general 'airmanship' - are we on the same page?

I read the forums a LOT, comment probably more than I should, but hey, you're free to ignore me, right?

a bunch of recent posts have me thinking...which is a good thing, right?

these travel stories are beautiful, awesome, inspiring etc. I just hope nobody gets the wrong image from them:
1. we fly, we drink a lot of beer, eat bbq, fly the next day to the next place... even if it's marginal.
2. we go places in a gaggle, take lots of air-to-air photos, and zoom down to see the pretty things, and wave at the people.
3. a lot of 'first flights' are accompanied by photos of the ship in flight, and video of it landing, taken from real nice & close up.

Is it just me, or are we breaking a bunch of rules here, and nobody is saying they are either illegal, or dangerous.

I think there are a lot of really smart people on the forum, and I'm just trying to learn; be sure you are setting a good example.

Really? ....

Same page...

I also read a lot of forums, but I do not recall any that talked about drinking beer and flying at the same time.

I do read about formation flying, written by folks who are training and carded to do so. I also read about the process of getting trained/carded here.

Zooming down to wave at folks? Not sure I ever read that.

I'm sure folks are different here, but in all my reading, I get the undertone that this can be a safe way to have fun, and I feel much better about the pilots here than I used to read about on the Cessna site I was on.

Just MHO.

CC

I think I know what Perry means.
I have seen postings featuring the pilot having a beer at a mid-trip lunch stop.
I have seen posts stating that low flying was fun and absolutely safe. I'm sure the poster meant that he felt the risk was acceptable. But one can see how it sets a bad example for an inexperienced pilot (and there are a lot) who now thinks it's okay for him to do it, too, since 'everyone does it'.
Bottom line is that there should be a disclaimer that what you read is someone's opinion, and should be given no more weight than their choice of efis or primer.

The most common rules violation I see is someone advertising, on a public forum, that they will pay for a ride from X to Y. Personally I don't care, but some FAA inspectors certainly do.

You do know you're not on a Zenith or Cessna forum. Right?

I can't say that #2 and #3 really resonate with me, but I will comment on #1.

The FAA says that you cannot fly within 8 hours of consuming alcohol. My personal standards are higher, and I hope all of yours are too. If I'm going to fly and consume alcohol in the same day, you can **** well be sure the flying happens before the drinking.

Lionclaw said:

I can't say that #2 and #3 really resonate with me, but I will comment on #1.

The FAA says that you cannot fly within 8 hours of consuming alcohol. My personal standards are higher, and I hope all of yours are too. If I'm going to fly and consume alcohol in the same day, you can **** well be sure the flying happens before the drinking.

Click to expand...

+1
I make sure the hangar door is closed before the refrigerator or cooler door opens.

flyboy1963 said:

1. we fly, we drink a lot of beer, eat bbq, fly the next day to the next place... even if it's marginal.

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He doesn't say anything about beer with mid-trip lunch stops. He mentions drinking beer and eating, then flying the next day. I would presume if someone drinks "a lot of beer" and eats BBQ, they're probably going to get a good night's sleep. The regs say no flying within 8 hours (my personal limit is 12 hours) of consuming any alcohol, and "under the influence" is considered .04% BAC. Obviously everybody absorbs alcohol and gets rid of it at different rates, but I really don't think having 2 or 3 (or 5) beers with dinner is cause to not fly the next day.

flyboy1963 said:

I read the forums a LOT, comment probably more than I should, but hey, you're free to ignore me, right?

a bunch of recent posts have me thinking...which is a good thing, right?

these travel stories are beautiful, awesome, inspiring etc. I just hope nobody gets the wrong image from them:
1. we fly, we drink a lot of beer, eat bbq, fly the next day to the next place... even if it's marginal.
2. we go places in a gaggle, take lots of air-to-air photos, and zoom down to see the pretty things, and wave at the people.
3. a lot of 'first flights' are accompanied by photos of the ship in flight, and video of it landing, taken from real nice & close up.

Is it just me, or are we breaking a bunch of rules here, and nobody is saying they are either illegal, or dangerous.

I think there are a lot of really smart people on the forum, and I'm just trying to learn; be sure you are setting a good example.

Click to expand...

So a wonderful trip write up/ post is once again NITPICKED for any possible "perceived" infraction!
Give me a break!
Thread title "General Airmanship- are we on same page"
Thankfully most are NOT on the same page! The FUN POLICE are making themselves known once again. To show my disdain for such people, tomorrow I intend to fly a formation aerobatic practice session, put my plane in the hangar, leave the door OPEN, and wait for my local FSDO inspector and RV8 builder and Pilot, to come over and have MULTIPLE beers. Then, knowing my metabolism, and knowing that I will not have a blood alcohol level near .04 percent, I will DRIVE home!!!!

I feel obligated to respond since it may be my recent trip report that spawned this thread. Please keep in mind that these reports do add just a bit of theatre to keep it interesting. Some pictures are taken just to put certain characters on the hot seat of ridicule.

You also have to keep in mind that some of the pics are not taken by zooming down. They are taken with a rather expensive camera with a pretty nice lens used for getting close to the subject matter. My air to air pics are usually taken when my autopilot if flying the plane and many other pics you see are taken by a passenger.

I believe most people on this forum are very intelligent and can read between the lines. Some assume more risk than others but we all assume risk when we throttle up to take off. The only way to minimize risk is to sit on your couch with a helmet on. I choose to assume calculated risk and live life.

Yep, thank God it isn't the Cessna forum, but we do love Cessna drivers. -<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-

Cessna stars

Yup, I have had a few Cessna stars implanted on my forehead too. I am guilty of being a Cessna driver, and worse, a Cessna mechanic.

Jon Thocker, you're my hero. 100% agree.

BTW, I may have had a beer when I was building my airplane as well. Does that mean it doesn't fly straight?

jthocker said:

So a wonderful trip write up/ post is once again NITPICKED for any possible "perceived" infraction!
Give me a break!
Thread title "General Airmanship- are we on same page"
Thankfully most are NOT on the same page! The FUN POLICE are making themselves known once again. To show my disdain for such people, tomorrow I intend to fly a formation aerobatic practice session, put my plane in the hangar, leave the door OPEN, and wait for my local FSDO inspector and RV8 builder and Pilot, to come over and have MULTIPLE beers. Then, knowing my metabolism, and knowing that I will not have a blood alcohol level near .04 percent, I will DRIVE home!!!!

Click to expand...

Don't know yet!!

Sid Lambert said:

John Thocker, you're my hero. 100% agree.

BTW, I may have had a beer when I was building my airplane as well. Does that mean it doesn't fly straight?

Click to expand...

Well Sid, we don't know yet. I'm not finished with it

as to taping and fotographing first flights, i see absolutely no issue with that!
not even inflight. just let the first flight aircraft/pilot do its thing and let the chase unobtrusively take pictures from safe angles not interfering with the flight test plan.

never ever, have i read a trip report that had the alcohol and flying mixed up. there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying a cool blonde at a beach after landing on a caribbean island if that's what you refer to.

also, the whole point of owning an RV is to have fun and going places once in a while. that doesn't mean it should be unsafe but certainly the acceptable risk to the occupants is different compared to the required and expected safety level of shuttling 200 non-aviation people from A to B in all weather conditions.

so no, we are not on the same page.

where i agree is about not busting rules (at least those that make sense) and keeping the risk to uninolved third parties low.

now go out and have fun flying!

To those who would claim that the trip report somehow implied or encouraged unsafe acts or illegal actions - two points.

One, we fly these airplanes for fun and sport primarily. We are not hauling people or freight between pt A & B. We're flying for fun, excitement and adventure. So for one to attempt to impose a single benchmark of safe operating parameters is simply invalid. Each and every person flies for a slightly different reason and in a slightly different manner. In other words, every person's risk/reward "number" is different. Mine is probably higher than most. zero to ten, mine's probably a 7. I really enjoyed the type of flying shown in the trip report - but I'd have tossed in some rolls and a little dogfighting on the way. I'm guessing Perry's is more like a 2 or 3.

Two, I believe we may be experiencing a bit of the "unknown unknowns" phenomena. I would argue that those who have never sought out training or flight experience involving these higher risk/reward activities may not know just how safe or unsafe they truly are. In other words, you know not what you're talking about since you either don't have the training and/or ability. Consider this when you say that Sean Tucker flies in an "unsafe" manner. Oh, but Sean Tucker is different! So, how do you know what skill set that aviator who just showed you a trip report holds?

Jon Thocker, you are my hero too!

Not only are me and the OP not on the same page, I don't speak that language.

jthocker said:

So a wonderful trip write up/ post is once again NITPICKED for any possible "perceived" infraction!
Give me a break!
Thread title "General Airmanship- are we on same page"
Thankfully most are NOT on the same page! The FUN POLICE are making themselves known once again. To show my disdain for such people, tomorrow I intend to fly a formation aerobatic practice session, put my plane in the hangar, leave the door OPEN, and wait for my local FSDO inspector and RV8 builder and Pilot, to come over and have MULTIPLE beers. Then, knowing my metabolism, and knowing that I will not have a blood alcohol level near .04 percent, I will DRIVE home!!!!

Click to expand...

Where's the LIKE button?

I am following TKATC since I too feel that our recent RV trip north may have contributed to the impressions of the OP.

While the RV's on that trip along with their pilots had a spectacular time, I would attribute some of the "trip artifacts" to friendly ribbing and teasing.

For every pilot (sans out cruise director) the primary goal of the recent NS trip was training and education. It was a long cross country, border crossing, customs, over water, potential weather, mix of runways, detailed planning, multiple airplane trip. Everyone was there to learn something from the others. We were all teachers and students in one capacity or another.

At no time, during that trip did I feel I was at risk. My pilot (me copilot) were constantly evaluating the plane, the conditions, and our options. All along the route, the planes were relaying useful information to keep us on schedule and safe.

Having two pilots aboard the airplanes meant shared workloads and gave one the opportunity to pull out some impressive camera gear for picture taking. (creative editing helped a lot too).


With all of that said, every pilot must establish their own thoughts on safety. If / when I see something I feel may benefit from a conversation, my action is to talk with the person one-on-one. It may be I was not fully aware of their abilities or purpose. It may be they did not see if from my point of view. This too is part of teacher / student : student / teacher.

I keep learning. I hope my fellow pilots will keep teaching. thanks !

My take

I love the trip reports. I know many of the pilots who write these and I know they do not drink and fly. Even if it was legal, they would not do it because it is just too risky and I imagine is not much fun flying while intoxicated. So I trust thier judgement and that they are playing safe. However, what I do miss is all the pictures of the locals. You guys tell me you fly to the bahamas and there are no pretty girls on the beach? come mon, i aint that dumb. So show us some of the locals and other tourists and I will get the plane done much quicker

jthocker said:

So a wonderful trip write up/ post is once again NITPICKED for any possible "perceived" infraction!
Give me a break!
Thread title "General Airmanship- are we on same page"
Thankfully most are NOT on the same page! The FUN POLICE are making themselves known once again. To show my disdain for such people, tomorrow I intend to fly a formation aerobatic practice session, put my plane in the hangar, leave the door OPEN, and wait for my local FSDO inspector and RV8 builder and Pilot, to come over and have MULTIPLE beers. Then, knowing my metabolism, and knowing that I will not have a blood alcohol level near .04 percent, I will DRIVE home!!!!

Click to expand...

+1

Thank you for saying this... Just like this!

jthocker said:

So a wonderful trip write up/ post is once again NITPICKED for any possible "perceived" infraction!
Give me a break!
Thread title "General Airmanship- are we on same page"
Thankfully most are NOT on the same page! The FUN POLICE are making themselves known once again. To show my disdain for such people, tomorrow I intend to fly a formation aerobatic practice session, put my plane in the hangar, leave the door OPEN, and wait for my local FSDO inspector and RV8 builder and Pilot, to come over and have MULTIPLE beers. Then, knowing my metabolism, and knowing that I will not have a blood alcohol level near .04 percent, I will DRIVE home!!!!

Click to expand...

Of course, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone was insinuating that drinking after flying was wrong in any way.

Are you referring to Stan? I think he mentioned he was interested in building when he inspected my plane up in Dayton. Glad to hear he's building if it's him. Super guy, very friendly, and he gave me lots of great info/advice.

This reminds me of a joke....

"Two Northwest pilots walk past a bar....

...come on, it could happen!"


Sorry, that's all I got

Real danger!

I'm not sure if Perry is referring to the group that paid us a visit, but the only risky act I witnessed was when they all headed to the community bunk house after consuming large amounts of homemade baked beans.

Paul Tuttle said:

I'm not sure if Perry is referring to the group that paid us a visit, but the only risky act I witnessed was when they all headed to the community bunk house after consuming large amounts of homemade baked beans.

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Paul, we kept the window open for ventilation and we all obeyed the no smoking sign (even though it was only posted in English). The risk was mitigated. Btw, do you share your baked bean recipe? They really were pretty darn good.