After asking some questions about oil pressure during aerobatics, I found the thread leading to more practical advice about RV limits, and how to fly aero's. Since all I fly is an RV and have just completed my first competition, and want to learn as much as I can about my RV7 and flying it well. I'd like to hear from others and any advice you have for those wanting to or experiences aerobatics in their RV's. My previous thread I found so helpful. "What is a safe oil pressure range for aeros?" due to the input from others.
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RV's and Aerobatics.
- Thread starter RV7DES
- Start date
Kahuna
Moderatoring
Safe range does not change with aerobatics.
WillyEyeBall
Well Known Member
acro is addictive and fun
Congratulations on your first contest, and I know the first step is always the hardest getting started. There is a new acro website with an RV section that would gladly help answer questions and provide motivation. www,aerobaticsforum.com It was posted previously on this forum.
You can e-mail me, and I would love to exchange RV specific lessons learned.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 Slider
Alabama
Congratulations on your first contest, and I know the first step is always the hardest getting started. There is a new acro website with an RV section that would gladly help answer questions and provide motivation. www,aerobaticsforum.com It was posted previously on this forum.
You can e-mail me, and I would love to exchange RV specific lessons learned.
Cheers,
Bill McLean
RV-4 Slider
Alabama
Being new to aerobatics I want to make sure what I do is safe. I can think of 3 things that are important to keeping Aeros safe, and in my limited experience I have learnt most of these 3 from pilots far more experienced than myself 1. My personal limits, including metal, physical, comfort and my attitude. 2. My planes limits. What my RV can do, what I need to look out for, and how I can improve my RV. 3. My experience. Learning from others and practicing maneuvers after good instruction.
I have only had my Aerobatic licence for 4 months and up until 5 weeks ago was only believing I could do Primary this year.
Since then I have flown with 8 different very experienced pilots, finding every opportunity to learn, I found I could go further. None of the eight I flew with had every flown in RV's and were impressed with handling and performance. I found myself short of answers with some of their questions regarding limits for my plane. They gave me so much more confidence, however I also found myself unsure about many things that would help me progress and enjoy my plane more.
Once I started practicing competition aerobatics, my first issue was oil usage. I was throwing out almost a quart of oil every 30min flight. A half Raven sump was fitted with a 1 Quart Accusump. Problem pretty much solved, with the next issue being how to stop brake fluid from leaking out over the fairings. Any ideas?
I received a lot of good advice from the forum that I discussed further with other pilots and engineers here, some specific to RV's, and some to Aero's. I intend to enjoy aerobatics in my RV7 for many years, and have great interest in learning from the many RV pilots that do aerobatics in their RV's. It is for now my machine of choice.
Safe Oil pressure: Agreed doesn't matter whether doing aero's or level flight. However I have never experienced oil pressure fluctuations in level flight, and knew this is a determining factor in operating my engine safely while under negative G's. So being new to the sport, had to ask the question. Interesting however after 5 sec without Flop tubes my engine was still running normally with negative G's.
I learnt some loose pressure in hammerheads and the prop would speed up. Just love these comments and learn so much.
New to the game, and I hadn't thought enough about how my non aerobatical prop would react when I lost oil pressure.
I am keen to enjoy my RV as much as possible safely using the knowledge of others as guidance, so put the questions out there. What have others learnt that they might share?
Thanks for the link http://www.aerobaticsforum.com is a great site.
By the way, it was never my intention to enjoy compertition aerobatics. I much prefer taking passages for rides and being really gentle on them. What I am hooked on, is flying my plane well. Which competition aerobatics gives me the best chance to do.
I have only had my Aerobatic licence for 4 months and up until 5 weeks ago was only believing I could do Primary this year.
Since then I have flown with 8 different very experienced pilots, finding every opportunity to learn, I found I could go further. None of the eight I flew with had every flown in RV's and were impressed with handling and performance. I found myself short of answers with some of their questions regarding limits for my plane. They gave me so much more confidence, however I also found myself unsure about many things that would help me progress and enjoy my plane more.
Once I started practicing competition aerobatics, my first issue was oil usage. I was throwing out almost a quart of oil every 30min flight. A half Raven sump was fitted with a 1 Quart Accusump. Problem pretty much solved, with the next issue being how to stop brake fluid from leaking out over the fairings. Any ideas?
I received a lot of good advice from the forum that I discussed further with other pilots and engineers here, some specific to RV's, and some to Aero's. I intend to enjoy aerobatics in my RV7 for many years, and have great interest in learning from the many RV pilots that do aerobatics in their RV's. It is for now my machine of choice.
Safe Oil pressure: Agreed doesn't matter whether doing aero's or level flight. However I have never experienced oil pressure fluctuations in level flight, and knew this is a determining factor in operating my engine safely while under negative G's. So being new to the sport, had to ask the question. Interesting however after 5 sec without Flop tubes my engine was still running normally with negative G's.
I learnt some loose pressure in hammerheads and the prop would speed up. Just love these comments and learn so much.
New to the game, and I hadn't thought enough about how my non aerobatical prop would react when I lost oil pressure.
I am keen to enjoy my RV as much as possible safely using the knowledge of others as guidance, so put the questions out there. What have others learnt that they might share?
Thanks for the link http://www.aerobaticsforum.com is a great site.
By the way, it was never my intention to enjoy compertition aerobatics. I much prefer taking passages for rides and being really gentle on them. What I am hooked on, is flying my plane well. Which competition aerobatics gives me the best chance to do.
Being new to aerobatics I want to make sure what I do is safe. I can think of 3 things that are important to keeping Aeros safe, and in my limited experience I have learnt most of these 3 from pilots far more experienced than myself 1. My personal limits, including metal, physical, comfort and my attitude. 2. My planes limits. What my RV can do, what I need to look out for, and how I can improve my RV. 3. My experience. Learning from others and practicing maneuvers after good instruction.
I have only had my Aerobatic licence for 4 months and up until 5 weeks ago was only believing I could do Primary this year.
Since then I have flown with 8 different very experienced pilots, finding every opportunity to learn, I found I could go further. None of the eight I flew with had every flown in RV's and were impressed with handling and performance. I found myself short of answers with some of their questions regarding limits for my plane. They gave me so much more confidence, however I also found myself unsure about many things that would help me progress and enjoy my plane more.
Once I started practicing competition aerobatics, my first issue was oil usage. I was throwing out almost a quart of oil every 30min flight. A half Raven sump was fitted with a 1 Quart Accusump. Problem pretty much solved, with the next issue being how to stop brake fluid from leaking out over the fairings. Any ideas?
I received a lot of good advice from the forum that I discussed further with other pilots and engineers here, some specific to RV's, and some to Aero's. I intend to enjoy aerobatics in my RV7 for many years, and have great interest in learning from the many RV pilots that do aerobatics in their RV's. It is for now my machine of choice.
Safe Oil pressure: Agreed doesn't matter whether doing aero's or level flight. However I have never experienced oil pressure fluctuations in level flight, and knew this is a determining factor in operating my engine safely while under negative G's. So being new to the sport, had to ask the question. Interesting however after 5 sec without Flop tubes my engine was still running normally with negative G's.
I learnt some loose pressure in hammerheads and the prop would speed up. Just love these comments and learn so much.
New to the game, and I hadn't thought enough about how my non aerobatical prop would react when I lost oil pressure.
I am keen to enjoy my RV as much as possible safely using the knowledge of others as guidance, so put the questions out there. What have others learnt that they might share?
Thanks for the link http://www.aerobaticsforum.com is a great site.
By the way, it was never my intention to enjoy compertition aerobatics. I much prefer taking passages for rides and being really gentle on them. What I am hooked on, is flying my plane well. Which competition aerobatics gives me the best chance to do.
I have only had my Aerobatic licence for 4 months and up until 5 weeks ago was only believing I could do Primary this year.
Since then I have flown with 8 different very experienced pilots, finding every opportunity to learn, I found I could go further. None of the eight I flew with had every flown in RV's and were impressed with handling and performance. I found myself short of answers with some of their questions regarding limits for my plane. They gave me so much more confidence, however I also found myself unsure about many things that would help me progress and enjoy my plane more.
Once I started practicing competition aerobatics, my first issue was oil usage. I was throwing out almost a quart of oil every 30min flight. A half Raven sump was fitted with a 1 Quart Accusump. Problem pretty much solved, with the next issue being how to stop brake fluid from leaking out over the fairings. Any ideas?
I received a lot of good advice from the forum that I discussed further with other pilots and engineers here, some specific to RV's, and some to Aero's. I intend to enjoy aerobatics in my RV7 for many years, and have great interest in learning from the many RV pilots that do aerobatics in their RV's. It is for now my machine of choice.
Safe Oil pressure: Agreed doesn't matter whether doing aero's or level flight. However I have never experienced oil pressure fluctuations in level flight, and knew this is a determining factor in operating my engine safely while under negative G's. So being new to the sport, had to ask the question. Interesting however after 5 sec without Flop tubes my engine was still running normally with negative G's.
I learnt some loose pressure in hammerheads and the prop would speed up. Just love these comments and learn so much.
New to the game, and I hadn't thought enough about how my non aerobatical prop would react when I lost oil pressure.
I am keen to enjoy my RV as much as possible safely using the knowledge of others as guidance, so put the questions out there. What have others learnt that they might share?
Thanks for the link http://www.aerobaticsforum.com is a great site.
By the way, it was never my intention to enjoy compertition aerobatics. I much prefer taking passages for rides and being really gentle on them. What I am hooked on, is flying my plane well. Which competition aerobatics gives me the best chance to do.
Thanks..
Thanks RV7DES for a detailed report. I hope to do some Aeros in RV-8 once it gets done as well and your experience is very useful.
One thing that I wanted to ask is what kind of seatbelt harness did you put in your RV-7? All the Aerobatic aircrafts I have flown have the ratchet system, and the thought of doing negative G figures (even -1 G like competition roll, half cubans etc.) makes me want to be held tight with a ratchet.
Most of the RVs on the other hand do not have the ratchet it seems ...
Ashish
Thanks RV7DES for a detailed report. I hope to do some Aeros in RV-8 once it gets done as well and your experience is very useful.
One thing that I wanted to ask is what kind of seatbelt harness did you put in your RV-7? All the Aerobatic aircrafts I have flown have the ratchet system, and the thought of doing negative G figures (even -1 G like competition roll, half cubans etc.) makes me want to be held tight with a ratchet.
Most of the RVs on the other hand do not have the ratchet it seems ...
Ashish
N355DW
Well Known Member
I agree. I have taught enough in Decathlons without ratchet systems that I want one in my -7, you can never get a pull system tight enough. Hooker only puts ratchets on dual lap belt systems, and I don't need that, so this is what I am using:
http://silverparachutes.com/acrobelt/
WillyEyeBall
Well Known Member
losing brake fluid
A friend showed me this method of minimizing brake fluid loss with acro. We made a small looping tube that looks like a shepard's hook and extends below the bottom of the brake reservoir. I still lose a little fluid probably during vertical maneuvers with rotations, but it's only about half the reservoir in 50 hours between oil changes.
Another friend only fills the reservoir about half full and caps it.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
Alabama
A friend showed me this method of minimizing brake fluid loss with acro. We made a small looping tube that looks like a shepard's hook and extends below the bottom of the brake reservoir. I still lose a little fluid probably during vertical maneuvers with rotations, but it's only about half the reservoir in 50 hours between oil changes.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
Alabama
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
I have taken PCV valves that are used in the older cars and used them for a plug on the brake fluid tank. Use the kind that has a hose nipple on it of the right diameter. Grind off the barb and them use a die to put threads on it. Remove the brass plug that Vans supplies and replace with the PCV valve. It only breathes in on direction. When upside down and negative G s the fluid stays in the tank and will breath again when right side up. Doesn't spill a drop.
RV7Ron
Well Known Member
I bought a "reservoir dog" for mine...this was recommended by Dan Checkoway way back in the day. Its basically just a check valve that closes during inverted flight. Not flying yet so I cant report on its performance, but its cheap and seems like a good product.
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Sorry no pictures, or part number. Just go to a auto parts store and get the parts person to show what he has. If you can. The plastic nipple is about one inch long and has one barb on it and about 3/8 inch in diameter.
You nailed it...or at least we attempt to fly well.
Sometimes we succeed, sometimes not. The satisfaction comes in learning the adjustments needed to fly well. The potential is limitless. Someone else said it better than me..."When you first start doing aerobatics with an instructor, it often seems thrilling. But once you master the basics and the safety issues, the thrill pretty well evaporates. What you're left with is challenge, mostly mental although physical precision and dexterity come into play as well. Among the many challenges are figuring out why the airplane isn't doing exactly what you want, then figuring out how to adjust, and then doing it. There are so many levels of challenge that you can spend most of a lifetime at it without running out. But there's no adrenalin rush - just satisfaction."
bret
Well Known Member
Why is there not a reservoir like on a master cylinder brake set up, so simple, look at how a simple set up is on an old Chevy, the cap gasket has an accordion style gasket for the lid, as fluid is used the rubber just moves down with the fluid. No fluid can escape......brain thinking thinking.....ok no body steal my idea, ok go ahead but I get royalties!
Hi Ashish. Seat belts actually I still only have a 4 point harness. My learning curve was so quick I invested in engine mods first. Next will get the adapter from Vans to convert to 5 point and get a Ratchet harness. I share a hanger with the only Super Decathlon in New Zealand, and he has a ratchet harness. Makes a big difference.
Thanks Bill for the photos of the brake reservoir piping. Gives me a few ideas. Thanks Ron for the link. The reservoir dog sounds like a great idea. Has anyone flown with it?
Stress on RV's subjected to lots of Aeros.
I contacted the team at Aerodynamix about things to look for in RV's when doing lots of aero's. Eric Sandifer had mentioned on a previous thread about loose stabilizer bolts. When I checked with them they said that bolts have loosened on several of their aircraft. Also that it can be detected with a preflight inspection. "Its easily detectable by grabbing your horizontal tip on your walk around.
You can see and feel it move when its loose."
These guys fly lots of aero hours in RV's so this is a particular area I will always check for my preflight.
Thanks Bill for the photos of the brake reservoir piping. Gives me a few ideas. Thanks Ron for the link. The reservoir dog sounds like a great idea. Has anyone flown with it?
Stress on RV's subjected to lots of Aeros.
I contacted the team at Aerodynamix about things to look for in RV's when doing lots of aero's. Eric Sandifer had mentioned on a previous thread about loose stabilizer bolts. When I checked with them they said that bolts have loosened on several of their aircraft. Also that it can be detected with a preflight inspection. "Its easily detectable by grabbing your horizontal tip on your walk around.
You can see and feel it move when its loose."
These guys fly lots of aero hours in RV's so this is a particular area I will always check for my preflight.
kinger
Well Known Member
Norman, Thank you for your time. I ended up purchasing a Reservoir Dog $15.95 + $2.50 s/h.
I have been using this method for over 30 years and it works fine. I have the reservoir from ACS screwed into the side of the master cylinder, fill it half way and put a plug in the top, never a problem that it isn't vented and no fluid loss. Obviously there are several vented solutions that will work, but no vent is necessary.
BillL
Well Known Member
Hi Merrill, I see you have the half-raven installed. Do you have a picture of where you mounted the separator tank? Do you also use the accumulator?
I sent and email, but it apparently did not get to you.
rv7charlie
Well Known Member
Just a thought on seat belts. If you're doing any negative stuff, or see any risk of falling out of a maneuver, how hard is it to add a 2nd lap belt?
Cheap insurance....
Charlie
Cheap insurance....
Charlie
ronschreck
Well Known Member
From the IAC rule book:
Dual seat belts with separate attach points and a shoulder harness are mandatory for
Advanced and Unlimited (power and glider) categories. The same equipment is strongly
recommended for Primary, Sportsman, and Intermediate power categories, but is not
mandatory except when IAC Technical Monitors deem them necessary for the sequence
being flown in these categories.
A second belt was easy to fit in my RV-8 but the RV-7 may require some head scratching to come up with a fix. A separate attach point is not required at the Primary or Sportsman level of competition and certainly not required if you are not competing.
Can any of you -6 or -7 pilots help Charlie out here?
rv7charlie
Well Known Member
Thanks Ron, but I'm ok. The reason I posted is that someone mentioned dual belts, but the idea seemed to be dismissed. I don't do negative stuff, but if I did, I'd certainly have a 2nd lap belt even if I had to use the same mount points. (Latch issues, sun damage, etc seem much more likely as problems than the mount points.)
Charlie
Charlie
So would I. It's still better than a single belt. With the double Hooker belt, I have accidentally unlatched one side while flying acro. Others have as well. We don't exactly have a rash of folks ejecting themselves from their airplanes, but I prefer not think about the consequences of a single belt and Murphey's law for those who venture into negative G territory, no matter how brief, and how low the G.
