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Transition from 6A to 9A

Cth6

Well Known Member
Received my transition training in a 6A and getting ready to move to a 9A. Was told that outside of landing a bit slower (10kts or so) the approach is the same. Basically, 90 mph on downwind with 10* of flaps, 80 mph on base with another 10*, final down to 70 mph additional flaps optional, finally power to idle when over the fence. Fly the runway nose high at 5 feet to bleed speed and let her settle on the mains. Stick back and the nose will fall when ready.

I did find the 6A did not like to get too slow too quickly as she would drop during the level off over the runway. I would carry just a nudge of power to slow the descent right before touchdown.

For those that transitioned does that sound about right?
 
That will work for the 9A but be prepared to use up a LOT of runway if you come over the numbers at 70 mph and are expecting the landing to happen any time soon. The 9 will not slow down as fast as the 6 and into my 2000 ft strip I never come in over the "numbers" at anything faster than 65 mph and expect to stop the roll within that runway length and that's on grass. Don't force the touchdown with that A model.
 
Rv-9A

About right. You will note that the airplane does not like to slow down. It wants to go fast, so think about getting to your pattern speed earlier. I use flaps for ALL landings, it assures the lowest possible speed for the nosegear to come down. Crosswind control is excellent so flaps don't need any retraction to assure control in gusty crosswinds. And slips work well, but it will just not come down like a 6. If you are fast it will float forever so guard your speed more carefully at first until you get used to it. It is the most pleasant plane to fly I have ever owned and I have owned over two dozen from tri-pacer to Baron. Van did himself proud on this one.
Ed
 
Depends. I think you will float quite a bit at 70 mph over the fence. I pull power abeam the numbers, full flaps and trim for 60-65 mph the rest of the way down. But I also fly a pretty tight pattern, so if you are flying relatively wider patterns, your plan may work ok until you float down the runway at the end. My experience with a 6 is it drops a lot faster than the 9 so if you are floating with a 6 you will really float with a 9.

But there are multiple ways to skin a cat....

Just my two cents.
 
Thanks Denis. We were usually around 65 mph by the threshold in the 6A when power was pulled at the fence. Both are FP. Sounds like the 9 may be a bit more slippery. Are you flying short final at 65mph?
 
Greg, unfortunately we end up seeing far too many wide patterns with the flight schools down here. Not uncommon to be on a 3 or 4 mile base.
 
Yes, that's a fairly tight pattern and yes I do fly 65 mph with some flaps maybe as far back as the turn to final but thats maybe 1/2 mile.. with a fixed pitch prop and good airspeed control that works for me. My 9 is an excellent handling machine.
 
Sounds like the 9 may be a bit more slippery.
It's not that the -9 is more slippery, it's that the wing on the -9 is that much more efficient. It needs to be slowed down farther before descent starts happening.
 
I generally fly a very tight pattern with short finals. I fly 80 knots and add 10 degrees, maybe 20, on downwind. 20 degrees gives me a nice approach angle with good forward visibility over the nose. I'm usually over the fence at 65 knots, maybe 70, with about 10-20 deg flaps. I have a C/S prop and don't have an issue floating down the runway when the power comes off. I have noticed on the -6A that when it stops flying, it stops flying right now, (my instructor, who owned a -6A for years confirms this) whereas my -9A is much more inclined to land with utter predictability. If I start to flare a little high...it lets me just keep pulling back on the stick until it touches. Once you learn the fundamentals, the -9A is a pretty easy plane to land.
 
Took me a while to dial in my landings in my -9A. Your speeds look about right, I use knots, but if I convert to mph my best landings are 67-71 mph over the fence. I had to develop a fair amount of trust and comfort in the low and slow phase, if you are that slow and you pull back aggressively you'll drop it. I also find that keeping it nose low later followed by a gentle pull to just above level will give the smoothest results.

I've got a c/s prop, but I get most of my speed reduction with about a 3 degree nose up for a bit before final descent with some power left to maintain altitude. Once speed is good, pull the power back and let it find a nose low glide that keeps the speed steady. I don't push the prop in until I've pulled the power back, so speed management is already taken care of by then.

You'll get it. It's a great bird to fly.
 
If you're looking at FP prop, then yes the numbers and cautions about slowing down are about right. The 9A likes to fly, she doesn't bleed energy quickly.

I have a CS prop, and it helps tremendously - that's a big airbrake out front when it goes to fine pitch.
 
I went from a 9A to a 6A. The 9A is slippery as h&^$. Just keeps on going when you pull power. Have to be on top of your speed and not come in even 10 kts fast like everyone else has said. Both planes are great rides, but the 6A is a lot more responsive and lighter on the controls.

BTW: I wouldn't look for power to idle over the fence.. I went to idle half way downwind on a 5500 ft runway and flew the rest at no power.. this is with fixed pitch prop..
 
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Just do your transition learning curve on a long paved runway and you will find the best combo for power and approach on that FP 9. There's nothing squirrely with it , It's an excellent handling RV . Just dont try to "make it land" it will land when the time is right!
 
A slightly different perspective.....

The RV-9(A) isn't "more slippery" than and RV-6(A).
The big difference is that the 9(A) with it's higher aspect ratio wing has less of an induced drag change with changes in AOA.

In simpler terms, the short wing RV's, particularly the 3, 4 & 6, have a large increase in induced drag as the AOA increases. This is particularly evident in the round out and flair if a full nose up flare attitude is attained for a normal minimum speed landing. Which means as the nose comes up in the flare, the speed bleeds off relatively quickly.

On the 9(A), the induced drag influence from increasing AOA is less, so excess speed in the round-out and flare will take longer to dissipate.
 
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Same here

This is basically what I do - though maybe a bit slower with a bit more flaps. I'm probably over the fence between 60 and 65 knots. I also have a CS prop.

Of the airplanes I have flown, many have been easy to land (my Warrior for example), but none have been as easy as the -9A. It is a thoroughly delightful airplane that just refuses to do anything weird. I am no Ernest Gann, I assure you, but seriously--once you get used to it, you can absolutely grease it on at least one time in four, usually more.

It is his masterpiece. I love it.

I generally fly a very tight pattern with short finals. I fly 80 knots and add 10 degrees, maybe 20, on downwind. 20 degrees gives me a nice approach angle with good forward visibility over the nose. I'm usually over the fence at 65 knots, maybe 70, with about 10-20 deg flaps. I have a C/S prop and don't have an issue floating down the runway when the power comes off. I have noticed on the -6A that when it stops flying, it stops flying right now, (my instructor, who owned a -6A for years confirms this) whereas my -9A is much more inclined to land with utter predictability. If I start to flare a little high...it lets me just keep pulling back on the stick until it touches. Once you learn the fundamentals, the -9A is a pretty easy plane to land.
 
This is basically what I do - though maybe a bit slower with a bit more flaps. I'm probably over the fence between 60 and 65 knots. I also have a CS prop.

Of the airplanes I have flown, many have been easy to land (my Warrior for example), but none have been as easy as the -9A. It is a thoroughly delightful airplane that just refuses to do anything weird. I am no Ernest Gann, I assure you, but seriously--once you get used to it, you can absolutely grease it on at least one time in four, usually more.

It is his masterpiece. I love it.

I agree. I haven't had my -9A that long, but it hasn't sprung any surprises on me yet. Utterly predictable. I approach slower with more flaps on shorter fields but my home airport (uncontrolled) has 7000x150 foot runways. Landing a little long just means less taxiing. Sometimes I might even add a little power just short of touchdown. The local EAA chapter airport, which I fly into once or twice a week, however, has a much shorter and narrower runway where I don't have that luxury. Even so, in neither case do I find landing that airplane particularly challenging.
 
Fixed pitch vs c/s makes a big difference in the -9A in terms of landing, i.e., how long it will float in the flare. If yours is fixed pitch, do this exercise: fly final full flaps at 75 knots right up to the flare, and see how long (in seconds) the plane floats. Repeat at 70, 65, and 60 knots.

You will find that if the -9(A) gets too slow, it will develop a good sink rate and that can lead to a firm arrival.

You'll also find that the standard trick of adding speed to make it easier to handle a crosswind doesn't work well in the -9, especially with a fixed pitch prop. If you add speed, you'll just float longer and be fighting gusts and crosswind in the flare longer.

You might also notice that after flying at cruise speed, the sensations of flying at pattern speed are that you're flying really slowly.

You may also find that judging airspeed in the pattern without looking at the airspeed indicator is harder than in other airplanes. I've observed this in some other RV-9 pilots, and it took me a while to be able to judge speeds in the -9. Then again, when I got my -9A, I was just starting to fly again after 8 months off recovering from extremely invasive spinal surgery.

I normally fly (c/s prop) 80 knots downwind, slowing to 70, and 60 knots on final, but I tend to let the speed creep up on final. A friend with a -9 flies the whole pattern at 60 knots and 55 on short final, and I bet he does that with a little bit of power.

Anyway, find out what works for you, and expand your envelope slowly and carefully. You may have trouble finding a -9 CFI.
 
I agree with most everything here, having also done my transition training in a 6A. I will add that any extra speed also makes it very easy to over-correct in pitch. It takes a very small amount of back pressure to slow the descent and then start the flare, and even less if you have extra speed, or you will end up over-correcting.

Chris
 
Not that my insurance company was staffed by moonlighting Van's engineers, but they were perfectly fine with me building 5 hours time-in-type using a -6A before they insured my -9A. Their thinking was the two planes are similar enough. That was back in '08.
 
Not that my insurance company was staffed by moonlighting Van's engineers, but they were perfectly fine with me building 5 hours time-in-type using a -6A before they insured my -9A. Their thinking was the two planes are similar enough. That was back in '08.

And I did 5 hours in an RV10 for transition training to my 9A 5 years ago - AIG insurance considered that close enough.
 
For me, 6 months ago...AIG wanted two hours of dual before I could solo and one hour of solo before I could take passengers. For that, they did specify that it had to be a 9A, but they did agree to insure my CFI on the policy based on his 4400 TT and many hours in a -6A
 
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Speed in a -9

I had both these experiences when transitioning! I'm wondering if the latter is because with the bubble canopy, there aren't as many reference points for subconsciously watching the world whip by. Just a theory.

I should add that the -9's low speed handling is amazing to me. My buddy owns a 120, and couldn't believe how well the -9A handled at 60 knots. Airplane designers learned a lot 50+ years. :)

Biggest issue transitioning for me was dealing with how quickly the -9 gains or loses altitude in cruise. Combination of weight and speed I suppose. The Warrior never surprised me that way, the -9A was always trying to. Took a while to get used to.

You might also notice that after flying at cruise speed, the sensations of flying at pattern speed are that you're flying really slowly.

You may also find that judging airspeed in the pattern without looking at the airspeed indicator is harder than in other airplanes. I've observed this in some other RV-9 pilots, and it took me a while to be able to judge speeds in the -9. Then again, when I got my -9A, I was just starting to fly again after 8 months off recovering from extremely invasive spinal surgery.
 
My 9A varies in landing speeds a lot by weight. When I am really light 60 over the fence is good. At full fuel or weight its 67-70 all day. I never flare the bird. Just hold the nose a few degrees above the mains and let it set down. The 9A lands smoother and easier than any other bird I have flown. Crosswinds are a piece of cake too with that big rudder. What a hoot this plane is!
 
the 9A will continue to grow in it's popularity because it is an honest bird, easy to fly and does a lot of things well.
 
Speed

For my -9, I slow downwind just enough to add some flaps then add some power, over the numbers full flaps on calm day or max lift flaps on windy day and bleed power off with nose pointed downward. Level off and let her settle. Use the same approach with the twin. Seems to work ok. If I wait till final to get into the flap speed band, it’s not going to happen before the numbers if I maintain a stabilized approach. I liked the -6 for the higher induced drag spot landing technique. However, the -9 is a sweetheart as long as you respect that high aspect wing.
 
The RV-9(A) isn't "more slippery" than and RV-6(A).
The big difference is that the 9(A) with it's higher aspect ratio wing has less of an induced drag change with changes in AOA.

In simpler terms, the short wing RV's, particularly the 3, 4 & 6, have a large increase in induced drag as the AOA increases. This is particularly evident in the round out and flair if a full nose up flare attitude is attained for a normal minimum speed landing. Which means as the nose comes up in the flare, the speed bleeds off relatively quickly.

On the 9(A), the induced drag influence from increasing AOA is less, so excess speed in the round-out and flare will take longer to dissipate.

How similar or dis similar are the landing characteristics between a RV-9A and a RV-12?
 
Petes Video

Watch Pete's awesome video and then compare it to your RV12 landings. Or if, not flying yet, maybe a 12 driver will put their .02 in.
 
How similar or dis similar are the landing characteristics between a RV-9A and a RV-12?

I think they're very similar. It was the first RV I flew because a flight school nearby had one, and when I bought my -9A there was no surprises. Both easy to fly.
 
My transition CFI told me "there are many ways to lose altitude effectively on approach, especially to a long runway. There are NO ways to get that altitude back if you've come up short".

I've found that to be true. If full flaps doesn't get me to drop like a rock (rare, especially with a C/S prop), a forward slip will definitely do the trick.

His question on downwind-to-base every..single..time......"if your engine quit right now...could you make the runway?"
 
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I think they're very similar. It was the first RV I flew because a flight school nearby had one, and when I bought my -9A there was no surprises. Both easy to fly.


Is input on the stick, and rudder, and the resultant change, sensitivity wise pretty close?

What about if it's light turbulence aloft?
 
Thanks!

Thank you all for the responses. Sounds like minor differences, but still something you need to be mindful of.

CT
 
Same but different

I fly a fixed pitch -9A and have been trying a different approach that is working well. I plan to be at 80 knots abeam the numbers at idle, then add full flaps, pitch for 75 to 80, slow to 60 to 65 knots on final using the turn to bleed off speed, then cross the fence between 55 and 60. For short field I use 55 knots. From 55 to 50 knots the sink rate really increases and is a good way to get down on a high final. With a stall speed of 42 knots there is enough margin at mid weight. I used to fly the descent at 60 to 65, but it would glide forever and it pushes the pattern out.
 
Is input on the stick, and rudder, and the resultant change, sensitivity wise pretty close?

What about if it's light turbulence aloft?

The 9 may be slightly more sensitive in pitch but if there's a difference I can't remember it, they're so similar.

They feel and fly the same in turbulence. The ride is similar in turbulence...must be similar wing loading. Slightly bumpier than the 6,7,8 which have higher wing loading.
 
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