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RV 12 as an EAB?

how is your RV12 going to be liscensed?

  • you have bought rv12 kits and you plan on E LSA

    Votes: 51 58.0%
  • you have bought rv12 kits and you plan on EAB

    Votes: 15 17.0%
  • you like to click on polls, but haven't bought any RV 12 kits yet

    Votes: 22 25.0%

  • Total voters
    88

Danny7

Well Known Member
Are there any RV-12 builders out there that are building as an EAB? I think the factory recommendation is as an ELSA, correct?
 
I am planning on licensing mine as an E-AB, and have contacted the local DAR to see if he foresees any issues with that. No showstoppers so far.

-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD flying
RV-12 N122LD finish kit
 
Me too

I am also planning on an EAB, I am guessing Van's registered his that way to demonstrate it could be done. There is just too many small things to customize for our own needs that would prevent it from complying with the E LSA.
 
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For personal use, I would think that EAB would be the way to go. Doesn't change the way you operate the airplane, but gives you - the builder - the flexibility to maintain and make changes as appropriate.
If you were building to sell, then ELSA would probably maximize resale value and possibly limit liability somewhat.
 
My reasoning for EAB as a 'threepeat offender' builder is that the E-LSA category mostly benefits the next guy who owns your plane, not you, if you are an experienced homebuilder. Since either way you can do your own maintenance, and either way it is a Light Sport category aircraft unless you did something to place the aircraft outside the FAA definitions for LSA's like raise the gross weight or put a CS prop on it.

In exchange for the transferability of owner maintenance under E-LSA (and a presumably positive effect on resale value by virtue of that) you get a sort of choke collar on a homebuilder's natural inclination to tweak an airplane to their own needs and preferences. That said, since I am an EAA Technical Counselor and have seen a fair number of excellent to scary levels of design and workmanship on homebuilts, I would think that E-LSA is a natural best option for a first time builder, and for those more experienced it becomes more of an open question.

Just my $0.02 - YMMV
 
Please be careful with wording.

either way it is a Light Sport category aircraft unless you did something to place the aircraft outside the FAA definitions for LSA's like raise the gross weight or put a CS prop on it.

A "Light-Sport Category" aircraft is an S-LSA.
What you mean is that it is "light-sport compliant".
 
A "Light-Sport Category" aircraft is an S-LSA.
What you mean is that it is "light-sport compliant".
Hi Mel,

So if I build an aircraft that is light sport compliant, I can just start flying it as a light sport pilot? What does the FAA want to see?

Thank You.
 
I queried Van's not long ago about getting the 12 on the approved 51% list. The FAA has started once again to review kits for inclusion on the list. So far, the 12 is not on the list but it will be reviewed in time.

The only prohibition to E-AB at this time is proving it is 51% AB. That may not be a problem with most DAR's.

Flying it as a LSA shouldn't be a problem either.

I like the airplane except it is a bit expensive.
 
A "Light-Sport Category" aircraft is an S-LSA.
What you mean is that it is "light-sport compliant".

Thanks, Mel! That's what I meant. :) Hopefully one of these years I'll get all of the ideas correctly lined up with the word labels.

-Dan Masys
 
There are only two differences between a RV-12 built as an ELSA or an EAB;

The EAB can have changes made to it before it is certified and it can only have one Repairman's Certificate issued to the original builder.

The ELSA must wait until the DAR/FAA do the certification before changes can be made and it can have a Repairman's Certificate issued to any owner who takes the 16 hour approved course.

If you are planning to buy the full kit from Van's then it makes good sense to build it as an ELSA and make the small changes you wish after the DAR has approved it. If you wish to use steam gauges and older radios, a used Rotax engine or similar changes then go with the EAB.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Another difference....

There are only two differences between a RV-12 built as an ELSA or an EAB;

The EAB can have changes made to it before it is certified and it can only have one Repairman's Certificate issued to the original builder.

The ELSA must wait until the DAR/FAA do the certification before changes can be made and it can have a Repairman's Certificate issued to any owner who takes the 16 hour approved course.

If you are planning to buy the full kit from Van's then it makes good sense to build it as an ELSA and make the small changes you wish after the DAR has approved it. If you wish to use steam gauges and older radios, a used Rotax engine or similar changes then go with the EAB.

Best regards,
Vern
E-AB will require a 40 hour phase I instead of the 5 hour phase I given to E LSAs.
 
The ELSA must wait until the DAR/FAA do the certification before changes can be made ...

If you are planning to buy the full kit from Van's then it makes good sense to build it as an ELSA and make the small changes you wish after the DAR has approved it...

Ah, therein lies the key question. My understanding of E-LSA is that no changes can be made to the factory configuration that was submitted to ASTM, and doing so presumably would, as with production aircraft, put the certification at some risk (which is to say be cause for your insurer to walk away from a claim if there was one, or the FSDO guy to throw even more of the book at you if you bent some aluminum in an incident or accident.) Am I misinformed about this? It is certainly a the main issue! I had a recent email interchange with Joe Norris, head of homebuilding at EAA, and his opinion was that if you want to change anything, not just big things, better go with EAB.
 
Once an E-LSA aircraft is certificated, it is an experimental and any changes may be made as long as they do not take it out of light-sport parameters.
 
Just A Few Changes

My three bladed Sensenich prop, vernier throttle and cabin soundproofing have made the decision for me, to go EAB. Now, let's see what else would be nice to change?? I kinda like the little light that Van put on his Vertical Stab. Besides, after all of that work, I want to be listed as the builder!


Tom
 
Once an E-LSA aircraft is certificated, it is an experimental and any changes may be made as long as they do not take it out of light-sport parameters.

what happens if something takes it out of LS parameters? Can an LSA be changed to an EAB sometime after the pink ticket, like at 100 hours? I'm asking to see if their is any flexibility after it is designated.

also, could a Private Pilot fly a light sport aircraft if it no longer qualifies as a light sport without any other special paperwork?
 
You cannot change horses in mid-stream!

what happens if something takes it out of LS parameters? Can an LSA be changed to an EAB sometime after the pink ticket, like at 100 hours?

If an aircraft certificated as an E-LSA is ever taken out of light-sport parameters, it essentially becomes a "lawn ornament." You cannot "back into" light-sport parameters by regulations. There is no other category the aircraft will fit into.

It can not be changed to amateur-built.

Now, if the aircraft were originally certificated as amateur-built and taken out of light-sport parameters, it can still be flown as an amateur-built, but not by a sport pilot.
 
E-LSA can be legally modified AFTER flying 5 hours

My understanding of E-LSA is that no changes can be made to the factory configuration that was submitted to ASTM
That is only true BEFORE the 5 hours have been flown off. After that you can legally make any changes that you want, as long as the aircraft still meets the definition of LSA.
I had a recent email interchange with Joe Norris, head of homebuilding at EAA, and his opinion was that if you want to change anything, not just big things, better go with EAB.
Joe Norris was referring to changes BEFORE the 5 hours are flown off. If you can wait until AFTER the 5 hours are flown off to make changes, then you are better off registering as E-LSA because there will only be a 5 hour test period and the plane will be worth more when you sell it.
What Vern posted is absolutely true and he offers good advice.
I also had an email exchange with Joe Norris. Here is a quote from that:
once that ELSA gets its airworthiness certificate it is an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft just like any other, and you will find no regulation that restricts the modification of such aircraft.
You can read his entire email quoted in my posting here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=35082&highlight=Norris
Joe
 
You do not need to wait until after phase I.

That is only true BEFORE the 5 hours have been flown off. After that you can legally make any changes that you want, as long as the aircraft still meets the definition of LSA.

An aircraft certificated as an E-LSA may be modified anytime after certification.
 
I asked someone at the EAA once why I can modify my ELSA after certification and the response was, "because it doesn't say you can't." I kinda like that way of thinking.
 
One More Thing

My three bladed Sensenich prop, vernier throttle and cabin soundproofing have made the decision for me, to go EAB. Now, let's see what else would be nice to change?? I kinda like the little light that Van put on his Vertical Stab. Besides, after all of that work, I want to be listed as the builder!

Tom

Another change that I made was to eliminate the fuel tank sight glass. I covered that area on my tank with two .040" plates, one on the inside and one on the outside, using Van's whole pattern and AN 426 4-4 rivets I like the flexible dip stick idea for pre-flight myself. Basically, I think that the RV-12 is a terrific little airplane, but I may think of a couple other minor changes during the build, that would not have been permitted, had I chose ELSA.

Tom
 
EAB

Correct me if I'm not mistaken, but doesn't EAB also allow you to fly in the IFR environment and possibly in some light IMC if you're say stuck on top?
 
There are several other threads on here addressing flying IFR / weather etc...in an LSA. It basically depends on what your operating limitations say...most E-LSA limitations will allow it so long as proper instruments are installed. RV-12s registered as S-LSAs cannot fly in actual IMC per ASTM standards but can be used for IFR training.
 
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