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Safety at non towered airport

danP

Member
I want to share this event that occurred today while I was taking off from KMWL.
I rent a hanger at this airport Mineral Wells Tx. And I am very familiar with the Area. Well today my wife and I loaded up the Rv to head to Monroe KMLU. It was like all the other departures we have done in the past, the WX called for calm winds. So I taxied out and decided to depart on runway 13 . I announced my intentions on the frequency and held short for departure, I looked both directions and listened for any other traffic. All was clear and proceeded to depart on runway 13. Now let me explain the runway environment. Runway 13 runs uphill and at the top it goes down about 500' now I'm full power and just as my rv lifts off I see another plane and my Dynon tell me traffic !!!! Another plane was running down the runway heading toward me. I pulled up turned to the right and seen this Grumman fly past me. The other plane made a comment on the radio that he made his radio call that he was departing. I did not hear any radio transmissions and I advised him that I also made the appropriate radio calls . He said he did not hear anything but what sounded like someone broke squelch . About that time the FBO operator made a radio call stating that he hear both of our transmissions. The only thing I can think of is that he was on the other side of the hill and we could not hear each other.. The good thing about this event is that we had a good outcome from a bad situation.
I will from this time forward from any airport were you cannot see the other end will take every percaution before departing. Anyway I hope everyone that reads this and finds themselves is this situation will be very carfull.

Dan Peeler
RV7A
 
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Did either pilot announce their intention to taxi from parking to runway whatever? I would think if the FBO guy said he heard both of you that he would of came over the radio and said something about the situation. Glad you are both safe!
 
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Calm wind runway?

Is there an established calm wind runway? I don't see any listed in the A-FD. How about a tetrahedron?
It seems like a good idea for all non towered airports to have a listed calm wind runway.
I see all the procedures listed are for runway 31.
Glad it all worked out. Good lesson and thanks for sharing
 
In my region the only mid-air collision I know of occurred with two airplanes both in the same circuit, same direction and both were talking on the radio. One was on final, the other turned base on a shorter final and they flew into each other and everyone died. There were 1 or 2 passengers involved as well, sadly.

What I take away from this is that the radio will only go so far to keep you safe and this is another example. The day was saved by the pilots watching where they were going.

The only way to really keep yourself safe is to use the mark 1 eyeball and don't assume that those around you won't screw up. I've screwed up and found myself where I shouldn't be as well. We've all done it.

When arriving at an airport it is so important to be looking outside, not heads down fiddling with an efis or ipad or a checklist. My flight school did not emphasize this enough I don't think. I learned it from the old airline and military guys.
 
years ago on an x/c to the Bahamas, an RV owner at mineral wells loaned me his hangar and tools so I could fix my alternator, which took several days, turned out the first replacement was defective in the box. he was an airline pilot and had to leave for a flight. I forget his name, but not his trust and the favor he gave me.
 
Same Thing here...

I was at Gulf Coast and a bunch of RV's flew in for lunch. One of the guys wanted to go for a ride in the -9, not a big deal. There was very light winds and everyone was using 35. We taxied up to the end of the runway, did our run up, listened, and announced. Just as we were about to lift off we realized a Rocket was landing on 17. We quickly side stepped the runway. Lucky for us, it was a long runway.

Here's the thing, both of us transmitted, but neither heard the other. Maybe because we weren't expecting opposing traffic.

Also, all the prior traffic was using 35, as we were and here comes a guy using the opposite runway. Later, when we spoke, (No hostility from either of us, just two concerned pilots trying to figure out what happened.) we couldn't understand how this happened. I guess it is possible we both transmitted at the same time, it is possible.

Neither of us saw the other until we were both on the runway at the same time.

While radios are great, not all airplanes have them. So, relying on them is a false sense of security. We must "Look and Listen", in that order. (Runways with a hump in the middle add a real challenge to that "Look" thing.)
 
Dan,

Thanks for the writeup and I'm very glad this was only a "teachable moment"

Is there an established calm wind runway? It seems like a good idea for all non towered airports to have a listed calm wind runway.

My experience has been it's not as easy as it could be to update the AFD with corrections to required data and harder still to add optional information.
 
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I suppose everyone has a story- this one reminds us that just doing the obvious is not always enough. Right turn avoidance was the last good procedure to yield a good result.

I was on a long x-cty and landed at Mariana Fl. I got fuel and taxied back out to the end of the tarmac, and thought I would just do the run up there rather than on the taxi way to the runway and hold short line. I turned right to enter the taxi way and for what ever reason, looked to the left. A glider was landing on the grass along my side of the runway and was about 80 yards to the left at 8 feet agl. I had announced taxi and intention to taxi to active. It spooked me and before moving looked back, only to see another, this time over the centerline. That was one of many lessons learned with luck on my side.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Couple of weeks ago I flew over the KCJR to see the flight of 20some T6s depart for their planned flight over the Pentagon, etc. Turn out they were going to NOTAM close the airport right after they departed so if I didn't want to be stuck there I'd need to depart before they did. The fact this was not in accordance to the published NOTAM is an irritating fact that is irrelevant to the story.

Well the T6s started taxing out enmasse to Runway 22 to do their warmups. A C182 that was going to act as a photo ship had preceded them to taxi to Runway 4 so I proceeded to follow him down the taxiway (winds were dead calm and it was agreed the photo ship and I would depart from that end to avoid the mass confusion of 20 T6s doing runup in a confined space.

I'm sitting in the runup area as the Cessna pulls to the hold-short line doing, well, my runup. Cessna announces his intention to depart RWY 4 after the T6 Flight lead told us they would be at least ten minutes giving us plenty of time to do our thing at the other end. Just as I see Cessna start to pull forward I reflexively key the mike and yell, "Cessna HOLD Short, Traffic on Short Final". Brakes heavily applied just as a Stearman crossed the threshold not 10 feet AGL (or so it looked to me).

All ended up fine. Stearman (there for the airshow) taxied in to park, Cessna departed after thanking me for my call. I departed just beating the rain that canceled the T6 flight for that and the next day (success had on Sunday).

Would the Stearman have hit the Cessna if he had pulled out? Don't know. Stearman would probably have never seen him and it looked like it would have ended very badly.

You just can't assume anything...
 
Zaon Pirep

Which model do you have bob and does it see all transponder traffic etc ?

I'm not Bob but I have a Zaon XRX in my Glasair so I thought I'd respond too. It sees a lot of traffic, some that I never find, but it also misses a lot of traffic too. Today on a short flight back to Torrance from Corona it missed the Thorp that chased me on takeoff (and caught me...how did that happen??), an airliner passing above me and 2 planes and a helicopter within 3 miles of TOAall inbound at the same time as me.

It's a great instrument and for $1,000 you can't go wrong but it won't alert you to every aircraft out there, even if they have a transponder and it's on. That's my experience.
 
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The Zaons are unfortunately not manufactured anymore. You will note that the OP said his Dynon audibly called out traffic however- via his transponder's TIS traffic or his ADS-B receiver. So there are other options that will help you spot traffic.
 
I wouldn't blindly take the runway at a controlled airport just because the tower cleared you.
Always look for traffic, someone may have been cleared in and using the wrong runway.
Towered or not, see and avoid!
 
Glad you all are safe. I really feel like non towered fields need to have designated calm wind runways. this would eliminate people just doing whatever when the wind is not blowing.
 
Glad you all are safe. I really feel like non towered fields need to have designated calm wind runways. this would eliminate people just doing whatever when the wind is not blowing.

Not necessarily. Today I went into an uncontrolled field with intersecting runways. 3 aircraft were using the wind-favored runway; one was practicing cross wind landings on the intersecting runway. I pity any no-radio aircraft trying to navigate thru this.
 
Not necessarily. Today I went into an uncontrolled field with intersecting runways. 3 aircraft were using the wind-favored runway; one was practicing cross wind landings on the intersecting runway. I pity any no-radio aircraft trying to navigate thru this.

We routinely use 08A's 18/36 and 9/27 at the same time. NORDOs use a conventional 45 entry to either left downwind, spacing visually. Been doing it since, oh, 1943. Never a problem, except when somebody thought avionics use would sweep the air clear ahead of them.
 
Guilty! Of making multiple radio calls while I'm in the pattern. With my head on a swivel. Talk all you want in the pattern as far as I'm concerned, unless you're stepping on someone else. Heck, make a couple of calls inbound with position and altitude reports. Anything that helps me know where you are. Reference to landmarks is even better. Don't worry about protocol. If you use the famous (or infamous) "any traffic please report", I'll answer you pronto. As a non-IFR pilot, the "... RNAV approach to runway 36 ..." doesn't tell me much about your location, but at least I know you're out there.
 
In addition to making a pre-taxi announcement while still on the ramp as previously mentioned, I advise my students to request a radio check in that same transmission to help assure they are on the correct frequency and the volume is set. While you will only get a reply if someone else is on the frequency, it is one more step in accident prevention.
 
Tower

I wouldn't blindly take the runway at a controlled airport just because the tower cleared you.
Always look for traffic, someone may have been cleared in and using the wrong runway.
Towered or not, see and avoid!

A few years ago at PHX, mid afternoon, before the rush hour. Cessna ---cleared for takeoff. Cessna(me) I think I'll wait for the 737 on short final. Total pandemonium in the tower. This happens more often than most think.
 
A few years ago at PHX, mid afternoon, before the rush hour. Cessna ---cleared for takeoff. Cessna(me) I think I'll wait for the 737 on short final. Total pandemonium in the tower. This happens more often than most think.
That's why I like low wing, bubble canopy planes...much easier to see approach traffic when you're perpendicular to the runway. Not to mention soooooo much better in the pattern. :)
 
Few weeks ago I headed up on a short XC to Sanford Maine. KSFM. Non-towered.

About 10 miles out I tuned in their CTAF and there was one guy in the pattern shooting touch and goes. He woudl announce he was on downwind for 7

That's all.

Dind't say left..or right. Yes there's a preferred pattern for 07 but who knows if he was following it?

So when I got within 5 miles I called up and asked him if it was a left or right downwind. He answered and then left the pattern after his next landing.

Doesn't pay to make assumptions.
 
Which model do you have bob and does it see all transponder traffic etc ?

XRX.

And to be clear, a Zaon is not a substitute for your eyes; it's a backup for your eyes.

It does a pretty good job. It's not very good on distance (I'm under the MSP Class B at an airport that's under the arrival, 6 miles out). It picks up transponders fine; it has a hard time accurately telling you how far away it is.

Of course, it doesn't pick up the yahoos without transponders.
 
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In addition to making a pre-taxi announcement while still on the ramp as previously mentioned, I advise my students to request a radio check in that same transmission to help assure they are on the correct frequency and the volume is set. While you will only get a reply if someone else is on the frequency, it is one more step in accident prevention.

Perhaps it is. Or, perhaps this exchange ties up the frequency, preventing or blocking an important transmission by an aircraft in flight. As a rule, unnecessary radio chatter detracts from both safety and efficiency.
 
Chatter

Perhaps it is. Or, perhaps this exchange ties up the frequency, preventing or blocking an important transmission by an aircraft in flight. As a rule, unnecessary radio chatter detracts from both safety and efficiency.

Plus one on this. It is annoying in the boondocks, very dangerous is areas of high traffic and multiple airports on the same frequency.
The other issue is student pilots. I would much prefer that they skip a call or two rather than crashing base to final because they focused on the radio. For my students about to solo or post solo, I allowed one call for landing: Cessna ---left downwind 28. Hang up the mike and don't touch it again until you clear the runway. As they got close to the Private checkride I would gradually expand on this.
The call xxx taxiing to runway 32 is SO annoying, and all too often indicates a lack of proper training.
 
My pet peeves are 1)some pilots make too many calls (minor annoyance) and 2) they use their full call sign each time (major annoyance). Shorten it up after the first time to the last three digits/letters and only go full on if by chance someone with the same three last characters are in the area.
 
Call Sign

My pet peeves are 1)some pilots make too many calls (minor annoyance) and 2) they use their full call sign each time (major annoyance). Shorten it up after the first time to the last three digits/letters and only go full on if by chance someone with the same three last characters are in the area.


Or do it the Oshkosh way- single Cessna left downwind 28, or Cherokee or Bonanza or whatever. Who cares what the N number is??
 
The call xxx taxiing to runway 32 is SO annoying, and all too often indicates a lack of proper training.

Or it could mean that the instructor actually pulled out the far/aim and discussed table 4-1-1. I understand that there is radio courteousy, but an annoyance to you may help another a/c that you're not aware of.

Receiving those calls gives me a better picture of the current situation. Hearing a gentleman taxiing to 32 is going to give me a different SA picture if I'm about to enter a downwind for 32 - especially if he does not acknowledge me.

Two sides of the opinion coin, I guess, but it goes against all of my training (a lot of which I consider pretty good) to be observing aircraft movements in silence. I apologize in advance if we're ever at the same field. I'll be the guy announcing my intentions.
 
I will second the last post. I am one of those who will tell you I am at the SW hanger to 34 via alpha and Charlie. And yes I like to know who is moving even on the ground and where.
I have had one episode on the ground at KMEV where I took off one way while another was taking off from the opposite end. Same problem, a little hump in the runway, both of us made calls. I was using the preferred no wind runway so I was in the right and could have been dead right! We saw each other after short roll and both of us turned off and discussed it in a very civil manner. He was an out of Towner and did not know local customs.
The other was similar, friend had near miss. Bonanza and RV flying left and right patterns to opposite runways. passed very close on downwind.
Be very carful and assume some one is going to screw up!
 
Perhaps it is. Or, perhaps this exchange ties up the frequency, preventing or blocking an important transmission by an aircraft in flight. As a rule, unnecessary radio chatter detracts from both safety and efficiency.

I couldn't agree more!

The guy on the ground can not hear how busy the radio is in the air and these calls make it near impossible to make timely calls.

My three other peat peeves is leaving off the type of aircraft, calling five mile final, and blasting in the pattern at cruise speed. My eyes aren't so good as to be able to read N1234 when entering the pattern. By saying "Cessna" or Cherokee helps other pilots figure out if the call is coming from the first of three planes or the tail end Charlie.

The FAA has determined that you are not in the pattern if you are more than three miles away. Also, a "five mile final" is a straight in approach and is not recommended.

Two weeks ago, I had an RV go 10 feet under me while we were both talking to the tower. I was #1 for landing and he was supposed to follow me. I had put out all my flaps on base and he went under me doing well over 150 knots and I was doing 60. Slow down before entering the pattern! There could be a 60 MPH no radio Cub in the pattern and you will run him over. (Or a 60 Kts RV-9 that you don't see.)
 
Radio calls

Or it could mean that the instructor actually pulled out the far/aim and discussed table 4-1-1. I understand that there is radio courteousy, but an annoyance to you may help another a/c that you're not aware of.

Receiving those calls gives me a better picture of the current situation. Hearing a gentleman taxiing to 32 is going to give me a different SA picture if I'm about to enter a downwind for 32 - especially if he does not acknowledge me.

Two sides of the opinion coin, I guess, but it goes against all of my training (a lot of which I consider pretty good) to be observing aircraft movements in silence. I apologize in advance if we're ever at the same field. I'll be the guy announcing my intentions.

AIM is not regulatory. Using the LA area as an example there are at least five airports with the same CTAF frequency. Calling for radio checks when not necessary, calling with taxi intensions, COMPROMISES SAFETY by routinely blocking other transmissions from airborne aircraft.
 
AIM is not regulatory. Using the LA area as an example there are at least five airports with the same CTAF frequency. Calling for radio checks when not necessary, calling with taxi intensions, COMPROMISES SAFETY by routinely blocking other transmissions from airborne aircraft.

Fully understand about the AIM vs. FAR. And I understand and appreciate your example. As you said, the AIM is not regulatory, so totally within your purview to follow or not as you deem necessary.
 
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AIM is not regulatory. Using the LA area as an example there are at least five airports with the same CTAF frequency. Calling for radio checks when not necessary, calling with taxi intensions, COMPROMISES SAFETY by routinely blocking other transmissions from airborne aircraft.

Count me in the category of calling inbound, downwind, base, final and clear of the active. I think what compromises safety is not making calls in the pattern, but making loooooong-winded, meandering calls any time.

"Ah, anytown traffic, this is Cessna 1 2 3 4 5 we're about, uh, 5 miles southeast, we'll be coming in on the 45 for, ah ah, left traffic left downwind for ah runway 12...we're at ah about three thousand five hundred feet descending...anytown".

I hear this *all the time*. How about

"Anytown traffic Cessna 12345 5 southeast 3.4 inbound 45 for 12 anytown"
 
Count me in the category of calling inbound, downwind, base, final and clear of the active. I think what compromises safety is not making calls in the pattern, but making loooooong-winded, meandering calls any time.

"Ah, anytown traffic, this is Cessna 1 2 3 4 5 we're about, uh, 5 miles southeast, we'll be coming in on the 45 for, ah ah, left traffic left downwind for ah runway 12...we're at ah about three thousand five hundred feet descending...anytown".

I hear this *all the time*. How about

"Anytown traffic Cessna 12345 5 southeast 3.4 inbound 45 for 12 anytown"

Flyer - IMO you hit the nail on the head. I was going to add this to my original post, but can't stand typing on the iPad. This is exactly my stance. Too many push to think folks, or guys who take 10 minutes per call. I understand about discretion - nothing works 100% of the time - but being military, I'm a huge fan of standardization. When I get to the terminal environment I can expect similar operating standards. However, I understand the congestion issue. Again, different viewpoints I guess. I choose brevity AND the recommended calls.
 
One BIG safety feature is to run with your landing light on. White airplanes are not easy to see. You can't see them one mile away, head on..... and that's only seconds before contact.

It would be much safer if everyone would run landing lights full time. But as with motorcycles and then cars, that will take a while before it is built in. Till then, we need to flip the switch to make it happen.

If nothing else..... Please turn it on within 20 miles of an airport.

b.t.w. Who was it that figured white aircraft would be easy to see in the blue/white sky?
 
I really feel like non towered fields need to have designated calm wind runways. this would eliminate people just doing whatever when the wind is not blowing.

But what defines "calm wind?" Around here, most think anything under 5kts is calm, but some folks would prefer to land into any wind (3kt, 5kt, 25kt), so there can still be some potential confusion.

Greg
 
One BIG safety feature is to run with your landing light on. White airplanes are not easy to see. You can't see them one mile away, head on..... and that's only seconds before contact.
It would be much safer if everyone would run landing lights full time. But as with motorcycles and then cars, that will take a while before it is built in. Till then, we need to flip the switch to make it happen.
If nothing else..... Please turn it on within 20 miles of an airport.
b.t.w. Who was it that figured white aircraft would be easy to see in the blue/white sky?

A friend of mine who flies for a Major Airline tells me that; "Above 10,000' we have all the lights on. Below 10,000' we turn the rest of them on!"
 
One BIG safety feature is to run with your landing light on. White airplanes are not easy to see. You can't see them one mile away, head on..... and that's only seconds before contact.

It would be much safer if everyone would run landing lights full time. But as with motorcycles and then cars, that will take a while before it is built in. Till then, we need to flip the switch to make it happen.

If nothing else..... Please turn it on within 20 miles of an airport.

b.t.w. Who was it that figured white aircraft would be easy to see in the blue/white sky?

Excellent point. The primary reason I installed wig wag LEDs in the LE.
 
Zaon traffic device

Some Pilots using the now defunct Zaon traffic device might benefit from re-reading the ops manual. The Zaon DOES NOT detect or display all transponder equipped aircraft. The only a/c it detects (and not very accurately or at all in my experience) are aircraft with an operating transponder AND that are being interrogated and relying to that interrogation. It is a passive device. Since I am at home I don't have the manual with me. But tomorrow I will post the exact language verbatim. For some reason all the pilots I have talked to with Zaon did not realize this.

I junked my Zaon because it gave many false alerts, depicted traffic in wrong position etc. I decided it did more harm than good for me prompting me to scan the sky in the wrong direction.

I fear some pilots are spending to much time looking inside the cockpit at devices which is creating an increased risk of close calls or midairs.
 
Interesting to hear different opinions. I am sorry if using my radio on the ground offends anyone. I really appreciate hearing clear and concise position reports, including taxi information.

My personal pet peeve: pilots who mumble or speak so quickly that I can't understand what they are saying. Position reports help no one if you can't be understood.
 
A friend of mine who flies for a Major Airline tells me that; "Above 10,000' we have all the lights on. Below 10,000' we turn the rest of them on!"

That's what I do.
I'll even turn the wheel well lights on if there is a lot of traffic around.
 
Some Pilots using the now defunct Zaon traffic device might benefit from re-reading the ops manual. The Zaon DOES NOT detect or display all transponder equipped aircraft. The only a/c it detects (and not very accurately or at all in my experience) are aircraft with an operating transponder AND that are being interrogated and relying to that interrogation. It is a passive device. Since I am at home I don't have the manual with me. But tomorrow I will post the exact language verbatim. For some reason all the pilots I have talked to with Zaon did not realize this.
I junked my Zaon because it gave many false alerts, depicted traffic in wrong position etc. I decided it did more harm than good for me prompting me to scan the sky in the wrong direction.
I fear some pilots are spending to much time looking inside the cockpit at devices which is creating an increased risk of close calls or midairs.

Not quite sure why anyone wouldn't understand this feature. It's very common in all low cost units. As you say, it's in the manual and was in all the ads. They even called it a PCAS. i.e. Passive Collision Avoidance System.
I've been flying with the MRX for quite a number of years and find it to be reliable and pretty accurate. Distance is based on transponder power and therefore shows airliners, who have higher power transponders, closer than they actually are.
It's designed to be an extra alert, and not a replacement for the Mark I eyeballs.
 
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Hit the nail on the head

One BIG safety feature is to run with your landing light on. White airplanes are not easy to see. You can't see them one mile away, head on..... and that's only seconds before contact.

It would be much safer if everyone would run landing lights full time. But as with motorcycles and then cars, that will take a while before it is built in. Till then, we need to flip the switch to make it happen.

If nothing else..... Please turn it on within 20 miles of an airport.

b.t.w. Who was it that figured white aircraft would be easy to see in the blue/white sky?

Cant understand either why white is the predominate color of airplanes. When I hear an airplane overhead and look up, I am always amazed at how hard it is to see white airplanes. Seems to me white is the worst color in a blue sky. it maybe the best for fiberglass or on airplanes where heat is a problem. I read on these forums several years back that the cub yellow was picked by the army air corp because it was the most visible. When my RV gets flying, I think it will be yellow.
 
Visible colors

I also fly RC (radio control models) and some years ago the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) did a study on what colors were the easiest to see in the sky. The three colors that were most visible, in order, were orange, followed by yellow, then white. This was assuming a blue sky. If you have a cloudy white sky then white does become a problem. I too plan to paint my RV12 as soon as it is finished in some kind of a yellow/white paint scheme. From my experience with RC, dark colors do not show up well in the sky.

Bob
 
FAA/FCC has enough discrete frequencies available to assign to small airports. We have 760 chan radios by law. They can't be bothered. Airlines are not there so no push. Frankly the Feds couldn't care any LESS about your safety at a non tower airport. Sad but true.
 
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