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FSDO says I can't land at any other airport but my home during Phase 1.

ArVeeNiner

ArVeeNiner

Well Known Member
My FSDO says I can't land at any other airport but my home airport during Phase 1. He says that he is positive about this but I can't find this stipulation anywhere. Does anybody know where this limitation exists at?
 
for my gyro i got 25 miles from a gps waypoint. any airports in that range were fair game except if they were class c n b. that gave me about 5 airports. what is written in your limitations? you might still be able to get them amended. :rolleyes:
 
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My area was 66 nm one leg, 63 and 45 nm the others. These were picked by the DAR so we could one get cheaper gas (although we get a great price in sua) and so we could go eat at different airports. Either he is wrong or our DAR is wrong. My bet is your guy is wrong.
Phelps
 
I got a 70 mile square but I couldn't fly over this one area because it was "congested." It wasn't but somebody in the authorization line lived there. We landed at many different airports.
 
Hey Kelly, did you politely ask him to show you the reg so that you could learn something? I'd love to hear his citation. Sort of like when I was told last week that I HAD to have an ELT, even in a single-seater....the FSDO inspector didn't read the whole reg. I only pointed this out to him when I had the reg in front of me an was absolutely sure I was right - no use poking the bear unless you are armed! Getting a FSDO guy to admit he's wrong is not easy, unless you can prove it in black and white.

I know that inspectors/DAR's have lots of latitude on granting test areas (they are somewhat arbitrary within certain guidelines) - unfortunately, that same latitude might extend to restricting them..... have you already been granted your ops Lims and airworthiness? If not, it might be time to go DAR shopping....

Paul
 
Other landing airports

I typically assign an area and allow operations at all airports contained within that area. One area I assign probably has 8-10 airports within that area.
 
My FSDO (Boston) also started out telling me I would have to conduct Phase I from a single airport KPYM.
Wasn't easy but had to politely, yet firmly (with the help of my DAR Jon Ross) point out the safety concerns of such a restriction along with pointing out that no such regs exist.

Remember... You are the customer (the bureaucracy forgets this)
don't be afraid to push back.:)

Rich M.
 
He hasn't issued my certificate or limits yet. He will be back in a week so I do plan to ask him about this again.

He was pretty adamant about this. He said the reason that he's so sure about this was that he has fought this battle before. It really took me by surprise.

I tried to make a case for going to other airports with crossing runways for some crosswind practice. He said that was pilot proficiency practice and I could do that in a Cessna. I explained to him that a Cessna handles differently than an RV and exploring that envelope was important. No joy. I will push this further.

There were other things he said about the Phase 1 area like:

-it couldn't extend beyond the local FSDO's area because they would have to coordinate with other FSDOs and

-that I couldn't make a case regarding the area of Phase 1. I came up with a couple of Phase 1 suggestions with areas nearly as large as an area with a 25 NM radius. My logic was that if I were in a location that had no densely populated cities around that I would get the entire 25 NM circle. Basically, I want to move the area that I can't access due to population to a non-populated area.

He did tell me that I could have an area with a 50 NM radius so I won't push these items. I'm ending up with a decent area.

I want to share my entire experience but I'm holding until I get my ticket. Stay tuned.
 
Very odd

I had a 25 mile radius for first 15 hours, fifty mile radius for the remainder. No Class B or C. D was okay. No real count but at least 20 airports in that radius and landed at most of them. Never a mention of restriction to main airport.

Seems this fellow is a bit over zealous....
 
Kelly, when I got area directly from the Oakland FSDO, for my other experimental, flying out of Half Moon Bay, I had an area all the way to Watsonville, over to Hollister, up 101, and back to HAF (for an 85 MPH biplane, that was a lot of space!). As long as I stayed out of the Class B/C airspace they were fine with other airports.
 
FSDO says I can't............................during Phase 1

The Reno FSDO gave me 100NM radius center on KRTS excluding Reno-Tahoe International for my Phase 1. Dan
 
Wow, that seems really out of reality to me.

I had an area from Rancho Murieta to Redding, and as the width of the valley north of Sacto. Had to stay clear of Sacto, and Beal airspace.

This was done specifically to accommodate the speed and range of the RV, and to give me a lot of alternate airports in my test area.

Done by a FSDO guy, not a DAR. I drew a map, he approved it.
 
50 NM Radius, clear of class Bravo for me. Any airport was fair game.

Ask him for a preliminary copy of your limitations so you can study them before they are finalized. If the restriction is not in there, then don't say a word.
 
Guidance docs

Airworthiness Inspections 8130-2F chg 4 - Guidance for the inspection (includes the new "51%" form as of 9/30/09).

Airworthiness Inspections AC 20-27G - Guidance for the Builder.

FSIMS - the collection of FAA guidance on just about anything - http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents

All of that said, they can write anything they want for Phase I limitations - if you're stuck with a FSDO that has decided this as a matter of their local policy, I'm not sure that there's much that can be done about it. Maybe letting EAA / Chad J know to see what they might be able to do. In any event, as was suggested earlier, if the written word contains no such limitations, then not an issue.

Dan
 
You will never win an argument with an FAA employee - especially if he has power over you. Tell him you will abide by the restrictions, but ask him what you should do if your local airport suddenly fogs in unexpectedly while you were in the area and fuel is an issue.

John
 
johngoodman said:
You will never win an argument with an FAA employee - especially if he has power over you. Tell him you will abide by the restrictions, but ask him what you should do if your local airport suddenly fogs in unexpectedly while you were in the area and fuel is an issue.

John
Click to expand...

Or, something goes out of spec while out of range of your home field----sudden drop of oil pressure for instance.
 
My FSDO asked me to mark what I wanted on a sectional - and told me to avoid major urban areas. I essentially drew a box around northern california excluding the SF bay area and he said - 'looks good to me'.
 
ArVeeNiner said:
There were other things he said about the Phase 1 area like:

-it couldn't extend beyond the local FSDO's area because they would have to coordinate with other FSDOs
Click to expand...

This one does seem to be valid, at least in our area of the country. In north Alabama we are up in the corner of the Birmingham FSDO region and the DARs aren't allowed to offer a Phase One area that crosses the state line into the Memphis or Atlanta FSDO. But Birmingham is fine with our Phase One covering nearly half the state and being able to land at any airport.

But you are dealing with a misinformed FAA person..........
 
Kelly,

you mention in your second post that he has to come back to issue the certificate?
Most DARs make one visit and that's it.
If you still have a way out of this consider another DAR.
Mine came from the Sacramento FSDO and is allowed to do inspection in other than his own district. He was also half price from all the others.
PM me if you want his name and number.
These officials can be dead wrong and they often are but we gave them so much power that backtracking for them is a major blow to their ego.

I was very happy with my DAR who was meticulous and gave me a large area for phase one, only limitation was to avoid populated areas.
Later when I went to get my repairman's certificate with an Oakland FSDO inspector he tried to draw me into an argument about AD compliance,
I simply agreed with everything.
 
Returning to your home base and finding a Mooney belly down in the center of the runway would require you to land at another location.
 
Test Area

Look at FAA Order 8130.2G which is guideance for FAA inspectors issuing A/W certs. Section 9 Para 4103 on pg. 4-63 says nothing about restrictiing someone to there "home" airport, it aslo references para. 4075 on pg 4-33 which contains the general guidelines for a phase 1 test area, which under certain conditions requires you to operate from a secondary airport.
This order can be downloaded from the FAA website.

BTW- My DAR gave my 75MN radius from my base and to avoid nearby Class B airspace


Waiting for my plane to get out of the paint shop!
 
I'm about 8 miles to the edge of my FSDO area, and my inspector told me I could not go outside his "jurisdiction". I was OK with that, because he compensated for that and gave me an area about 70NM wide and long.

I was not restricted from operating at any of the airports inside my test boundaries. That policy was from Indianapolis FSDO about 5 years ago.

Perhaps an accumulation of a list of FSDOs that have allowed multiple airport operations during the test phase would be helpful? "See, this is what other guys and gals have been given by their local FSDO" ?
 
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I'm thinking maybe I should not bring it up to him again. I think I could bring him all kinds of anecdotal evidence proving that he's full of hot air but the bottom line is that he has the final say.

I'll update this thread with the outcome. Thanks for all the advice!
 
ArVeeNiner said:
I'm thinking maybe I should not bring it up to him again. I think I could bring him all kinds of anecdotal evidence proving that he's full of hot air but the bottom line is that he has the final say.

I'll update this thread with the outcome. Thanks for all the advice!
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Why not bring it up....how can he restrict you any more than what he has already stated???

By not bringing this to his attention you are not only being restricted unjustifiably but also putting the next builders he deals with through the same hassle...
 
I agree with Sam

The easy thing to do is not to make a fuss and I understand that but then nothing changes. As pilots we are tasked with flying precisely knowing the rules and flying in accordance with the rules the least we can expect from those who regulate us is to do the same. I am sure this DAR would be more than happy to bring up something you did wrong.
 
FSDO ASI or is he a DAR?

ArVeeNiner said:
My FSDO says I can't land at any other airport but my home airport during Phase 1. He says that he is positive about this but I can't find this stipulation anywhere. Does anybody know where this limitation exists at?
Click to expand...

There is a difference...
 
There is no such reference

But - he can point to the language that talks about safe corridors for takeoff and landing, etc.

Bottom line, there is nothing that specifically says that - but there is nothing that mandates the inspector must be permissive. They have wide latitude on writing the limitations. I've seen a situation where an experimental aircraft received a letter of authorization for 6 hours of flying - all phase I - no phase II. Anything beyond the 6 hours would have been the subject of an amended letter of authorization.

You might try and ask for first 10 hours at the single airport and then the remainder of phase I with no limitation on airports.

You could go though the documents cited earlier, having the relevant portions printed out, and ask where the limitation comes from. It will probably turn our to be local policy. Unfortunately, there's not too much you can do about that.

Dan
 
Annother guidance doc

DanBaier said:
Airworthiness Inspections 8130-2F chg 4 - Guidance for the inspection (includes the new "51%" form as of 9/30/09).

Airworthiness Inspections AC 20-27G - Guidance for the Builder.

FSIMS - the collection of FAA guidance on just about anything - http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents

All of that said, they can write anything they want for Phase I limitations - if you're stuck with a FSDO that has decided this as a matter of their local policy, I'm not sure that there's much that can be done about it. Maybe letting EAA / Chad J know to see what they might be able to do. In any event, as was suggested earlier, if the written word contains no such limitations, then not an issue.

Dan
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Also see:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/consistency_standardization/
If one FSDO is applying requirements in excess of all of the others, then this is the tool to use.
 
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