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UL Power

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ULPower

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I've been requested by various members to join here so I can post answers to FAQ's.

And yes, we have a new Six Cylinder engine producing 180 or 200HP. The models are UL520i and UL520iS. A picture can be seen on Facebook... just search for UL Power North America.

Regards,
Robert Helms
General Manager
UL Power North America
 
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engine

Your web site does not reflect your statement of having a 200hp engine. How about some prices? If it requires a phone call forget it.
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

ULPower said:
I've been requested by various members to join here so I can post answers to FAQ's.


Regards,
Robert
Click to expand...

Robert, welcome aboard the good ship VAF:D

Good to have another vendor on the forums.

Any details on the new six cyl engine??
 
Welcome Robert..

I saw your engine at Sebring and was impressed by its detailed machine work. Very nice looking unit.

Best,
 
paul mosher said:
Your web site does not reflect your statement of having a 200hp engine. How about some prices? If it requires a phone call forget it.
Click to expand...

Sales is ahead of Marketing. I am telling the world before our Marketing guys even get the web updated. I'm excited.

The list price for the 200HP is $35,000. The first 10 customers worldwide get 15% off. The first customer willing to work with us to do a FWF Kit gets a much larger discount.
 
Mike S said:
Robert, welcome aboard the good ship VAF:D

Good to have another vendor on the forums.

Any details on the new six cyl engine??
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. We will ultimately have 4 different models of the six cyl engine. The first two are the 520i and the 520iS. The list prices are $33,000 and $35,000. They both have the same technology as our current four cyl models:

Direct Drive
Air Cooled
Wet Sump
Multi Port Fuel Injection
Electronic Ignition
FADEC

So in the cockpit all you have is a throttle. No primer, no carb heat and no mixture. Push in the throttle and fly the plane. As a result you always have the proper fuel air ratio so you will be optimized for performance, economy and maintenance (less chance of pilot induced pre-ignition or detonation or over-temp).

Let me know if you have any other questions.
 
Electric constant speed props will work. We have a lot of torque. Several builders with our 130HP engine are investigating the availability of constant speed props.
 
When you mention torque how do your numbers compare against a 200HP angle valve Lyc verses your 200HP engine. If the engine has more torque especially in the 2200 to 2400 RPM range it might be possible to install the engine with a FP prop and lose little if any performance to lyc with a constant speed. It would be interesting to see the numbers. Might make a nice engine combination in a RV 8.

George
 
Wet sump forced lubrication with integrated pressure regulator

Wet sump forced lubrication with integrated pressure regulator?

In one of the videos it states that the plane flies upside down well because of the lubrication system. Does this mean that the UL engines have inverted flight capability built in or was this an add on for that specific plane?

Thanks
 
FADEC is an integral part of our design and one of its most attractive features. You've always got optimal mixture and ignition.
 
pilotmattk said:
Is a hollow crank version in the works, or is that not possible with the design? Electric CS props are slooow!
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I agree about the "slowness." I'm scheduled to meet with several of the propeller suppliers at Sun 'n Fun to see what can be done. We design and machine our own crankshaft so we could probably do a hollow crank but we do not currently have one. Up until now there really was not a need for it but with the larger engines it is a great idea. Thanks.
 
sailvi767 said:
When you mention torque how do your numbers compare against a 200HP angle valve Lyc verses your 200HP engine. If the engine has more torque especially in the 2200 to 2400 RPM range it might be possible to install the engine with a FP prop and lose little if any performance to lyc with a constant speed. It would be interesting to see the numbers. Might make a nice engine combination in a RV 8.

George
Click to expand...

Thanks George. We'll post the torque/power curves on the website with the balance of the data.
 
Mike D said:
Wet sump forced lubrication with integrated pressure regulator?

In one of the videos it states that the plane flies upside down well because of the lubrication system. Does this mean that the UL engines have inverted flight capability built in or was this an add on for that specific plane?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Michael. We do have a wet sump and an integral oil pump with pressure regulator. The standard engine does not have an inverted oil system. We currently have two aerobatic engines. The 107HP UL260iSA and the 130HP UL350iSA. We do not have an inverted oil system yet for the six cylinder engine but we have a lot of interest in such (there are several LSA manufacturers interested because they can get a lot more power with the six but the weight enables them to stay light sport.
 
Welcome to the VAF world!

ULPower said:
...The list price for the 200HP is $35,000. The first 10 customers worldwide get 15% off. The first customer willing to work with us to do a FWF Kit gets a much larger discount.
Click to expand...

Why so expensive for a new, untried engine?

This is something I have never understood about new engine manufactures. They come to play against Lycoming and Continental but cost more. The history of aviation is littered with new engine designs that failed. It seems to me that if someone is going spend their had earned dollars on a new and unique engine, it had better be worth it financially.

Even though this is designed from the ground up as an aircraft engine, the risks, both reliability and financially, are the same as installing an auto engine.

I?m not trashing your engine, frankly I know very little about it, but am questioning your initial marketing and sales practice.
 
Bill -
New engines are expensive because they are trying to recapture the development expense in very few units. ...and in less than 50 years.

Aircraft engines will ALWAYS be expensive because the annual worldwide demand for them is, what, maybe 100 units a year tops?

GM produces 100 units before the 10 AM coffee break and can spread development costs over all those units. Probably 10 cents worth of R&D in a GM auto engine. Probably $10,000 in a new aircraft engine.
 
Jeff,

I don?t question the economies of scale when it comes to mass production. However, if new engine manufactures are interested in ramping up production and getting a number of units out in the field, then they have to make it worth the early adopter builder?s time, effort, and risk to lay down a bunch of money on an untried product.
 
I did a webinar with Robert Helms and Sebastian Heintz just a few weeks ago. If interested, check out the archived presentation here-

UL Power webinar

We had a sound issue that night, so it's a bit choppy, but there is some good info in there.
 
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N941WR said:
Jeff,

I don?t question the economies of scale when it comes to mass production. However, if new engine manufactures are interested in ramping up production and getting a number of units out in the field, then they have to make it worth the early adopter builder?s time, effort, and risk to lay down a bunch of money on an untried product.
Click to expand...

I wish we could give them away. We are doing a 15% discount for the early orders on this model. This model is new but the company has been building engines since the early 70's. The four cylinder equivalent of this engine with Fuel Injection, Multi-port Fuel Injection and FADEC has been in production since 2003. These engines are very expensive to produce and have a lot of expensive components. Keep in mind the engine produces 200hp and only weighs 242 pounds. We are not necessarily trying to compete with other available engines. We are offering something new and I just thought I would make the community aware it is now available.
 
Are the 3.9i (145hp) and 3.9iS (160hp) still in the works? If so, what do you project their price to be?
 
dicel87 said:
Are the 3.9i (145hp) and 3.9iS (160hp) still in the works? If so, what do you project their price to be?
Click to expand...

They are due out early next year. Estimated weight of 200 to 210 pounds.

UL390i = $26,000
140hp
91 Octane or 100LL
15% Ethanol

UL390iS = $28,000
160hp
93 Octane or 100LL
15% Ethanol
 
ULPower said:
They are due out early next year. Estimated weight of 200 to 210 pounds.

UL390i = $26,000
140hp
91 Octane or 100LL
15% Ethanol

UL390iS = $28,000
160hp
93 Octane or 100LL
15% Ethanol
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply - those certainly seem to be viable options for an RV-9/9A. Heck, even your 4 cylinder 130hp model would seem to be a good choice for the 9. The guys at Zenith seem to be very pleased with theirs on the 650 airframe.
 
There are a few builders considering the 350iS at 130hp and 173 pounds for the RV-9. It would make a nice economical plane.
 
RV6

I have an RV6 under construction. However, It's quite a few years from completion.

These engines are very interesting and I hope your business does well. I would love to put your UL390iS 160hp on my project when I get to that point.
 
ULPower said:
There are a few builders considering the 350iS at 130hp and 173 pounds for the RV-9. It would make a nice economical plane.
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That's good to know - is there a firewall forward package developed for the RV-9A/9?

Lycoming (and clones) are tried and true so I would really be interested in what UL believes to be the advantages of someone using this new power plant. I've already read on your web site about the moden features of the engine that allow single lever operations. But if you compared a Lycoming (O-320 maybe), a "clone" equivalent, and your engine head to head, how do those three compare in terms of cost (to include firewall forward accessories), fuel consumption, weight, TBO, support, CS/FP, etc...?

I just think that if you want to attract folks who are willing to venture out from the most common approach to powerplants, that it would be very informational to lay it all out there.
 
cjensen said:
I did a webinar with Robert Helms and Sebastian Heintz just a few weeks ago. If interested, check out the archived presentation here-

UL Power webinar

We had a sound issue that night, so it's a bit choppy, but there is some good info in there.
Click to expand...

Had some time this weekend to listen to this presentation and I have to agree - a very informative session. If any of you who are following this thread have about an hour to spare, I highly recommend it.
 
dicel87 said:
That's good to know - is there a firewall forward package developed for the RV-9A/9?

Lycoming (and clones) are tried and true so I would really be interested in what UL believes to be the advantages of someone using this new power plant. I've already read on your web site about the moden features of the engine that allow single lever operations. But if you compared a Lycoming (O-320 maybe), a "clone" equivalent, and your engine head to head, how do those three compare in terms of cost (to include firewall forward accessories), fuel consumption, weight, TBO, support, CS/FP, etc...?

I just think that if you want to attract folks who are willing to venture out from the most common approach to powerplants, that it would be very informational to lay it all out there.
Click to expand...

We will have a lot more technical information coming soon on our website. I prefer not to make comparisons but rather simply state the design features of our engines and let the buyer or an independent party do the comparisons.

Our engines are a modern design, using modern materials, with computer aided design and manufacturing. In addition, they have advanced electronic ignition, fuel injection and engine control technology. A big result is a much lighter engine producing the same or more horsepower. The installation is very simple and clean. The number one comment from operators of UL Power is that nearly everyone that flys in their plane comments about how smooth it is.

There is not currently a FWF Kit for the RV-9 but it would not take much to complete it. We are looking for a customer willing to work with us on the first installation.
 
Anyone else have an issue seeing the pictures or charts on the 6 cylinder announcement page on the UL site?
 
I keep pondering building a RV8 at some point. The 200 HP engine looks like it might make a great RV8. There is one thing that concerns me however. Looking at the specs all the HP ratings are at 3200 RPM. How many props are available that can run 3200 RPM? Are most fixed pitch props rated to those speeds? It seems most CS props are only rated to 2700 RPM. I suspect the HP is down substantially at 2700 RPM.

George
 
N941WR said:
I don?t question the economies of scale when it comes to mass production. However, if new engine manufactures are interested in ramping up production and getting a number of units out in the field, then they have to make it worth the early adopter builder?s time, effort, and risk to lay down a bunch of money on an untried product.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Look at any Hybrid or full-on Electric car these days. Every one of them is cheaper with a conventional engine. When you run the numbers to compare the net present value of ownership (or total cost of ownership) including maintenance and fuel (electricity), it's a wash, and only if you keep the Hybrid for 10-15 years.

Early adopters *always* pay higher prices for new technology that supplants well-established existing technology.
 
162 hp

sailvi767 said:
I keep pondering building a RV8 at some point. The 200 HP engine looks like it might make a great RV8. There is one thing that concerns me however. Looking at the specs all the HP ratings are at 3200 RPM. How many props are available that can run 3200 RPM? Are most fixed pitch props rated to those speeds? It seems most CS props are only rated to 2700 RPM. I suspect the HP is down substantially at 2700 RPM.

George
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My hartzel is limited to 2600 rpm. Assuming that torque is constant ( a generous assumption) the 200 hp engine will be developing 162 hp at 2600 rpm. My Lycoming 180 hp generates 173 at 2600 rpm.
 
RV7AV8R said:
My hartzel is limited to 2600 rpm. Assuming that torque is constant ( a generous assumption) the 200 hp engine will be developing 162 hp at 2600 rpm. My Lycoming 180 hp generates 173 at 2600 rpm.
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Great point.

Mr Helms - if you are still monitoring this thread what has UL Power's experience been with this?
 
I looked at one of your bsfc curves on the website (smaller engine). It looked quite rich. How close would the fadec put the 200 hp to matching a 200 HP Lycoming running LOP WOT. For a lot of us, FADEC is a hard sell when they aren't optimized to utilize the fuel as fully as a well balanced injected Lycoming (probably below 0.4 BSFC, units pounds, not liters)?

Kudos on a freshly designed aero engine.
 
Sun 'n Fun

Thanks for all the comments and questions. I've been consumed with Sun 'n Fun and delinquent in monitoring this posting. I'll review the comments and respond accordingly.
 
sailvi767 said:
I keep pondering building a RV8 at some point. The 200 HP engine looks like it might make a great RV8. There is one thing that concerns me however. Looking at the specs all the HP ratings are at 3200 RPM. How many props are available that can run 3200 RPM? Are most fixed pitch props rated to those speeds? It seems most CS props are only rated to 2700 RPM. I suspect the HP is down substantially at 2700 RPM.

George
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Hi George,

The reason we state the power at 3200 RPM is because the market we started in (e.g. Light Sport) uses smaller props at higher rpms. You are totall correct and we should focus on more realistic RPM settings on the larger engines. I met with Sensenich and they plan to design some nice props for us (including constant speed props).

Robert
 
dicel87 said:
Great point.

Mr Helms - if you are still monitoring this thread what has UL Power's experience been with this?
Click to expand...

At 2600 the power is about 165hp. The installation will depend a lot on the propeller. Most of our UL350iS customers are seeing about 2900 rpm on take-off and cruising about 2800 rpm. At 2900 rpm the UL520iS is putting out about 185 hp. Having said that, we'll need to see what kind of props we can put on the six to do a valid comparison to other engines.
 
Numbers please

A chart showing weight, horsepower & torque curves, fuel consumption@ various % power outputs ect. for the 160 through 200 hp engines would be very useful for making informed decisions. Russ
 
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