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New Door Idea

Phil

Phil

Well Known Member
I woke up with this idea this morning and thought I?d throw some fresh meat into the lion den and see if I can?t start a really big cat fight. I hope I do. :)

The idea is to use a 12v Solenoid Operated Dead Bolt lock. It would be installed in mid-fuse decks. The bolt will point up and ultimately penetrate into the base of the door. The bolt operates when 12v is applied to the solenoid.

With a very tiny bit of wiring logic, the 12v can be routed through a micro-switch. That switch is used to detect when the interior (or exterior) handle has rotated X degrees (from fully open) toward the closed position. I?ll use 20 degrees for example.

- Get in and pull the doors down.
- Rotate the door handle to close the main door pins.
- From 0 degrees to 20 degrees the bolt is retracted.
- At 20 degrees the bolt engages to secure the bottom of the door (before the main pins have even started through the Nylon or Aluminum blocks).
- The bolt stays engaged until the handle is rotated back and the switch opens at 20 degrees. By having the bolt engage before the pins enter the door frame, it protects against those who are concerned with bumping the handle accidently.


A couple of fail-safe modes and emergency points.
- Should you need rescued from someone on the ground, it can be operated with the regular exterior door latch. They just twist the door latch and the micro-switch disengages the b
- Should you have a 12v power failure, the bolt will retract when the power is lost.
- Should you have an accident that rips the wire from the solenoid, the bolt will retract.

I can?t think of a failure mode that would cause a problem assuming you use a bolt that extends with 12v and retracts with 0v ? not the opposite.

One of my concerns were damaging the door by extending the bolt without having the door in the correct position. Meaning the bolt would miss it?s hole and it would push up and damage the bottom of the door.

After a little research, I found this lock has a safety circuit in it. The force of the bolt deployment is really low and if the bolt can?t extend into a recess, the 12v is removed. Saving the switch and any damage that could occur. Keep in mind it?s designed to deploy into a female recess and then the bolt is designed to operate in shear. The bolt isn?t designed to punch holes in wooden door frames ? or our RV-10 doors.

Okay, now that I?ve shaken this fresh chicken in front of ALL the lions, have at it. I?ve got a Houston RV builders group lunch to go to?. 


http://tinyurl.com/ybktr2s


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I think you might be on the right track but here is another idea.

Keep in mind; I built a -9 and not a -10, so my knowledge of the door and its latches is limited to a few flights in a friend's -10.

Can you modify the latch and add a third pin that goes down into the horizontal door seal? Maybe design it so that engages first, thus making sure the two horizontal pins engage fully. This would give you three locking pins rather than two.

Just another thought...
 
It sounds like a workable solution for normal usage-----I am a bit concerned about in the event of an accident that the door frame getting a bit tweeked, and the latch pin getting caught between the now misaligned holes----would the spring be enough to retract the latch pin???

Of course, the same could be said of any latch system.

Personally, I think the idea of a third pin, driven by the existing door latch mechanism is a preferred choice. I prefer mechanical actuation vs electrical. And the unit shown requires continuous power, which concerns me.

Would it work, I think so. Would I use one, probably not.

But this is the kind of thinking that makes progress happen.
 
Front Hinged

Has anyone given much thought to a front-hinged door? I much prefer a door that floats open a couple inches rather than one that rips off and hits the tail.
 
Great, let the ideas flow....

from what I've seen so far I like the mechanical 3rd pin actuated by handle turning youtube video the best so far. (3 pin mechanical lock, vs current 2 pin mechanical lock)

Regards
Rudi
 
I like that one too, Scott.

I had another idea last night that is parallel to Sean's.

Per the plans, our door handle runs the bar/pins horizontally into the door frame.

Sean introduced the concept of converting the horizontal movement into vertical movement.

Now visualize a capital "H" on it's side. Our door handle can operate the center section of the "H". This is the vertical Axis in the door. Then we could use Sean's solution to convert the vertical movement into horizontal movement. This horizontal movement would drive two pairs of pins, upper and lower.

Make sense?

Phil
 
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Door pin

Interesting idea.
The big difference between Phil's idea and Van's fix is the vertical and horizontal geometry of the latch mechanism.
Notice the undercut in Van's latch? It acts to hold the door in and down.
A bolt straight up is ineffective in holding the door down since the door moves
up and out at about the same rate.
This dead bolt would only be effective if both the front and rear pins are properly engaged in which case it is not needed.
The latch acts as a sole mechanism to hold the door shut, although I wouldn't bet my pennies on it.
 
I like the center pin into the F-1015C mid cabin deck idea operated by the same door handle lever.

The center pin will not engage into the mid cabin deck slot hole if the geometry of a closed door fore and aft pins is also not engaged in their respected holes.

Maybe I don't understand the problem really... is it possible to lock the door handle lever all the way down, but the pins did not engage even though the door geometry looks closed? OR is it that the passengers only 1/2 way push the door handle lever down not engaging the pins?

Kind Regards
Rudi
 
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I have a feeling that it happens when the lever inside is in the locked position but the pins are actually outside the fuselage. My feeling is also that if the door alarm is set up properly it will not easily happen.

Phil, This whole thing has got me thinking as well ( yes I do think sometimes ;) )and I was rolling around the idea to somehow utilize an after market central locking system. My wife's car locks all the doors as you go through 20 kmh. Likewise can one do something similar, or as you suggests with a micro.

The pivot point idea looks good, but not if you have a Vans handle.
 
RudiGreyling said:
'''''''''', but the pins did not engage even though the door geometry looks closed? OR is it that the passengers only 1/2 way push the door handle lever down not engaging the pins?

Kind Regards
Rudi
Click to expand...

Rudi, the rearmost pin was not in the hole but outside the airplane. The handle was down and locked.

The rear of the door is hard to see from the pilot's position and also the passenger's.

What has been recommended, and what I do, is reach around, behind the passenger backrest and physically push on the rear of the door and then push outward, at the front, of both doors, to my satisfaction and the three lights are out.

Best,
 
could you

have this type of tie in to vans latch, vans latch uses a up/down action to operate just like this one does. then you could get rid of the speed break vans put in, but have the better latch.

john

ScottSchmidt said:
http://www.nwacaptain.com/door_center_latch.html

In another thread this was introduced. It appears that a system like this could be added to our current system with very little engineering.

Very nice drawings too! Some thought went into this.
Click to expand...
 
center door pin

While the integrated center door pin is an elegant solution it does not hold the door down and is most certainly not self latching.
It adds complexity and a third pin where none is needed except for those with bulging doors. Installing a vertical pin whether activated from the bottom or top does not address the problem, pilots not closing the doors properly.
Van's latch fix attempts to aid in that direction, by having the door latch when you close it, without turning the door handle to lock it, thereby hopefully keeping the door from opening in flight.
It's a lot like cessnas, you can slam the door shut and its latched then you lock it.
 
Another Idea?

Currently intalling my latches, I am working on attaching a (backwards) "L" of steel to the rear horizontal rod, extending downward. The (backwards) "L" will extend down thorugh a slot in the door threshold (both fiberglass and aluminum)

The "L" will move aft as the latch is closed and the rear rod moves aft. This will engage underneath the aluminum door threshold. If this works it will solve my concern that Van's design or any other I have seen thus far can fight the tendency of the door to be sucked outward by low pressure and flex its way clear of the Vans "solution".

Input very welcome....just my "non-engineering trained":confused: idea..........any input for improvement??........!!
 
jtrollin said:
have this type of tie in to vans latch, vans latch uses a up/down action to operate just like this one does. then you could get rid of the speed break vans put in, but have the better latch.

john
Click to expand...

Now you're talkin!!
 
rvamateur said:
Currently intalling my latches, I am working on attaching a (backwards) "L" of steel to the rear horizontal rod, extending downward. The (backwards) "L" will extend down thorugh a slot in the door threshold (both fiberglass and aluminum)

The "L" will move aft as the latch is closed and the rear rod moves aft. This will engage underneath the aluminum door threshold. If this works it will solve my concern that Van's design or any other I have seen thus far can fight the tendency of the door to be sucked outward by low pressure and flex its way clear of the Vans "solution".

Input very welcome....just my "non-engineering trained":confused: idea..........any input for improvement??........!!
Click to expand...

Do you have pictures, they speak a 1000 words? :confused:
 
hand is ok? i guess

Auburntsts said:
Side note - Is your hand OK?
Click to expand...

I still have 10 fingers, they are just missing some skin. I might of lost a fingernail on my ring finger for good. Other issue is I have a fus kit coming to my house in a week or so and still need to move my wings to storage as well as unpack the fus when it gets here...

we will see how I make that happen.
 
pierre smith said:
Rudi, the rearmost pin was not in the hole but outside the airplane. The handle was down and locked.

The rear of the door is hard to see from the pilot's position and also the passenger's.

What has been recommended, and what I do, is reach around, behind the passenger backrest and physically push on the rear of the door and then push outward, at the front, of both doors, to my satisfaction and the three lights are out.

Best,
Click to expand...

Thanks Pierre,

So if the rear pin was outside the aircraft the door geometry is out (and the rear proximity sensor not actived :confused: ) and then if a center pin was present going down into the Cabin Mid Decks this center pin would not engage, meaning you would not be able to lock down the handle? What is the typical travel on these pins between engage and disengage?

Anycase it is good we are throwing around options here, I would like to see some more pictures of the guys are doing or thinking of doing...

Regards
Rudi
 
Door Ideas

This is what I installed when I finished the plane two years ago. I have not tested it and I hope I never do, but I think it might save you if you took off with the rear pin not engaged. It is a barbed 3/8 " SS pin mounted to the rack assy. with 3 #10 screws that go all the way through the door. The pin engages a bracket mounted to the door sill. You have to have the hole in the bracket just right so that the door can move as it needs to when latching. When you get it fine tuned the barb catches the edge of the hole and you have to push the door down a little before you can open it. I need to put a placard on the door with that instruction. If you ended up upside down you wouldn't be able to open the doors anyway. That's why I made the baggage door so it could be opened from the inside. The lights are super bright flashing LED"s.

3179swn.jpg


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Columbia Doors?

Just wondering... the Columbia (aka Cessna Corvalis) has the same top-hinged door arrangement as the RV-10, and you don't hear much about door issues with those airplanes. What is Columbia/Cessna doing differently to latch their doors? Could any of their ideas be borrowed?

Lancair400-025_JFR.JPG


After getting to log twenty or so hours in an RV-10 recently, I find myself already contemplating building one after the 7 is done. But, I can't see myself building one without a serious look at the door latching mechanism first.

mcb
 
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Modified?

ScottSchmidt said:
http://www.nwacaptain.com/door_center_latch.html

In another thread this was introduced. It appears that a system like this could be added to our current system with very little engineering.

Very nice drawings too! Some thought went into this.
Click to expand...

All you would have to do to solve the "holding it down" problem would be to use an "L" shaped piece instead of a pin. The "L" shaped piece would rotate from inside the door down into the door sill where it would latch in place under the aluminum substructure, perhaps doubled or holding onto a strong bar. You would need to securely anchor the rotating mechanism in the door to resist the strong upward pull, but that could be no different than what Van's SB uses. You could place it in line with the standard horizontal pin mechanism, so it all happens at once when you rotate the door handle (from inside or out). It would be harder to build into flying airplanes, but very possible for those not yet built.

I've seen this type of latch before, now if I can just remember where... I'll be exploring something like this when I get there.
 
Columbia/Cessna

Looking at that Lancair/Columbia/Cessna picture, it looks like a two pin arrangement just like the RV-10 . . .

TDT
40025
 
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