiny constituency.).

With a formal organization comes officers, policies, control issues, bad feelings, infighting, factions….hey, we can have most of those things WITHOUT a formal organization (if we really want them) , and save the time and effort! Believe it or not, there ar ea lot of folks that already talk bad about DR because they think he’s trying to take over the RV world (I know Doug Reeves, he’s not capable of taking over the world….take away his scooter, and what’s he got?!)

My SHORT answer is that I have been a member of type clubs, and while they were good, they were NOTHING like what we already have in the RV world. Something will come along someday to upset the apple cart of course, but I hate to mess with a winning formula.

I think this is a great thread because it makes us look at what we have, and if we could have more…or if we might have less in the end. Definitely a good question to ask from time to time.

In the end, trying to build a pilot organization is FAR worse than herding cats……give that a try first, and when you have them all lined up singing “pinafore”, then give the pilots a try…

Agree

My words regarding safety contributions of VAF were hasty and poorly chosen. I know that contribution is great, as I have made lots of better judgements regarding operation and maintenance based on counsel given here. Thanks all who take the time to make those wise contributions.

But that is still a long way from the safety improvements that can be made by an organized and directed program.

When attending the first Type Club Coalition meeting, I almost felt like a poser in comparison to what has been done by the more organized type clubs such as Warbirds, Bonanza guys, Cirrus guys and Lancair guys. We had virtually nothing to offer except good intentions.

We just do not have anything as proactive and as well organized and as effective as these guys safety programs. I sense Van knows it but does not feel it is something that he wants or needs to take on (my impression). He will encourage it, but not volunteer to head it.

I would never suggest that we mess with the relaxed social atmosphere of these forums and flyins etc., but safety is a serious business and reducing accident rates (and needless deaths) takes serious effort. An effort that only a good organization can creditably put together.

Just how to do it is the difficult question.

Good idea

I've thought about this for years. When describing to others the sense of community we have among RVer's, I often say that RV's are the Harley of the Skies. This pretty much sums it up and people get it.

The Harley people have the Harley Owners Group. This is offered in conjunction with parent company. http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Content/Pages/HOG/HOG.html I'm going out on a limb but, it is unlikely that Van's would have such an organization.

Take a look to see what the HOG offers. It is extensive from events to insurance breaks, legal assistance etc.... Beyond this there are several Harley related forums similar to VAF.

I think we have reached that point in our evolution where we could benefit from such a club for all of the reasons the HOG exists. We would have a the ability to Lobby for insurance rates, training information and a Lobby with the FAA and other governmental alphabet groups, just to name a few. The real issue is that such an organization requires a ton of work. It is definitely doable!!

One thing I'd like to see that such a group could provide is a 20x20 tent in the middle of the RV parking at Oshkosh as a central meeting place. There could be chairs, tables and coolers with bottle water etc. (We (Jeff) have to sacrifice one RV parking space). Well worth it in my opinion.

VAF is a fabulous resource but it is not an official club. VAF is Doug's livelihood and we support it as it is. We cannot ask him to risk that (nor would he) if a serious affront occurred regarding RV's. Sure the power in numbers is here but VAF is not a lobbying organization as it is structured.

Doug has done an incredible job with VAF. He is our friend and somewhat silent leader in the RV World. I personally support VAF although I fall into one of donation exclusion groups. If a RV Club formed, I'd join in a second. For under $100 a year, being a member of VAF and a club is a very small price to pay in the overall scheme of expenses.

Now, time to get Chad to cut loose of some of our EAA membership money for a tent in the RV parking area!!

Ironflight said:

I know Doug Reeves, he’s not capable of taking over the world….take away his scooter, and what’s he got?!

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Okay - that was awesome.

[ed. I guess I've lost my mojo then, baby. Sold the scooter awhile back! Maybe I should have kept it....since it's the source of my power <g>. dr]​

LOE in October

There have been many comments about having an RV fly-in. Guys, you need to plan on flying to Weatherford, OK in October. Last year we had a small turn out (because of some hefty storms rolling through that weekend) but the year before there were 130 RV's.

more encompassing than another group

One thing that everyone should realise is this "group" has a far wider reach than any other type group I know of. In this thread alone you have had comments and opinions from several continents, (including this one) and this makes it a very powerful forum, with members contributing to discussions from all over the world. The help and knowledge base is international. I have learnt more here about RV's in 5 minutes than I could find on the net with hours of fruitless searching. There are those in other type clubs who wish they had something like this group to turn to when they need information specific to their aircraft.

As far as safety goes, all you need to do is see what happens when there is an RV incident or accident. Within a couple of hours there are posting regarding the events and possible causes. When an accident report is completed the results are posted here by members of VAF. This means that type specific safety information is internationally available to ALL RV builders. I know that I have learnt important safety lessons via this process, things I would never have seen otherwise because I don't live in the U.S.A.

Be aware that this site has a stream of important information that prevents possible accidents too. Every time a member of VAF posts something he / she has seen or done with their own aircraft or a "near miss" they have just had or a malfunction with any part of the aircraft it is instantly sent to all and sundry who, if they have any desire for self preservation, run out to their aeroplane and check they do not have the same problem. Thus there is a potential accident avoided.

So give me VAF as my group. It allows me to part of the international RV scene.

Jim

Maybe

Would it make sense to designate two different locations across the US that would host a three day RV fly-in. It should be no more than 1 days travel. Allow enterprising entrepreneur to put it together, set up exhibits. Instructors/vendors who have specific products or services for RV's would gladly pay to present their products/talent to our community. In the current environment where the number of GA pilots is dwindling most airports would kill to get a major fly-in. The dates could be planned such that they don't conflict with major aviation events or negative weather patterns (example, summer thunderstorms in FL) It doesn?t require a formal organization just a group of good organizers who want the event and have a location that can support the large number of aircraft. If the volume of aircraft is sufficient "they will come". If the event grows over time it will evolve into something that our specific community can use to work on issues like safety and quality. It would also attract those who are looking to join the RV community. Keep the ideas coming?

Paul has a point

that "With a formal organization comes officers, policies, control issues, bad feelings, infighting, factions?". I agree that we don't need any of that if we can avoid it.

The Type Club I am most familiar with is MAPA - the Mooney owners and pilots association. They had some of the problems Paul talked about however they did have some great features that kept many folks involved and attending events. The annual homecoming fly-in was well attended by vendors and members. It was probably a lot of work too. I hope someone was making a little on it for all their trouble.

REGARDING SAFETY, MAPA had a flight training arm which was pretty self sufficient from the overall organization. They held flight training sessions around the country lasting three or four days each as I recall. The format was a day or day and a half of classroom training with groups of 8 to 10 students or so. Lots of type specific stuff, accident analysis, strong guidance to bring those willing to learn up to higher standards. Aeromedical training was included cause most of us were sucking O2. The remainder was flight training by Type familiar CFIs or Double IIs. Think of it as a BFR / IPC on steroids. I got to fly with real Type experts and walked away with much better skills and a brand new BFR and IPC. For a while they did a pinch hitter course (including actual flying in the subject airplane if the student wanted) designed to help the non pilot safely get the plane on the ground. This wasn't cheap as you might guess. The course cost 350 to 400 1995 $ as I recall. Add hotel, maybe a car, and fuel for me and the plane and it easily cost a grand.

More in today's dollars, but really: how else could you get access to the combined experience and wisdom of four or five Type experts, enjoy the camaraderie of a group of safety conscious pilots of your favorite plane Type, and come away current on your BFR / IPC? I really think this could work if the type experts we have in the group are willing, and if someone with better organizational skills than I would pick up the banner.

I?ve read many of the excellent comments on this thread. I agree that with any organization it comes with pitfalls such as those that have been mentioned here. Heck, we all work for organizations where many of these problems already exist in some form or fashion already, and we don?t like it. I rarely ever get involved in the politics of stuff, myself. I just don?t have the emotional maturity for it. I learned how to lead and follow in the military and, frankly, think civilian life would be much better if you all would simply follow my orders.

There are people that VAF doesn't reach, believe it or not. I am finding that there are active builders who rarely take part in discussions here and I am willing to bet that there are lots of former builders happily flying around the skies who haven?t been to VAF since they finished phase 1. Lets also not forget the RVhaters who think they know our planes and us. A type club is an excellent public relations tool.

VAF is a smashing resource! I recognize that DR is our robot overlord and I, for one, welcome that. But a type club can offer so much more. An RV type club could be about promoting and supporting RV aircraft, the building lifestyle and the mutual camaraderie and fellowship that we enjoy.

What can a type club do? I recognize that some of you are building your 2nd or 3rd aircraft. As a less experienced builder I?d like to tap that knowledge. Not just a post on VAF, but face-to-face in an organized fashion. Sitting here eating my ham and cheese sandwich I have thought up ideas like these.

? Weight and balance workshop - Haven?t done this myself, but I can certainly see a place for it.
? Trim Parties - Fly in and get help with troubleshooting / fixing heavy wings, or rudder trim
? How to cut your canopy without shedding tears - Please?this is a perennial point of angst and only those who have done it successfully don?t sweat it.
? Using proseal wisely - Workshop where you make a mini fuel tank and seal it up with proseal learning how to make it neat and tidy and most importantly
? Advanced composites workshop
? Fuel lines ? The most common designs in RV?s, how to make them so they are effective, serviceable and safe.
? Common RV electrical system issue - Maybe get a sponsor to help with something like this
? Successful grass field operations with tricycle gear

Then there are the plethora of opportunities for online sessions with two way interaction between an experienced builders and less experienced builders.

? How I did my baffling and why its better
? LOP vs ROP
? Why do I want to consider prop balancing
? Auto pilots for newbies(hmmm that one sounds familiar )
? Painting your fiberglass cowl; 5 steps to a perfect finish
? How to find AD information about your engine/avionics
? What nobody told you about your first flight
? What nobody told you about flight testing
? Wiring your RV to avoid RF interference
? Why aren?t you building yet?
? What you need to know to pick Lycoming engine for your RV

More and more we are seeing posts from good folks who have purchased an RV from a builder. How do we support them? We should all be interested in making sure that buyers are safe and successful owners. One day someone may want to buy our RV and we want to make sure that they take care of it, fly it safely and have resources to help with the care and feeding of it. Here on VAF we're so focused on bulding and the minutiae of our aircraft. Are 2nd hand buyers getting the help they want? What about international builders? I cant even find an EAA technical advisor here. What's it like to build in South America or Africa where the community is avid but very small?

Ok, I?ve finished my lunch and it is time to go out and dimple my lower wing skins and attach some nut plates. Yes I have been writing this because I am procrastinating, but that doesn?t lessen the fact that a type club is a good idea. I didn?t even get into all the safety issues that we can promote within our community.
Experimental type clubs have to be more technical, more safety focused, more informational and more hands on than certificated type clubs. All the stuff we don?t like about clubs, well, that?s up to us too.

Gil, I think all of your ideas are excellent. But I question whether you really need a type club to accomplish them. Ask any of those questions here, and you'll get the spectrum of replies. Continue on and ask if anyone is doing any of those things right now and would they mind meeting with someone who is looking for some ideas, and i'm sure you'll get a response from the group here on VAF.

The biggest concern I have with creating yet another type-specific group, is that rather than "bring people together", it could serve to fracture the community further. We've already had some people leave VAF and create their own forum. That's two forums to follow. Oh, wait, three, there's the Matronics forums, that I have to admit I haven't been to in a few years since I found VAF. Four, if you count the rivetbangers forum too. A Type Club would probably need a website, and eventually that would mean a forum too. That's five to follow, if you really want to be on top of things... I don't really need the extra overhead, to be honest.

I still think the Vans Air Force name and branding is probably the strongest we have. Maybe all we need is to organize local people as "chapters" or "wings" of VAF. If we all organized under a name that's already got the market penetration and presence in people's minds, we'd probably form a more cohesive group.

Of course, it would take Doug's approval to abscond with his name... [It's not my name ;^). dr]

I wonder if this is how the EAA got started?

Well, since there have been several posts dedicated to reasons why there SHOULDN'T be a type club for RVs, let me redirect it a wee bit.

I agree that many of the benefits of a type club are found right here on DR's hard drive.

So, what is it that's missing? For me, it's the actual physical meeting of people and planes that occurs at AirVulture each year.

Paul Dye mentioned LOE (never been there). Is that an RV-specific fly-in, or just one where a bunch of RVs happen to gather? I went to Petit Jean last fall and had a great time. There were a bunch of RVs. But the main focus was not on RVs. It was a mix of types, homebuilt and commercial.

Other than Van's Homecoming, is there ANY fly-in that, while certainly not restricted to RVs only, is dedicated to the RV community at large? In essence, I'm talking about a Van's Homecoming type of fly-in more centrally located. Or regional ones.

As a business owner, I explain to all new employees that if they have a problem with something, try to work it out. If they try and can't, then don't just bring me the problem -- bring me the problem and some solutions. With the recent spate of gripes about the EAA, I just wondered if one of the solutions to the problem of being pushed to the sidelines at AirVulture would be to form our own fly-in, personified in the form of a type club.

As my wife is wont to say, "No is an OK answer." However, I think there would be some benefit to having at least regional RV fly-ins. Good discussion, good food for thought.

Carry on ...

N8RV said:

snip........Paul Dye mentioned LOE (never been there). Is that an RV-specific fly-in, or just one where a bunch of RVs happen to gather? ..................Other than Van's Homecoming, is there ANY fly-in that, while certainly not restricted to RVs only, is dedicated to the RV community at large? In essence, I'm talking about a Van's Homecoming type of fly-in more centrally located. ....snip

Click to expand...

Yes. I'd say 'LOE' is 95% RV. Here is a picture (below) from a past event.

Back on post #28 of this thread I mentioned there were 130 RV's at the 2010 LOE fly-in at Weatherford, OK. There were a couple of my buddies who showed up that year because they are interested in RV's but they flew in GA aircraft. The airport personnel directed them to park on the other side of the FBO away from the RV's. No doubt about it, the LOE fly-in will meet your need for an RV specific gathering. Put it on your calendar for this year. I know you will have a great time if you show up that weekend.

RVbySDI said:

Back on post #28 of this thread I mentioned there were 130 RV's at the 2010 LOE fly-in at Weatherford, OK. There were a couple of my buddies who showed up that year because they are interested in RV's but they flew in GA aircraft. The airport personnel directed them to park on the other side of the FBO away from the RV's. No doubt about it, the LOE fly-in will meet your need for an RV specific gathering. Put it on your calendar for this year. I know you will have a great time if you show up that weekend.

Click to expand...

All good info, Steve and DR. However, there's more than a little confusion about this particular fly-in, as a quick Google search turned up:

From the EAA's Land of Enchantment website ...

"Not to be confused with the more recent Van's RV Land of Enchantment Fly-Ins. 2012 will be the 22nd Annual EAA Land of Enchantment Fly-In at Moriarty Municipal Airport (0E0)."

The fly-in in OK seems to be a different LOE -- Lots Of Experimentals.

Perhaps the LOE in Oklahoma should be renamed VAFLOE. Or maybe LOEVAF? For you Air Force types, maybe AFLOVE.

As soon as I can track down some reliable info on this VAFLOE fly-in somewhere in OK, I'll put it on the calendar.

N8RV said:

snip....As soon as I can track down some reliable info on this VAFLOE fly-in somewhere in OK, I'll put it on the calendar.

Click to expand...

The LOE (currently 'Lots of Experimentals') will be, as it has been for the past ten years or so if I remember correctly, promoted extensively on this site. In the calendar, and on the front page of VAF in the daily lineup starting about 45 days out.

If you would like to bracket your calendar right now, pencil in sometime in the first two weeks of October, just west of Oklahoma City, OK.

The Bonanza world has almost the exact situation. American Bonanza Society and Beechtalk, a site very much like this one. ABS does the heavy lifing on a lot of issues like spar inspections, type training and a resource with experts on staff. Beechtalk is an amazing group, like this, where safety, training and opinions are openly given. I have been an active participant in both and don't find them to be mutually exclusive. I am not saying that we have to have a type specific group but there are potential advantages. ABS has really helped the Bonanza/Baron community by it's ability to deal with the FAA and offer training through the Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program. I find Beechtalk to be faster/easier, in most cases, to get most answers to questions from my peers around the world. But, if I have a real tough question, I call the type experts. Now, I have sold my Bonanza and am flying my RV-8 but still sneak over to Beechtalk on occasion. VAF is a great resource and clearly, in my mind, makes a difference in the safety and utilization of our amazing aircraft.

John

N8RV said:

In essence, I'm talking about a Van's Homecoming type of fly-in more centrally located.

Click to expand...

I will vote for http://www.airnav.com/airport/KGPH

Just northeast of beautiful Kansas City, MO.

And the fact that it is five minutes from my house has nothing to do with it