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another paint booth

Steve,
What are you doing about the temp? Is the hangar heated?
Cj

the hangar is not heated except by kerosene and small electric heater. my plan is to heat the hangar for painting piece parts in the booth then move the booth around and paint the fuse, then each wing. for Urethane, warmer is better. if I can't get the temps up then I'm stuck until spring. PPG says if the temp drops below 55F the paint stops curing and will not restart.
 
it seems I can get the booth up to temperature for painting. with the hangar sealed it is easy to heat and it's insulated. a simple idea for stabilizing hanging parts because the fan pressure causes to much part movement. I should be able to paint upside down with dekups but need to verify. note: 1.5 gallon of white PPG Concept paint = $1100.

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outside 40F, part temp 70F. the fans bring the part temp down slowly. dual redundant parallel fans, total CFM ~3000. the fans are located outside the hangar and the ducts exit thru the door.

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good tip, I sprayed the floor with water from a pump sprayer. as far as I can tell, the booth made contaminent free parts. the booth works well.

since I have neighbors who are concerned about overspray I added four black coupons around the hangar to detect any overspay in my hangar. two at the booth and two in the rear of the hangar. these are flat alum pieces painted gloss black. I am prepared for coupon overspray inspection. zero overspray detected after this first round.

I primed the wheel pants. I thought I had prepared these well. nope, several pin holes are showing. I am beginning to believe wheel pants are multi-step process no matter what you do to try to find all of the pin holes.

I am beginning to like painting in the cool season. warm in the booth, cool outside. perspiration time is only in the booth.

and I need better lighting. back to the hardware store.....

devilbiss finishline 4 works great with minimal overspray thereby saving paint... because it's expensive!

one thermostat controlled heater will hold the booth at 70F by cycling for after painting only where cure temp must not drop below 55F for Concept urethane for 24 hrs. it doesn't require much heat. on the inside of the booth inlet filters I layed a piece of plastic. it open when fans are on and closes like a check valve when vents are off.

I leveraged Sam's aux air tank and filter idea and I built a vertical looping condensate piping circuit from black pipe. It pulls a lot of water out.

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lmZiTCS_sm3l7o1AnKPPY1iC3EiRRimykVSP6f3PABLrJIv1GKq6iAqz91MDTaeUhRg0AE3s7Hm_CsTbyBDeXtKf5m8Ekvfov4GHEP4FGs0dbGPyIWj66G0zF1NwBsMWO7l2L3WB0XTvV-33QjXi6Q0V4GpllP7hyCEeP_AnXoEVJz99GG_QYNjSHpr1qSk41l3Q96aTZ9Z3HtNjtiyygM79Zn-qZsQlbH9ameAinPGKTeqRPl_FJ-8vZjMJ0t5UKyjAhJV5q4Mo1IP3EPvn-KUGdR7TeNVYoYx8DuPMk_y6sSoU9S8OKkMPl5HHacpAAZxpNII6JwOh7Uq915e9bS0KgBOVnrAJKyEiLMGnGNCHnVhUSdo8LQxAoF3TA91H6H052-tPtTETZRzSQFKLIlXdBJkyQ14h3O3WjGNIiiM2woxmwuHa_vt69RM3OEdsMyY6pBvoflzLX_pHK6_X7kfx8Me04BbKatUCln0nm_2TXUcEDew2lT90I56AHo92eh8Mnla5iKq2xCUMlYyZyn-Hh2L7q_3IqsMm0jND9g8=w558-h744-no
 
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Steve,

Nice progress. Once you get this process set up, you might consider hanging a shingle and going into the painting business. There are a lot of projects on that airfield!

It may be the photo perspective, but those wheel pants look huge.

$733/gal??? Good heavens, is the PPG paint made from ground platinum?

Best Regards,

-Paragon
Cincinnati, OH
 
Nope. This is it. I'm not going in to the airplane painting business. The paint is super expensive. 2K for all the PPG Concept stuff. I can't think about it because my hand will start shaking when I'm painting. But I have to admit, it's fun and I will be able to say I painted it myself, good or bad. Putting the frosting on the cake.
 
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even worse than I thought. I spent a lot of time on the wheel pants, filling and sanding but to no avail. pin holes galore. forget about sanding them much. just prime and start filling. that's my new thinking.


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new paint booth lighting. sort of a holiday glow.

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Help with pinholes

Hi Steve,

Try putting a little paint on the pointy end of a pin/needle and put that end into the pinhole. This should push out the air in the pin hole and fill it with paint.

Takes a bit of time, but should help.

Cheers,

Joe.
#74466
 
Joe, I'm thinking of trying the drywall mud on these pesky pin holes. The trouble is both are white. I may add some black dye to the mud so I will be able to see it. I am beginning to believe in contrasting colors of primer / filler in order to be able to see imperfections. I will try it on the opposite side.
 
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dry wall filler works. I rubbed it in by hand after trying the squeegee. It sloughs off with gray scotch-brite pad. I added some black dye in order to be able to see if it filled the pin holes.

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these are small pin holes....filled with dry wall compound dyed black. the apply and sand is easier than the red 3M putty I tried. I sloughed it off over a trash can with grey scotch-brite. it leaves a dry clean surface for priming.
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thin coat of PPG K36 sandable primer. pin hole free! I hate pin holes.
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Wished I had tried the drywall mud! The fumes from mixing that putty was awful, and it would set up so fast there was very little time to work it!
 
ok, I like acrylic urethane. two coats. white (the old chevy white color) over white primer. good lighting is needed. it was cold and raining outside but warm in the booth. I sprayed the floor down with water to keep the sanding dust down.

note: the best thing I used for sanding wheel pants was a rolled grey scotch-brite pad (taped to hold the roll) covered with some flexible 320 grit sandpaper. the one that says last 7 times longer from Lowes..... I always wondered, longer than what, but it works well. there are no flat surfaces on a wheel pant.

ready for priming, one coat. then direct to paint, two coats.

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wheel pants are a pain in the A.... but good for learning how to paint
 
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Hi Steve,

Good to see you got a good result with the drywall mud. Wheel pants are looking good!

Cheers,

Joe
 
thanks Joe, I am a believer in the dry wall mud approach. Bag of dry - dry wall mud compound = $4. Goes to show, less expensive can be better. Steve
 
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Steve,

I'm very new here and have read ALL the posts in this thread with great interest. I live in Kansas and have a shop roughly the same size as yours, I'm just starting a 14 and need to begin priming. As it's starting to get cold here (25 this morning), a booth inside my shop looks like a good idea.

After reading the posts, I have to ask a really stupid question. I see that you have run ducts to the outside though the door, If your temps are 40 outside and you want it roughly 70 inside, how are you keeping the booth warm moving all that air? It seems to me that a directly vented booth would get cold very quickly....but it appears to be mainlining temp.

Also, would it be possible for you to post a close up of how you attached the rope to frame?

Thanks,

Fred
 
Fred, the booth does cool when the fans are on. that could be a problem. I try to manage it by preheating the booth with two electric space heaters to about 80F for 30 minutes and I start my two round kerosene heaters (the one with wicks) about the same time to heat the hangar. the hangar is insulated so that helps. the booth inlet air comes from the hangar and is evacuated outside. the booth has a slight vacuum. I switch the electric heaters in the booth off and the fans on when I am ready to enter the booth. I use switches for the fans that are on independent circuits in case one were to fail. before painting I verify the booth is negative pressure by noting the plastic walls are pulling inwards. after painting each coat I wait one minute in the booth to evacuate overspray. after exiting the booth I turn the fans off. then repeat but I didn't use the electric heaters between coats. I need to use a checklist to remind me because when I start mixing paint my mind begins to focus on painting. I practiced the painting motions without using paint to understand how I needed to move. the buckets worked well because you can move them around. I used some duct tape inside the part to secure it to the bucket. this is only the first round of painting and it will get colder so we will see how it goes. as for the attaching the rope, I thought I could have done better. I just looped and tied it to the corners. maybe I'll take a picture of my sorry rope ties for a few laughs and we can come up with a better method. I have seen some of the RV-14 parts. that is going to be a solid bird. Steve
 
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Nice Steve. I have been hesitant to use the drywall mud thinking it could flex and crack out. I will have to give it try after seeing how well it worked for you. Thanks
 
stumbling onward. disaster... the day after the wheel pants dried and still in the booth I thought I should bake them so I turn the electric heaters on. after about an hour the pant next to the heater began to exhibit what I researched was solvent popping. turned the heaters off.

booth 80F
my painting method was primer, wait 30 minutes, then one medium coat Concept, wait 10 minutes, then second coat Concept. it was raining outside and 50F. this is the pant with solvent popping on one side that was next to the heaters.
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this is another couple of pants that look OK, not next to the heat. But not as smooth as when first painted.
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perhaps I didn't wait long enough between coats. I will try a some coupons to test before painting any more Concept. do not bake these parts 24 hrs after painting.

I removed the spray can self etching primer off the tips of the control surfaces with lacquer thinner because when I primed the overall I left one area at the tail, behind the rudder, in self-etching primer and it lifted. self-etching primer under this surface.

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self etching primer washed off and new DPLF and K36 primer applied to tips. I also sanded the trailing edge of the elevator tips to a better looking edge. they were originally very thick.
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First time to try DeKups for painting upside down. It works and I like it. note: the overall aircraft was primed with a loaned citation turbine sprayer that was nice but needed to be reconfigured for spraying upside down and had some drip problems. it was a bottom feed cup and holds a lot of paint so that was good. the DeKups reservoir is not as large.
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James Bond light helmet. Even with the lighting the end is not in sight.
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elevators

it was warmer yesterday and drizzle. I used DT885 reducer and changed from two coats to three coats, one mist coat, one medium coat and one heavy coat with significant wait times in between to purge solvents. it turned out OK but I feel I used more paint than with the two coat method. baked these parts at 65F overnight with electric heater set to low and pointed away from the parts.

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today was cooler and pouring rain. those harbor freight fans do work in the rain. for the vertical stab and rudder I returned to the earlier method of DT870 and two medium coats with 15 minutes purge time to be sure the solvent had time to escape. I like this method better.

primer, the easiest paint to make look good, I am waiting about an hour before paint to be sure the solvents have time to escape. the book says 30 minutes but it's cool weather here but I do bring to booth temp up to ~75F.
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paint
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a good tip, mark the plastic measuring container
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taped a sweat drip guard to the low point of the facemask
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here's what happened, a sweat drop, the risk you take painting horizontal. I soaked the drop off with a small paper towel and recoated with primer and continued on. something to remind me of my painting adventures.
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my alodine is not perfect cover, is it ever? no alumiprep, just dawn and scotch-brite pad. maybe that's why my alodine is not better.
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Alodine process

Steve
How did you Alodine large surfaces? Brush? Spray?
How did you catch the runoff?
How did you rinse?
 
how do you pour paint from a full can and not make a mess? use a homemade plastic funnel and punch 4 holes in the can to let the paint back in. a good tip from Bill Duffy. save the paint, it's expensive.
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I gained another ounce by letting it drain completely
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flap and aileron

primer, wait one hr then paint, the primer always looks good. I always thin it per the manual with acetone. flows really well and hides scratches. amazing stuff.
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paint, 5C outside, DT870, preheat part to 80F, two coats with a little more on the top side, which is the downside in the booth. wait 15 minutes between coats to let the solvent escape. time between coats is the key. to much time and you need a lot of paint, to little time and the solvents don't have time to flash. booth was 75F when beginning the second coat and cooled to 70F by the end of the second coat. I gave the lower side of the flap a half dust coat at the end to see if I could flow it out. it was hanging more vertical than the aileron. it didn't seem to help much and left a satin finish. so my conclusion is that you don't want to do this. put it on wet. hopefully the satin finish will flow out somewhat overnight.

the candles are lit, time to paint!
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satin finish, hopefully this will flow out. vertical surfaces are more difficult to flow out. need to time it just right and put it on wet. I will try to get a picture of this tomorrow to see if there is any improvement.
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parts "baking" overnight at 65F
 
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hangar overspray coupons look completely clean. these are four alum pieces painted black to pick up any overspray and placed around the hangar. I painted them a cardboard box so they have a lot of dirt but no overspray. I went next door to check on my neighbor and see if he smelled any paint. he said nope. I could not smell any paint in his hangar either. I was pleased about that.

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DeKups are proving their worth. I have used this cup three times and just toss the left overs in the frig until the next use, then mix it with new for the next job. same with the urethane. save the paint! whoever thought of this did painters a good favor and allows one to paint upside down to boot!

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Steve,
A couple things:
1. I found the best way to avoid solvent pop is to make sure the previous coat is "glove slick". i.e., spray a piece of cardboard near the end of your session. When you can slide your fingers over the test panel without sticking, you are good to go on the next coat. (the tech sheet probably refers to this)

2. The largest pump that comes in the West system pump kit screws right on a gallon solvent can and you can pump out solvent into your gun or cup or whatever. The pump is fine in the solvent. I've had one on my lacquer thinner can for years.

Good luck, it's a learning experience!
 
Steve,
A couple things:
1. I found the best way to avoid solvent pop is to make sure the previous coat is "glove slick". i.e., spray a piece of cardboard near the end of your session. When you can slide your fingers over the test panel without sticking, you are good to go on the next coat. (the tech sheet probably refers to this)

2. The largest pump that comes in the West system pump kit screws right on a gallon solvent can and you can pump out solvent into your gun or cup or whatever. The pump is fine in the solvent. I've had one on my lacquer thinner can for years.

Good luck, it's a learning experience!

good tips, I think I have one of those unused pumps laying around. I'll put it to use. I'll try the cardboard. Question, does solvent escape faster/better with booth fans on or off?
 
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Shouldn't matter. Use fans to draw out overspray to avoid dieback (dry overspray falling onto the freshly painted surface and making it "sandy". Based on your photos it looks like you don't have that issue, but watch out for it when shooting larger pieces (more paint in the air) Also, aim away from the booth walls with the gun air blast, as you can kick up dust/dried overspray on the walls.

I'm sure you've read Dan H's tips on color sanding and buffing. A painters secret weapon. That's how all the high end cars get that finish. It doesn't come out of the gun that way! (A run is easier to fix than orange peel. Go for good flow out.). Ironically, you may find your best finishes on the surfaces you paint upside down (or nearly so) due to no dieback and better flow out!
 
thx, will read about buffing and it's true, the better surfaces are the lower sides. I place the top side downwards in the booth. Less dirt on the downward side too.
 
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good tips, I think I have one of those unused pumps laying around. I'll put it to use. I'll try the cardboard. Question, does solvent escape faster/better with booth vans on or off?

I'm not sure cardboard would be the best as it will absorb some of the solvents and dry quicker. A scrap of alum. might be better. Just a thought.
 
before, satin finish just after painting because I sprayed a final dust coat on this to try to eliminate some orange peel
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after, one day baking at 65F, a little better
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I don't recommend dust coating with this paint. Put it on wet.

I do notice the paint oozes solvents for about a week because I could not pick up a wheel pant by the tail because it would slip out of my hand at two days after painting. I probably didn't let the solvents escape as well between coats on the wheel pants. after a week I can pick it up by the tail.
 
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Steve what size and model compressor are you using?

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I'll add a couple more aux tanks when I paint the wings and fuse. I think they help. Sams idea.
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no fisheyes using these final clean paper towels, cheaper than rags. hey, they are 50% stronger. that always makes me wonder, stronger that what? it looks like there is some fine print there I need to read.
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added some exhaust vent ends to make the outside connection easier, $4 each. when it's raining outside I can place the fans outside and swing the door open and make the connection inside and then close the door and not get wet. the fans operate on independent circuits in case of a failure. I can modulate the flow using one fan. One fan pulls negative pressure in the booth. When painting, both fans are on. there is no fogging in the booth when painting. I should be able to place the fans outside and connect the vents in less than two minutes.
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more dyrwall compound. I will slough this off over the trash can using grey scotch-brite.
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little pieces that jump around when hung. I needed to stabilize these with my hand on the backside. maybe there is a better method than this. always more orange peel when vertical but not too bad. I should have cut those strips loose at the base to cure in a relaxed state. beginning first coat paint both temp 75F, end of first coat booth temp 69F, beginning second coat booth temp 70F, end second coat booth temp 66F. reducer DT870. air pressure at gun when trigger pulled 21 psi. outside air temp 3C.

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drywall compound works for pin holes.
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hey, the urethane set up in the refrig after three days. I used this container three days in a row with similar at the bottom. my conclusion is you have one day in the refrig to use it again. I mix it with new before using. calculations are this paint cost 1 cent per drop. this is probably $10 worth of paint.

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the epoxy primer on the other hand has lasted up to 10 days in the refrig with no apparent issues.

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dental root canal drill bit for cleaning small air holes in paint gun. try not to think about how long it is.

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first runs. why... because the paint was over thinned and the hung part was jumping around when painting and swung in too close to the gun nozzle. the new paint cups I purchased did not have the correct ratios marked and I had to estimate the reducer quantity. time to buy proper mixing cups to be able to mix it per the spec without estimating. I need a 4:1:2 ratio and used the 4:1:1 ratio and tried to estimate by being slightly less than doubling the last number for the reducer. also, do not mix the paint by weight, using a scale, as I saw in one youtube video by some "internet" guy measuring to the last gram. I tried this once using sandable primer and noticed to my suspicion that the weight measurements did not match the volume measurements. duh. mix it by volume by the spec.

trim tab, darn it.

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the run disappeared, a miracale! I looked hard but I can't see it. there is a GOD! where the **** did it go?

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the flap suffered some damage while scuffing. it slid of the table and went boom on the tarmac... repaired. slick table and dawn. hold on tightly. you can see the barrier clamps now. epoxy primer under the sandable primer. it feathers nicely. no one will ever know, except you. be careful when scuffing the flap, it can get away from you. not so much the other parts. I will say this is the first handling damage I have suffered and it it lingers in the mind. an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....

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how to add a tank, fittings don't agree. need the Russian approach. spin the tank. having the extra air was NICE!
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mixing table view. thinking, how am I going to get that booth over the fuse?
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wet paint! curing at 65F. Do not touch! first coat at 75F, second coat 65F, outside air -3C. DT870 for sure. it's getting colder! bake at 65F overnight. electric heaters pointed away from the parts. it's like painting with plastic. put it one wet and walk away but come back for pictures. my paint floor is going to ****. good thing I'm almost done with it.

another flap and aileron
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after two days in the refrig. forget it. you have one day to use Concept in the refrig. another $10 wasted, I'm going to go broke! tomorrow I will show the horror of not using the DeKups paint filter! .... this blew some partially cured paint onto the bottom side of the parts at the first pass in a 5 in diameter area. I kept painting. after the next day it wasn't as bad as I feared. it sort of melted in. I can easily sand the nubs and buff it at some point but not now.

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on a rainy day a week ago I noticed I was getting some water at the air nozzle when blowing off the parts. I added a 25 ft loop of hose before the vertical condenser on the wall and that solved the problem. I place a couple wet towels on top of the hoses to help cool the air before the vertical separator. In Winter, condensing water in the lines is a major problem. Note: I have the vertical piping, a water separator at the vertical piping exit and another micro filter at the aux tank exit.

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Steve,

Feeling the pain right now, and all I have done for the last four days is a single stage Acrylic Enamel from NAPA on my cowl after some glass repair / reinforcement. I keep telling myself, "It's a working plane, not a show plane!" but, even then, I get miffed at the mistakes and blemishes. Kudos to your efforts and reports.

Tip: for the wrong ratio mixing cups, a metal ruler with millimeter markings works to get things correct, just measure the height of your '4 parts' and do the math for the missing ratio. Also makes for an easily cleaned stir stick.
 
agree, painting is one of those things where you can get sucked in to making it perfect. I also tell myself, this is not a show plane. as I move along I noticed I started raising the bar. I think that is the normal tack.

I forgot my camera two days in a row. intersection fairing, spinner and a bunch of little pieces painted. the intersection fairing came out great. I think the spinner with be fine, will see tomorrow. I must say painting it is like Christmas once you get you footing, every day or so you get to see a new gift and say wow I did that.

I bought a box of 100 PPG mixing cups because that was the smallest quantity they would sell. The bad thing about painting is that you make a lot of trash. I need to work on that.
 
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spinner and intersection fairing. I was cautious not to put too much paint on these for a fear of a run. I thought about painting the spinner inverted on the way home. the perimeter decreases because of the cone shape and if you have a run it could become worse. it worked out for me and was easy to rotate the spinner while painting. next time I would do it the same but use a stronger rod thru the spinner holes because the .042 wire is not strong enough and will bend at the holes. for the final and second coat, the booth temp was 65F, I used DT870 reducer.

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look ma, no pin holes!

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parts are stacked everywhere. I'm pushing this hangar to the limits.
 
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bake at 65F overnight.

Thanks Steve for a great set of posts! I've had mixed luck with painting primer/interior colors (getting better!) Kudos for attacking the outside! If I can find a big enough space and put enough filters/water and oil absorbers in line, I might try it too.

BTW, "bake"; I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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(I joke that KHAF is 65F +/- 5F all year long -- almost exactly right. Gotta love living next door to the world's largest heat skink/source.)
 
Thanks Steve for a great set of posts! I've had mixed luck with painting primer/interior colors (getting better!) Kudos for attacking the outside! If I can find a big enough space and put enough filters/water and oil absorbers in line, I might try it too.

BTW, "bake"; I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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(I joke that KHAF is 65F +/- 5F all year long -- almost exactly right. Gotta love living next door to the world's largest heat skink/source.)

well, it is supposed to be 0C here tonight so I suppose "bake" is relative.

horizontal stab, bigger parts, booth temp 75F at first coat, second coat 70F. it didn't seem to flow as well. perhaps for the bigger parts use a higher temp reducer like DT885 but overall I am pleased with it. usually it is better the second day after flowing out. painted upside down. sprayed the floor with water.

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"baking" at 65F.... I said it again! electric heaters pointed away from the parts.
 
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