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ECI Cermanil Cylinder Break In

rv7plt

Member
I just replaced the cylinders on my IO360 200hp. I am now running ECI Freedom remanufactured cylinders with the nickel/graphite (Cermanil) bore. The cylinders came with break in instructions that say to use 65-75 percent power until oil usage stabilizes. I have 5 hrs on the cylinders now and the rings have not seated. The CHTs have not exceeded 370 degrees. I am wondering if I should now run at max power to seat the rings? That is the way I have broken in steel cylinders: run at max power with CHTs in the 400-450 degree range until the CHTs drop. The only problem is that by running at the high CHTs, the cylinders may glaze and the rings would never seat. Alternatively, I can continue to run at reduced power and hope that the rings seat. These cylinders supposedly have an easy break in. Anyone that has experience breaking in cermanil cylinders please chime in.

John Henley, RV7
 
ECI Cylinders

I replaced my high blow-by cylinders with ECI Titan cylinders. Now have about 500 hours on them. I started out using about 1 qt of oil at 10 hours, then 12, then 15, now 20 hours per qt. Big thing I noticed was that for first 25 hours I would reach high CHT (400) before I would get down to normal GPH on fuel flow. Gradually over time it got better, but it was not until about 50 hours that I could reach peak EGT by reducing fuel flow and still keep CHT below 400. Now I can run any fuel flow and keep CHT well below 400. My oil consumption it still 20 hrs/qt and my compression at last check was still 79/80 on all four.
 
I have 4 ECi cylinders (nickel carbide) that I replaced due to the AD. Initial ring seating was in about 3/10ths of an hour (by reference to drops in CHT and EGT across all 4 cylinders). The remarkable thing was that all four happened at just about the same time.

I think on a break in you want to achieve two things. 1) you need a lot of BMEP (pressure) in the cylinder to force the rings up against the cylinder wall to avoid glazing and 2) at the same time, you need to keep the temperatures low to avoid glazing. I think this is especially true when the cylinders have been replaced and not run on an engine in a test stand.

From reading your message, you may have taxied to the runway (CHTs may have gotten really hot) and while flying it doesn't sound like you've applied enough power. I'd try really pumping up the power - don't worry too much about the EGT - but limit the CHT to 400. For example, if you can go full throttle without hitting CHT of 400 - then that's the way to go.

I wish I could tell you that with only 5 hours you are okay - but it is possible the glazing has begun.

Dan
 
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ECI now hones their cylinders with a plateau finsh so I expect they should break in within minutes like every other modern reciprocating engine made on the planet.
 
I have done everything humanly possible to avoid glazing. My inital engine start was followed by a one minute taxi and then airborne. At no time have I exceeded 380 begrees. I have run 24 squared for 45 minutes. I maybe I should run it oversquared at full throttle and a low enough rpm to keep the CHTs below 400.

John
 
Myth

ECI now hones their cylinders with a plateau finsh so I expect they should break in within minutes like every other modern reciprocating engine made on the planet.

Bob:

How could you!???:rolleyes: You can't go exposing these myths that way!;). How can you expect an aircraft engine to be modern????:eek:
 
Assuming you are running a break in oil, not a W100plus or similar, you should see most break in pretty quickly.

The best way to achieve this would be low level(28"MP), WOT, say 2500 RPM and 60-80F LOP.

This will be around 10.0 - 10.7 GPH.

Some folk will struggle with this concept.:)
 
I ran Cerminils for close to 1500 hours on the Valkyrie, and even though I followed the Mattituck break-in instructions to the letter, they never really got better than about 8 hours to the quart, and more like 6 most of the time. At the end, they just got worse and worse. these were circa 2005 jugs (group "A"s), and the rings at that time had a problem with delamination - unfortunately, ECI never made much noise about that problem (and I stay pretty tuned in to the experimental aviation world), so I never re-ringed them early on. Finally swapped them out with Lycoming jugs a few months ago, and can cut down on my oil orders for our fleet. re-honing the nickel jugs is not simple - takes a special diamond hone to do it right, from what I learned from ECI.

It will be interesting to see if your consumption improves with a bit more running.

Paul
 
I will try the low level at 28' MP AND 2500 RPM mate but I will back off at 400degrees CHT and I will run full rich for cooling. Will let you all know how it turns out.

Cheers,

John
 
Quart every two hours

Out the breather ---- Circa 2005 installed new ECI Cerminils (Group "A", in the AD) ---- at 125 hours (RV-10, IO540C4B5), still blowing oil like crazy ----- compressions are in mid 70s. ECI will not provide any warranty relief, so the owner is stuck----- I will probably install an oil separator, just to keep from dripping oil, from the belly, onto the hangar floor.
 
Out the breather ---- Circa 2005 installed new ECI Cerminils (Group "A", in the AD) ---- at 125 hours (RV-10, IO540C4B5), still blowing oil like crazy ----- compressions are in mid 70s. ECI will not provide any warranty relief, so the owner is stuck----- I will probably install an oil separator, just to keep from dripping oil, from the belly, onto the hangar floor.

I'mn going to guess you are a victim of the ring delamination problem...call ECI and bring that up - they might provide you with a new set. Yeah, you'll have to do the labor of re-ringing, but you might solve the problem!
 
This is an update to an old thread.
History
2006 ECI cylinders installed on rocket, nickel carbide, 10:1 pistons

2010 Cylinders removed for ECI recall, oil consumption also high, compression rings delaminated, 400 hours 4 jugs replaced by ECI, two rebuilt. Jugs sent to Lycon for port and polish work. 10:1 teflon pistons installed

2014 High oil consumption, black oil, removed jugs, compression rings delaminated again. 450 hours. Sent to overhaul shop, all jugs checked,guides, lapped etc, honed, new rings. Cam, lifter faces inspected and were in good shape, consistent with 900 hour engine.

April 2015, 1st flight, noted no hot temperatures typical with ring break-in procedures. All summer tried different oils, different break-in. Wrong rings were installed! During upheaval at ECI company I was given cast rings instead of the problematic CN203 rings. Three oil changes were done in the fifty hours with each change showing a small but increasing metal content.
November 2015, Off came jug #1 and a visual inspection showed the cylinders to be ok but cam lobes and lifter faces badly scuffed. Engine removed from airplane and sent to overhaul shop.
No one can explain the cam/lifter damage in the 50 hours but I believe the excessive blow by caused a swirl of particles in the crankcase that started the wear in the upper end.

I have decided to install six new Lycoming cylinders on my rocket. I will be going with stock pistons this time as I have not raced for the last three seasons. It will be interesting to see how my cross country performance will be impacted but the stock pistons vs the 10:1 and Lycon ported cylinders.
In all these threads on ECI cylinders, there are many users who have had excellent service with these jugs. I have six ECI cylinders, in good shape, with new, (correct rings) 10:1 pistons and lycon work, for sale. They have a total of about 500 hours since being at the ECI factory for AD replacement/repair, four new at the time and two rebuilt.

10 years ago I went with ECI for the corrosion resistance and also because Lycoming had done such a terrible job on the previous brand new cylinders I had purchased from them in 2001. The flashings around the fins were so bad that during the clean up I removed tablespoons of casting sand still in place!
Reports are that the Lycoming quality has greatly improved with competition and I at least have ECI to thank for that.
 
I just replaced the cylinders on my IO360 200hp. I am now running ECI Freedom remanufactured cylinders with the nickel/graphite (Cermanil) bore. The cylinders came with break in instructions that say to use 65-75 percent power until oil usage stabilizes. I have 5 hrs on the cylinders now and the rings have not seated. The CHTs have not exceeded 370 degrees. I am wondering if I should now run at max power to seat the rings? That is the way I have broken in steel cylinders: run at max power with CHTs in the 400-450 degree range until the CHTs drop. The only problem is that by running at the high CHTs, the cylinders may glaze and the rings would never seat. Alternatively, I can continue to run at reduced power and hope that the rings seat. These cylinders supposedly have an easy break in. Anyone that has experience breaking in cermanil cylinders please chime in.

John Henley, RV7

I agree with Bob, if the cylinders had a plateau finish, the break in is almost immediate and you won't see the heat common with courser honed cylinder. I had a cylinder glaze during break in. I had wet oil on my plugs and could easily see the dark brown coloring in the cylinder wall (cross hatch turns dark brown) through the spark plug. You may want to pull a couple of plug and take a look. There's no downside to running it hard. In my case, it was too late. I suspect you may be fine. How much oil have you burned in the first 5 hours? Mike Busch has written that lower power is fine if you keep the CHT's down; Just takes longer to break in.

Larry
 
i'd like to bump this old thread to see if there are any news/experiences meanwhile available on the topic. I am in the brake in process with my nickel plated ECI cylinders and it seems that brake in doesn't proceed so well. one quart of oil lasts 2,5 hours, CHT drop was not observed yet.

Could anybody share some data how it went with brakin' in Cerminil-cylinders?

Cheers
Kay
 
Not much difference

I have the Cerminil cyls on my Rocket - TCM 550-N. Ran 'em 1st with mineral, then Phillips 25W-60 as I had a lot of that around from a previous round motor aircraft. Oil use early was more or less higher than desired (like a breaking-in engine), but the cyls finally broke in and oil now is around 10-12hr/qt.

Somewhere along the line I talked to a Cirrus Driver who told me to never put in more than 6qt in the 8qt sump - that helped get to 12hr/qt. So - maybe run your sump at ~min amount to see if it is just the engine splashing it out?

Running the engine 'over-square' might help with the break in too. Say - 25-26"/2300RPM and of course LOP. You don't want to hide the break-in CHTs with extra fuel, ya know.

Next engine is a supercharged low-compression 550 with the same cyl wall treatment - I'll be using Phillips 20W-50 as I used up the 25W-60. I'll run 'er hard for the first few hrs (lots of fun I think) then see if it works like the other engine did. 38" on that engine spec is 350HP @ 2700...might be thirsty, but at least I can get lost quickly!:eek:
 
This info is a little old, I had a C-182P (1976) with the Continental O-470 for 13 years. I overhauled it twice using chrome cylinders and got great service out of it, 1600 and 1700 hours plus on each. The engine rebuilder, a great shop in Corona CA, told me to "break it in like your going to fly it, chrome cylinders were made for flight schools, no down time needed". I did and like I said, great service from the engine. Dan from Reno
 
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. My O-290-D2 high compression (built in 1991) has Cermichrome cylinders. Years later when I first flew, they broke in instantly as far as I could tell. After five hours, I just changed out the break-in oil for Aeroshell W100 and Camgaurd. Compressions are still 79/80 or better after almost 400 hrs. Typically I use less than a quart of oil between 25 hr. oil changes. Blackstone has this to say about Cermichrome :
Discontinued in the early ’90s, Cermichrome was a process
invented by Engine Components, Inc., to overcome occasional
break-in difficulties associated with channel chrome. Shortly after
Cermichrome made its debut in the cylinder world, aircraft owners
and mechanics began reporting loss of compression after only a few
hundred hours. In most cases, upon inspection it was discovered
that the silicon carbide coating was worn away, a deep ring step had
formed, and barrel dimensions were out of limits.

A number of engines with Cermichrome cylinders are still out
there. Many are on planes used infrequently by their owners, not
flown enough since installation of the cylinders to develop
problems. A double orange band painted on the cylinder, visible
from the top, identifies the cylinder as Cermichrome. Should you
replace them? Probably not, unless you’re experiencing low
compression and/or abnormal oil consumption. Some people have
never had problems with Cermichrome, and you may be one of
these lucky ones. If you do have to remove them though,
Cermichromes can be re-chromed using the correct process (as with
any chrome cylinder).
 
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