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Camguard powerpoint

I think we can all agree that "Vlad" doesn't need camguard :D

It seems camguard is for those who don't fly 500+ hours a year!!!

Although, maybe he needs one of those donut type seat cushions ;)

Thanks for the post though, I was thinking about camguard too.
 
Half the problem

Ron,
A dryer cures only half the problem,
the other half is acid.
1 Gallon of water produced in the combustion cycle of burning 1 Gallon of gas???
Someone please explain that to me.
 
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Camguard Snakeoil?

Isn't anybody bothered by this statement?

Page 10 on the powerpoint presentation mentioned above.

1 Gallon water produced by 1 Gallon of fuel burned ???

I am just asking for clarification.
 
Ernst, I have heard that before, but the thing that is not usually made clear is that it is water vapor, not liquid water. And, is it refering to a gallon of vapor, or how much vapor would be generated if a gallon of water totally evaporated.

Still, I do not know if the statement is correct or not.

Burining a hydro carbon adds oxygen and other gasses, and produces various mixtures of stuff, HoH being one of them.

We need a good chemist to jump in on this one;)
 
Combustion of gasoline produces water vapor that can mix with your oil and make your engine susceptible to rust. Whether 1 gal of fuel equates to 1 gal of water produced really doesn't matter much, but I have no reason to doubt that. Don't see how it equates to a snake oil claim regardless.

Erich
 
Camguard works by enhancing the film qualities of the oil which prevents components of blowby from causing varnish and rust. The gentleman who formulated Camguard originally used the same formulation for Exxon Elite since he formulated that oil as well. So basically it is an supplemental version of Exxon Elite.
 
rocketbob said:
Camguard works by enhancing the film qualities of the oil which prevents components of blowby from causing varnish and rust. The gentleman who formulated Camguard originally used the same formulation for Exxon Elite since he formulated that oil as well. So basically it is an supplemental version of Exxon Elite.
Click to expand...
I'm using Exxon Elite there for I am using Camguard already,,, good to know.
 
Mike S said:
Ernst, I have heard that before, but the thing that is not usually made clear is that it is water vapor, not liquid water. And, is it refering to a gallon of vapor, or how much vapor would be generated if a gallon of water totally evaporated.

Still, I do not know if the statement is correct or not.
Click to expand...


What part of: 2C8H18 + 25O2 --> 16CO2 + 18H2O don't you understand? :D

Yes, the main byproduct of gasoline combustion is carbon dioxide and water. And yes, the water is in vapor (i.e. gaseous) form, considering the significant heat of combustion of gasoline.

I could show the work need to convert the above idealized balanced equation into gram molecular weight equivalents, but it's easily googled, and I think you get the idea. :)
 
The water vapor produced by combustion is mostly expelled out the exhaust at a very non-condensible 1200+ degree F.
Some small amount of water vapor, combined with other exhaust products seep past the rings and exhaust valve guides, where they come in contact with the inside of the engine, and the oil.
If the oil is a nice 185 F or higher, most of these gasses should pass right out the crankcase vent as a vapor.
You get worrysome corrosion when the remaining vapor (ladened with lead salts and acids) has a chance to condense in the engine and remain there for some time. Presumably, your engine is still fairly hot when you shut it down, so most of the last bit of water vapor could still be expelled by it's vapor pressure.
The additives in your oil neutralize these acids, if you have been changing that oil when you are supposed to. I suppose you could dip a PH test strip in your oil to make sure it hasn't gone acidic.
Given enough time, good oil fails in tight places like bearing journals, also the steel cylinder and iron cam near the crankcase vent, where moist air can enter when the atmospheric pressure fluctuates.
Bummer. Why don't you save yourself some money and go fly? :rolleyes: Follow the engine manufacturer's reccomendation and fly long enough to dry out the inside of your engine.
I like the idea of Camguard or other additives when they could reasonably benefit.
The presentation had good pictures, thanks for posting it.
 
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Forgetting the combustion process for a minute, if you did some rough numbers on 1 gallon of fuel at peak or LOP rates, thats 2.68kg of fuel and 40kg of air.

Air is roughly 1.25kg/m3 and a m3 holds about 6-10 grams of water per cubic metre.

That means on average something like 330ml of water injested from the air for every gallon of fuel burned. Or 1 gallon of water for 11-12 gallons of fuel.

Unless I got my units of measure wrong :eek:
 
RV10inOz,
Now that sounds more like it, 330mml per 1 Gallon,
or somewhat more than a 1/4 pint per gallon of fuel burned.

According to their sales literature:
Making people believe that you pump a gallon of water through your combustion chamber for every gallon of fuel burned is what ruins their credibility and is the reason I call it Snakeoil.

 
N427EF said:
RV10inOz,
Now that sounds more like it, 330mml per 1 Gallon,
or somewhat more than a 1/4 pint per gallon of fuel burned.

According to their sales literature:
Making people believe that you pump a gallon of water through your combustion chamber for every gallon of fuel burned is what ruins their credibility and is the reason I call it Snakeoil.
Click to expand...
No, I believe you are missing the point. RV10inOZ said "forgetting the combustion process for a minute..." and was just talking about the ADDITIONAL water brought into the cylinders from the intake air. He was not discounting the original premise of the combustion process generating water vapor that was also layed out in the chemical equation earlier. Embrace the snake oil!:)
 
Stay with me

Stay with me for one more round please.
After I put my ignorance on display I am still confused as to what exactly we are talking about.
When someone says generating 1Gallon of water I assume that to be liquid.
(sales literature)
Is someone talking about water vapor, in gallons? Could someone just exactly tell me how much liquid water is generated by burning 1 gallon of gas.
No formulas please, gallons or liter.
And BTW I am a sucker for snakeoil, I use Lenkite (avblend) and MMO.
thanks.
 
Liquid water

Exactly 0 gallons liquid water generated by the combustion process. Too hot in the combustion chamber.

In the crankcase though, it is another story. What ever blows by the rings has the potential of condensing to the liquid form there. Especially when you first start the engine and all of the internal surfaces are relatively cold.

Water is also slightly soluable in oil, so it is not so simple as simply keeping the crankcase temp above the dewpoint and venting it overboard. Some of the water vapor will be dissolved in the oil, even at 180F.
 
Ernst, There is no single quantitative answer to your question. All the water produced by combustion will be in the vapor phase initially due to the high temperatures. A small portion of that vapor will mix with your oil, and if your oil is below the boiling temp of water, it can condense and exist as liquid water.

I think we may be getting hung up on the volume issue here when the point is that there is a pathway for water to enter your oil and that can lead to rust. There are ways to minimize it, but it's likely always there in small amounts. Also, keep in mind the power point presentation is likely a set of notes for a talking presentation, so we are not viewing the full presentation. I doubt the presenter ever intended to suggest that there is a gallon or more of liquid water in your oil sump at any time.

Regards
Erich
 
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erich weaver said:
Ernst, There is no single quantitative answer to your question. All the water produced by combustion will be in the vapor phase initially due to the high temperatures. A small portion of that vapor will mix with your oil, and if your oil is below the boiling temp of water, it can condense and exist as liquid water.

I think we may be getting hung up on the volume issue here when the point is that there is a pathway for water to enter your oil and that can lead to rust. There are ways to minimize it, but it's likely always there in small amounts. Also, keep in mind the power point presentation is likely a set of notes for a talking presentation, so we are not viewing the full presentation. I doubt the presenter ever intended to suggest that there is a gallon or more of liquid water in your oil sump at any time.

Regards
Erich
Click to expand...

DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed
 
Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?
 
n761tj said:
DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised. :)
 
DanH said:
Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?
Click to expand...

I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

I do not believe in shock cooling. There is a case to be made for shock heating when applying full power to cold cylinders. I don't believe raising the EGT from 1350 to 1500 degrees (CHT's change little) when doing the "Big Pull" does anything at all.

Ed
 
Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?
 
David-aviator said:
Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised. :)
Click to expand...

Avblend is a single component, thin mineral oil. It was created in the 1950's.

Some people swear it helps with valve sticking. If it works for you great!

I have tested it thoroughly for wear and corrosion protection and it only hurts performance because it thins the oil reducing the oil film thickness. The thinner oil is what gives them the claim of better fuel economy. It evaporates in about 5 hours in most aircraft.

Camguard is comprised of 11 high performance additives and is 100% active with no diluents. We offer demonstrable proof of performance in rust and corrosion protection, deposit control (the only product to do so), wear reduction and seal conditioning/protection.

Avblend sponsors Sean Tucker, which is fine.

It took Mike Busch 2 years to test Camguard for himself. He is not on our payroll.

You should look at both companies data and judge for yourself.

Ed
 
rocketbob said:
Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?
Click to expand...

Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed
 
n761tj said:
Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed
Click to expand...

Yep. I have a friend that mixes Phillips Tropartic with X/C and is working with an engineer from Phillips who regularly samples his oil. Troparctic is high in ZDDP, is that what you are concerned with? As I understand it the newer diesel oils are made to work with particulate filters and have to be low in ZDDP to avoid getting ash deposits in them.
 
Avblend

Bought a 182 from up north that used Exxon 15-50 and two cans of avblend every 25hrs oil change had cyl in 400hrs so I started to wonder what went wrong in my thinking heres what happened . Cold engine 15w oil when cold add two cans of avblend maybe 5w maybe 10w on take offf when you need the best protection dont get it till engine gets hot.looked at msds sheet and seen that avblend was 99% mineral spirits and hydrofluoric acid .You might want to see whats in Cam guard before you run it. they have some nice T shirts though.
Bob
 
n761tj said:
Avblend is a single component, thin mineral oil. It was created in the 1950's.

Some people swear it helps with valve sticking. If it works for you great!

I have tested it thoroughly for wear and corrosion protection and it only hurts performance because it thins the oil reducing the oil film thickness. The thinner oil is what gives them the claim of better fuel economy. It evaporates in about 5 hours in most aircraft.

Camguard is comprised of 11 high performance additives and is 100% active with no diluents. We offer demonstrable proof of performance in rust and corrosion protection, deposit control (the only product to do so), wear reduction and seal conditioning/protection.

Avblend sponsors Sean Tucker, which is fine.

It took Mike Busch 2 years to test Camguard for himself. He is not on our payroll.

You should look at both companies data and judge for yourself.

Ed
Click to expand...

Thank you, I will. :)
 
rocketbob said:
Yep. I have a friend that mixes Phillips Tropartic with X/C and is working with an engineer from Phillips who regularly samples his oil. Troparctic is high in ZDDP, is that what you are concerned with? As I understand it the newer diesel oils are made to work with particulate filters and have to be low in ZDDP to avoid getting ash deposits in them.
Click to expand...

The Tropartic has slightly reduced ZDDP but the highest metallic content is from the overbased detergents and is thus the biggest problem. It is interesting that a Phillips engineer would would gamble with his friends life by promoting the use of an ash containing oil in an air-cooled aircraft engine. The oil may test just fine even after the engine fails due to catastrophic preignition caused by metallic ash deposits in the combustion chamber.

Ed
 
6 Gun said:
Bought a 182 from up north that used Exxon 15-50 and two cans of avblend every 25hrs oil change had cyl in 400hrs so I started to wonder what went wrong in my thinking heres what happened . Cold engine 15w oil when cold add two cans of avblend maybe 5w maybe 10w on take offf when you need the best protection dont get it till engine gets hot.looked at msds sheet and seen that avblend was 99% mineral spirits and hydrofluoric acid .You might want to see whats in Cam guard before you run it. they have some nice T shirts though.
Bob
Click to expand...

Avblend is 99% thin mineral oil (0W) not mineral spirits a solvent (charcoal lighter fluid) and 1% ether (starting fluid). Where did you get the hydrofluoric acid, one of the most dangerous compounds around?

Ed
 
Thanks Ed

Ed, thank you for posting here and sharing your expertise.

I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.
Click to expand...

I was just considering an air/oil separator installation, maybe not such a good idea. I have heard the same story before but coming from you, it carries more weight.
I may be dropping Avblend in favor of Camguard now.
 
N427EF said:
Ed, thank you for posting here and sharing your expertise.



I was just considering an air/oil separator installation, maybe not such a good idea. I have heard the same story before but coming from you, it carries more weight.
I may be dropping Avblend in favor of Camguard now.
Click to expand...

Ernst,

I suspect your concern is a dirty bottom skin from the breather. I went the separator route with a previous airplane and it never worked well, seemed like the blow by took a lot of stuff with it not withstanding the separator feature. Also, the separator can needs regular service as it does capture water and other junk coming out to the engine. I can not imagine plumbing it back into the crank case.

What seems to work reasonably well with regard to keeping the bottom skin kind of clean is routing the breather exit just above one of the exhaust stacks. The hot pipe probably super vaporizes the breather stuff and there is less mess on the bottom skin.
 
n761tj said:
I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.
Click to expand...

Thank you Ed. Serious question; would you judge CamGuard to be an adequate prophylactic against that chemical activity?
 
n761tj said:
The Tropartic has slightly reduced ZDDP but the highest metallic content is from the overbased detergents and is thus the biggest problem. It is interesting that a Phillips engineer would would gamble with his friends life by promoting the use of an ash containing oil in an air-cooled aircraft engine. The oil may test just fine even after the engine fails due to catastrophic preignition caused by metallic ash deposits in the combustion chamber.

Ed
Click to expand...

He's been flying his rocket for a number of years with a 50/50 mix of Troparctic and X/C, and probably averages 120 hours/year. When the formulation changed for Troparctic they (Phillips) had him dial the ratio back a bit. I will ask him tonight but he has had absolutely no problems with the oil mix itself. I've seen the inside of his 540 and its clean as a whistle, but he has had a few cases of sticking valves. I know several other people that have run full synthetics with few problems.
 
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n761tj said:
I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

Ed
Click to expand...

And if the captured fluid is not returned to the crankcase????
 
DanH said:
Thank you Ed. Serious question; would you judge CamGuard to be an adequate prophylactic against that chemical activity?
Click to expand...

This is ong thing that Camguard does very well. It quashes the chemical activity of the reactive species found in the blow-by.

Ed
 
rocketbob said:
He's been flying his rocket for a number of years with a 50/50 mix of Troparctic and X/C, and probably averages 120 hours/year. When the formulation changed for Troparctic they (Phillips) had him dial the ratio back a bit. I will ask him tonight but he has had absolutely no problems with the oil mix itself. I've seen the inside of his 540 and its clean as a whistle, but he has had a few cases of sticking valves. I know several other people that have run full synthetics with few problems.
Click to expand...

Why have you seen the insides of his engine?

If the engine was so clean why did he have valve sticking? Ash deposits in the guides?

Did it look as clean as our certification engine? Note valve guide
http://aslcamguard.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Certification-Engine.pdf

Have you looked for combustion chamber deposits? The main issue.

I find it improbable that this was a Phillips (company) sanctioned endeavor.

Ed
 
I saw the inside of the valve cover when he reamed the guide. Yes it was as clean as your engine, as far as one can tell from inside the valve cover. And yes it is a Phillips-sanctioned test, he gets the oil directly from Phillips at no cost and it is marked as a test oil not for resale, comes in plain black bottles. The test oil he gets is mixed with off-the-shelf Troparctic.
 
camguard

Ed
would you say that Mr Cotton was right about the benzotriazole and is the phosphate to clean or is it to combate the acid build up.
 
6 Gun said:
Ed
would you say that Mr Cotton was right about the benzotriazole and is the phosphate to clean or is it to combat the acid build up.
Click to expand...

What did Mr Cotton say about benzotriazole? It is a copper corrosion inhibitor.

The phosphate ester is an anti-scuff/anti-wear and not a cleaner nor an acid neutralizer. As a matter of fact the phosphate ester in the Shell oils breaks down (hydrolyzes) and becomes acidic. You need a lot of benzotriazole to protect copper in the presence of this oil soluble phosphoric acid derivative.

Ed
 
rocketbob said:
I saw the inside of the valve cover when he reamed the guide. Yes it was as clean as your engine, as far as one can tell from inside the valve cover. And yes it is a Phillips-sanctioned test, he gets the oil directly from Phillips at no cost and it is marked as a test oil not for resale, comes in plain black bottles. The test oil he gets is mixed with off-the-shelf Troparctic.
Click to expand...

So you have not seen inside the crankcase, the pistons or the jugs? I would like to see the pistons out of this engine.

Did Phillips pay for the valve guide reaming on your friends engine? They should have.

Did they analyze the guide deposits? They should have (looking for ash deposits).

I would be interested how and why your friend would do this testing. Are they paying him for his engine? I find the whole thing surprising to say the least.

Ed
 
I'm sure he can explain the background of his relationship with Phillips as he's an occasional poster here. Bottom line is he is running oil with ZDDP and has had two valve guides require reaming in 800 hours which doesn't necessarily point to ash deposits as the cause since valves stick regularly on engines running nothing but aviation oil.
 
I was surprised to read the following in the presentation.

Engine should be warmed up to operating temperature by FLYING.

That seems to go against conventional wisdom on this forum. Can you explain the reasoning for this statement?

Thanks
 
Last post got my attention also. I interpreted to mean warmed up to 180+ by flying and not short ground runs that would do more harm than good.

I also use a home-made dryer, and pump air through the oil filler neck immediately after shutting the engine down without connecting the return line on the dryer. It is amazing how much vapor pumps out of the breather line....goes on for 5 minutes. I have had my suspicions however that much of that vapor is also oil since it definitely leaves a residue on the fingers. If only I could find a way to just as easily remove the acids and other corrosive materials. I have heard only good things about Cam guard. I have no first hand experience.
 
tsneidin said:
I was surprised to read the following in the presentation.

Engine should be warmed up to operating temperature by FLYING.

That seems to go against conventional wisdom on this forum. Can you explain the reasoning for this statement?

Thanks
Click to expand...

This is the problem with seeing my presentation without me to explain the points. (I did not post it)

The point I was making was to thoroughly heat up the engine/oil by flying before draining the oil. This maximizes the removal of lead bromide particles from the engine with the oil drain. Lead particles combine with varnish (from the blow-by fuel)to form lead sludge. Lead sludge can fill the prop hub or seize an oil control ring, both are expensive.

I am curious, what did you think I was talking about?

Ed
 
Thanks for clarification. I can see how it would be interpreted a couple of different ways? At first glance it appears to read that you should take off before the engine is warmed up. I think this is what he was referring to.
 
Cam guard question

Ed - I recently overhauled a lycoming IO-360 (200 hp). As it is now winter I needed to go with a multi grade oil. After speaking to their salespeople at Oshkosh, I decided to go with Aeroshell 15w50 from late fall to spring and Aeroshell w100+ in summer. The temperatures in Iowa can swing around a lot and I like the flexibility of the multi grade. The engine is preheated when night time temps are below 40. Oil changes are every 30-40 hours or so.

Will Camguard work with both of these oils? I use a total of 9 qts so I guess a half pint would be 5%.

Also, do you think these oils will work in my situation? Not wanting to start an engine oil flame war, but I'd love to hear what oil you'd use if you were me. You are clearly a lubrication expert with great knowledge and I'd like to benefit from that,

Thanks for any info you can share,

Dave Geibble
 
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