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Taildragger?

This.

There's (almost) nothing more satisfying than when you're able to successfully grease the upwind main onto the pavement while keeping the darn plane rolling straight and then gently lowering the other main wheel down to the runway, and still keeping the rollout straight in a strong crosswind... especially when you've got an audience watching :p

Exactly! Ahhhhh... (now, back to riveting)
 
For those who haven't experienced the taildragger, maybe you have driven a car with a manual transmission.

You can change gears while accelerating, so quickly and smoothly that there is no lurch and on the downshifts you can revmatch so there is no loss of traction and the torque is there at exactly the right moment to accelerate out of the curve. You can anticipate and select exactly the right ratio for the situation.

Or...you can put it in D.

Yeah, D works, sort of, and it is less demanding.
 
The T-18 has a higher landing/stall speed and has a tendency to "come around" more so than the Van's series .... On the other hand the RV6 is so easy if you can't land it you will have trouble with any taildragger .... That said, dual time in a Citabria/Decathlon backseat will prepare you easily for the Vans ...
just my 2cents worth..... Mike
 
For those who haven't experienced the taildragger, maybe you have driven a car with a manual transmission.

You can change gears while accelerating, so quickly and smoothly that there is no lurch and on the downshifts you can revmatch so there is no loss of traction and the torque is there at exactly the right moment to accelerate out of the curve. You can anticipate and select exactly the right ratio for the situation.

Or...you can put it in D.

Yeah, D works, sort of, and it is less demanding.

Come on Larry, that's not fair. It isn't a performance issue and it only differs in one part of a flight, the part that ironically is on the ground. :)
 
I'm learning tail wheel on a Citabria 7GCBC for my private licence. How does the RV 9 compare?

One you get the hang of smoothly flying and landing the Citabria, then transition into an RV... you'll think the Citabria handles like a truck and the RV handles like a sports car!
 
Cessna

What do you think of a Cessna 120 or 140 as a training airplane in preparation for an RV?

@ Larry. Do you have a stick shift in your RV? That sounds kinda cool :)
 
Even on a normal day, you will see plenty of sketchy trike landings.

I will land a tailwheel RV or my Hiperbipe anywhere a similar nosewheel aircraft will go, and no one on board will even break a sweat. Safe and completely in control are the norm, not the exception.

Hmm. Must be a California thing. :) My home base has very high GA operations. (Highest towered GA operations in NC) Sketchy trike landings are rare enough that they are not a subject of common pilot conversation.

Point made about individual skill level. I tip my hat to you. Admitedly, I only have a year of RV under my belt, but in 150 landings since first flight, there were only 2 that were NOT greasers and that includes multiple 20G30s. I question whether most TWs can claim similar.
 
Hmm. Must be a California thing. :) ...

A couple of hours spent sitting in a lawn chair, drink in hand, watching Oshkosh arrivals is one of the most entertaining things a pilot can do. While I doubt they were all from California, THIS California pilot placed an RV-8 right on the center of the green dot on my first ever Osh arrival. That has nothing to do with exceptional skill - but it does have to do with the drive to be competent operating any aircraft I fly. Being competent means you don't have reason to "worry" about which end of the airplane the little wheel is on... You just land.

It has been a LONG time since I stared at a stiff windsock on short final and wished I was in a trike.
 
You can change gears while accelerating, so quickly and smoothly that there is no lurch and on the downshifts you can revmatch so there is no loss of traction and the torque is there at exactly the right moment to accelerate out of the curve. You can anticipate and select exactly the right ratio for the situation.

Or...you can put it in D.

Yeah, D works, sort of, and it is less demanding.

Well said. Fly whatever landing gear you want, but I think tailwheel pilots are more likely to "get" the point you are making about the elements of aesthetic, satisfaction, finesse, and operator involvement when it comes to skillfully handling machinery...not that trike pilots can't appreciate the same. I just think this more likely describes tailwheel pilots.

Admitedly, I only have a year of RV under my belt, but in 150 landings since first flight, there were only 2 that were NOT greasers and that includes multiple 20G30s. I question whether most TWs can claim similar.

You may have a different definition of what a "greaser" is than most. In my over 4,000 landings in mostly tailwheel airplanes, I can count on two hands the number of landings I would consider true "greasers"...as in those where you can barely notice the touchdown on pavement. And I have done many many more very good landings. But I reserve "geaser" for virtual perfection. There is no way you are that good or lucky unless your definition of a "greaser" is simply a decent landing. In watching airplanes land, I very rarely witness "greasers", whether they are trikes or tailwheels. But you are right, trikes ARE easier to land. Nobody is debating that. That's the whole REASON many prefer tailwheels. But I seriously doubt your claim of 148 of 150 landings being "greasers".
 
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For those who haven't experienced the taildragger, maybe you have driven a car with a manual transmission.

Or...you can put it in D.

Yeah, D works, sort of, and it is less demanding.

...This is a good analogy in the respect that once you learn to drive a manual you don't "worry" about driving a manual. You just drive. And because of these enhanced skills, any car with an automatic is "easy".
 
Point made about individual skill level. I tip my hat to you. Admitedly, I only have a year of RV under my belt, but in 150 landings since first flight, there were only 2 that were NOT greasers and that includes multiple 20G30s. I question whether most TWs can claim similar.

I can. And so should any competent conventional gear pilot.

It ain't superhuman stuff we're talking about here.

If you can't handle either type of gear setup competently then you should either practice until you can or find another avocation.

As another poster here always states.. just my .02 cent worth.
 
You may have a different definition of what a "greaser" is than most.

But I seriously doubt your claim of 148 of 150 landings being "greasers".

OK, I get your point about definition of greasers being the ultimate subset of good landings, however I do defend the intent of my statement from a landing quality point of view since I have done way more than a handful even in the restricted meaning. Unfortunately, neither position is provable over the internet. It has been commented here on VAF multiple times (and at hangar sessions) that it is a challenge to land a TW once per approach. That is also my experience as a passenger in TW craft.

Also, I want to make a point that I am far from being anti tailwheel even though it may appear so in some threads. I am not. Heck, I'm even rooming with one. :eek:

I am against selling them as the best thing since sliced bread. They have shortcomings just as the trikes do.
 
It has been commented here on VAF multiple times (and at hangar sessions) that it is a challenge to land a TW once per approach. That is also my experience as a passenger in TW craft.

I strongly disagree.. read my above post.

another .02 cents worth. Thanks Stein

Thanks Larry. I'm not very PC
Widget
 
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That's interesting, yet that's where I thought you were going. You have been tainted by a set of unusual experiences. Tailwheel airplanes are not THAT hard to master. Different skills, yes, but once you are competent, there's really not much challenge any more. I'll stick my -8 anywhere an "A" model can go without a second thought.
 
TW vs. Trike

I really miss flying tailwheel airplanes. Out of TW aircraft I have 981 hours in a Decathlon. A little time in an RV7, Champ and 185. I now have an RV-10 and love it......but I REALLY want a taildragger again. If they had an RV10 (4 seater) TW I would have bought it. I want a Highlander or something now. If you have a model in mind that can go either way, I would definitely go with the TW version. Just my opinion.
 
Greaser

While posting to a different place on this site I realized that I have absolute proof of a "greaser". Trouble is it was a tri-gear.

DSC06452.JPG.jpg


You have to look in the upper middle at "SNK-RT". 217 knots, maybe a touch fast.
 
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Yep, "0" sink rate at touchdown is the definitive "grease job".

Looks like he bled off more than 100 knots before setting the nosewheel down too.
 
...looks like he bled off more than 100 knots before setting the nosewheel down too.

One of the very interesting things about the Shuttle is that the nose MUST be actively lowered as the drag chute is trying to keep it in the air. If it is not forced down it will eventually come crashing down.

Remember when flying your RV(A) to hold that nose off as long as possible and when flying the Shuttle remember to do just the opposite.
 
Unlike Cub types tail wheel RVs have a wide wheel base plus short and low wings that give them low moments of inertia in both roll and yaw on the ground. Landing and roll out is the difference between balancing with you feet comfortably apart and your elbows tucked in compared with having a 10 foot plank strapped to our shoulders and your ankles tied together. :D
 
Having read the whole thread, I would like to add something that I went through
Just this past summer. I have been flying my 6 for over 8 years. My landing were a sight to behold for the first several hours. I learned to land it and am very happy with the plane. My son will be flying the 6 soon and I didn't want him to get scared of it after flying his Champ for several years. Long story short, I knew the CG was at the aft end of the range and was pitch sensitive. I added weight to the nose to move the CG forward. Made it a different plane.
When my son flew it the first time he said damm this is easy to land.
What I,m saying is, make sure the TD you want to build/fly is balances at the mid range of the CG. It really will make you learning experience
Enjoyable.
Rich
RV6 N721ET
 
One of the very interesting things about the Shuttle is that the nose MUST be actively lowered as the drag chute is trying to keep it in the air. If it is not forced down it will eventually come crashing down.
Remember when flying your RV(A) to hold that nose off as long as possible and when flying the Shuttle remember to do just the opposite.

According to Robert "Hoot" Gibson, Shuttle Commander, the nose-wheel must be actively lowered because the main gear alone will not support the weight of the shuttle.
 
Back to the OP question, I have a Throp T-18. It's light, has an O-290 and a wood prop. I recently replaced the starter with a SkyTech Flyweight starter, and re-weighed the plane. The battery is in the back so it has a somewhat aft CG. Landing does take some care for bouncing, drop ins, tailwheel first landings, and it tends to get swervy as it slows thru about 40, then it improves. We fly it out of a 2500 ft. grass strip.
My wife (CFII) got her tail wheel endorsement in it, but really struggles with it.
Our son Peter bought an RV-4, with 160 HP wood prop. Marilyn flew and landed it just fine. Now she wants an RV-4!
Over on another thread about 8TW landings, a poster with a T-18, 180 HP CS prop related different landing qualities, so I presume a heavier A/C with more forward CG would be quite different. I'll be moving the battery forward on mine and re-weighing it.
I just love EAA!! Our chapter (326) has electronic scales. You can weigh your plane as often as you like, for $20. I weighed my RV-8 and my T-18, then my son's RV-4. This is very worthwhile and can probably explain a lot regarding landing.
 
Not mentioned

Why not sign up for "Official" transition training? You can get with Mike in Oregon or Alex in Dallas. This way you can get the RV sign off in a taildragger for insurance and learn about them with some of the best in the business.

When I built my 7 I had NO tail time. I flew a few people in Cubs, Husky's and the like. Went up to Oregon and got the check out with Mike Seager. When my plane was done, I had an experienced RV pilot do the first flights. (Robbie Attaway).

Finally, I flew it. I was careful and watched cross wind scenarios, still do.

You'll be fine. I do highly recommend getting some official transition.
 
According to Robert "Hoot" Gibson, Shuttle Commander, the nose-wheel must be actively lowered because the main gear alone will not support the weight of the shuttle.

Well Mel.....I'm not exactly sure that's what Hoot might have said. A single main landing gear won't support the weight, so you can't land it in a sip, but the two main's together (assuming all four tires are still inflated) are fine to hold the weight until you get it on the main. Blow a main gear tire, and it gets MUCH more exciting!

Landing tail draggers? Just fly 'em like airplanes.... it's not that complicated - people used to solo Cubs with five or six hours in their logbooks, and no one thought anything about it. Don't let anyone psych you out!
 
...Landing tail draggers? Just fly 'em like airplanes.... it's not that complicated - people used to solo Cubs with five or six hours in their logbooks, and no one thought anything about it. Don't let anyone psych you out!

Yep, and they used to throw teenagers into P-51's and B-17's loaded with bombs and fuel and aim them at a hostile foreign land too.

...kind of takes the "hero" out of flying an RV, doesn't it?
 
right-hand

In every taildragger/stick aircraft I have ever flown, I flew with my right hand on the stick. I have a fair amount of time in these airplanes, and I see no need to change now, so I am setting up my -7 to fly from the right side.
 
In every taildragger/stick aircraft I have ever flown, I flew with my right hand on the stick. I have a fair amount of time in these airplanes, and I see no need to change now, so I am setting up my -7 to fly from the right side.

I worried about that. After about 20 seconds it never entered my mind again.
 
In every taildragger/stick aircraft I have ever flown, I flew with my right hand on the stick. I have a fair amount of time in these airplanes, and I see no need to change now, so I am setting up my -7 to fly from the right side.

This is about as big of a problem as driving a car from the left seat using left hand on wheel and right hand on gear stick, that is - zero problem.

In fact, every modern Airbus Captain flies this way.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/1100366/
 
In every taildragger/stick aircraft I have ever flown, I flew with my right hand on the stick.

I thought along similar lines when I first bought my -6... that I was going to add a left hand throttle mod since all my taildragger RV time was in the -4 and -8. After flying the -6 for a while, that's now completely unnecessary. I got accustomed to left hand stick / right hand throttle in pretty short order. After all, I had about 800 hours in my old Cherokee with my left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle. Flying a stick with my left hand did feel a bit weird at first, but I got over it and it doesn't matter anymore whichever hand is on the stick or throttle. An even funnier thing is that I can fly and land the -6 from the right seat just fine too, but I never ever quite got the hang of landing the old Cherokee nicely from its right seat :rolleyes:
 
In every taildragger/stick aircraft I have ever flown, I flew with my right hand on the stick. I have a fair amount of time in these airplanes, and I see no need to change now, so I am setting up my -7 to fly from the right side.

I often jump out of the -8 with its left hand throttle and jump directly into the Hiperbipe which has a right hand throttle. In fact, just last weekend, I flew the -8, Hiperbipe, and Rocket (L,R,L) back to back.

Certainly up to the PIC how they want their airplane set up, but its generally a non issue as far as "performance" goes.
 
I worried about that. After about 20 seconds it never entered my mind again.
I'm three years into owning a -6, flying it from the left seat. It still feels wrong, but i'm getting better at it. At least I don't pull power off when i'm trying to climb when i'm in formation anymore... :rolleyes:
 
This is about as big of a problem as driving a car from the left seat using left hand on wheel and right hand on gear stick, that is - zero problem.

In fact, every modern Airbus Captain flies this way.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/1100366/

Certainly up to the PIC how they want their airplane set up, but its generally a non issue as far as "performance" goes.



Well, yes and no. For just flying around I would agree it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. I was originally going to set mine up to fly normally from the left seat, but switch to the right just for aerobatic contests, as my muscle memory for everything aerobatic is all in my right arm, and I know I will be be much more precise in a sequence controlling with my right arm. If you don't believe me, go try to do a nice aggressive contest style four point roll, stopping exactly every 90 degrees, using full, or almost full, aileron input and back for each quarter roll. Try it right handed and left handed, I know which arm I will be better with.

After I thought about it a bit, I thought I might as well just fly it all the time from the right seat. Also, since the -7 has a push-pull control system and responsiveness like many acro planes, I just like being able to fly with my more coordinated hand. Especially in gusty FL crosswinds.

I also realize most of the taildragger issues concern rudder use and awareness, but I thought someone like the OP, who seemed a little unsure of a taildragger, might feel more comfortable flying it righthanded. Just a thought, it's definitely whatever works best for the pilot.
 
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For just flying around I would agree it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. I was originally going to set mine up to fly normally from the left seat, but switch to the right just for aerobatic contests, as my muscle memory for everything aerobatic is all in my right arm, and I know I will be be much more precise in a sequence controlling with my right arm. If you don't believe me, go try to do a nice aggressive contest style four point roll, stopping exactly every 90 degrees, using full, or almost full, aileron input and back for each quarter roll. Try it right handed and left handed, I know which arm I will be better with.

+1 there Damon. In the Pitts I once tried doing some basic maneuvers to competition standards flying with my left hand - level rolls, snaps, and rollers...and I can confirm how important muscle memory is! The left hand is only good for flopping around. :)
 
Well, yes and no. For just flying around I would agree it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. I was originally going to set mine up to fly normally from the left seat, but switch to the right just for aerobatic contests, as my muscle memory for everything aerobatic is all in my right arm, ...

Ok, I am one of the ones that says flying with the left hand is no big deal, and I do feel that way about the RV, but I don't do big deal aerobatics with it.

In a previous life of flying gliders a lot I made quite an effort to fly with the left hand and I could do it but was never quite as good that way. Flying in a thermal requires quite large control movements while in a 45 degree or so bank in turbulence while maintaining airspeed within a couple of knots while very near stall speed. I did some testing and found I could consistently get better climb rates while flying with the right hand.

So I guess I am partially withdrawing my previous statement. For absolutely the best precision, one hand/arm may be better trained than the other.
 
And I'll also concede the point that one hand may be better trained than another for contest quality aerobatics... But contest quality aerobatics is a LONG way from "just flying around" normal ops and the intent of this thread, I think.

Perhaps it is a result of my being stationed in England and driving on the wrong side for several years, but IMHO, it's one thing to set up your cockpit a certain way, and quite another to insinuate (directly or otherwise) that ambidextrous flying is difficult.
 
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And I'll also concede the point that one hand may be better trained than another for contest quality aerobatics... But contest quality aerobatics is a LONG way from "just flying around" normal ops and the intent of this thread, I think.

Perhaps it is a result of my being stationed in England and driving on the wrong side for several years, but IMHO, it's one thing to set up your cockpit a certain way, and quite another to insinuate (directly or otherwise) that ambidextrous flying is difficult.

I didn't mean to imply it was difficult, I was trying to say I can be more precise with my right arm. Isn't that a good thing when in a moving vehicle? One that is subject to sudden gusts of wind when moving at high speed when close to the ground and/or other hard objects? I may not need that precision for 99% of the time when "flying around", but wouldn't it be nice to have it if I needed it?

An RV has a much more responsive control system than any cable controlled aircraft, for me I just want to use that to the best of my abilities. It's also lighter than most, making it more susceptible to even moderate gusts, certainly much more so than an airbus, as another poster wanted to compare it to. I've flown GA and commuter aircraft with my left hand for a long time now, I know it can be done just fine. I also have plenty of time of flying spam cans from the right seat from my years of instruction, I'd say I am ambidextrous enough. From my experience flying aerobatics I know I can be more precise with my right arm if I need to be, so why not use it if I can all the time? In stick aircraft it's what I am used to as well. Why change it? Seems like a straightforward decision to me. But it's whatever the PIC wants to do, I understand that.

Please let me be clear - I don't mean to say or imply people who don't do this are wrong or irresponsible, it's just a decision I realized would work well for me. As far as the original intention of the thread, again, it was a simply a suggestion for someone who lacked experience in taildraggers as a way to feel slightly more comfortable.
 
We are getting a little off topic here, but for me, I like convention and standards.
Tandem is left hand throttle and right hand stick. Side by side is right hand throttle and left hand stick. I don't think it can be argued that this is traditionally the standard.
There are lot's of deviations from what could be considered a standard configuration so don't flame me just yet, and it is your airplane to build as you please. I personally would not be interested in an airplane set up differently, but I would be the first to volunteer if someone offered to let me fly it.
As one of my retired "jet jock" buddies likes to scowl whenever anyone complains about the set up of their aircraft, "just do that pilot sh...t and fly the airplane".
 
I flew in a bushby mustang for my first tw ride and it scared me literally to death. Then I flew in an Rv 9 and it was smooth and straight forward- referring to tw handling. I would not have hesitated to buy a tw Rv, and plan on having one someday.

I can't believe how many scary handling tw airplanes are out there.

That must have been a crooked Mustang II or something. I have flown in 3 different Mustang IIs, and and I own one right now, and they all have conventional tailwheel ground handling, comparable in my view to the RVs. And yes, I have flown several RV taildraggers and owned an RV-3 for a while....

Lots of Mustang IIs out there were built from plans rather than from kits, and so the quality of the construction can and does vary from great (my current Mustang is plans built, and the quality of the construction has garnered compliments and admiration from a local serial-RV-builder) to terrible. If the one you flew in ground handled so poorly, it was built wrong.

Cheers,
Jim
 
C-120/140 as Transition Plane

To the gent who asked about using the 120 or 140 as a transition aircraft, I will offer my experience as I have owned a 140 and an RV-8. When I first flew my -8, I had 25 hours of tailwheel time. I took transition training in a -6 prior to my first flight in the -8. I had no problem landing the -8 while in phase 1, but once I started adding sandbags to the rear seat as part of my phase 1, I discovered the -8 to be a totally different ship. Nothing scary, but I had to THINK about what I was asking of the airplane as I set up my landings. A pax makes a big difference, and a heavy pax can make the -8 a bit pitch-sensitive.
Now on the the Cessna 140 (A truly delightful aircraft by any standard...)
I found the 140 to be a bit more difficult to land than the -8 in any sort of wind due to its kite-like characteristics, higher cg and loooonnnng wing. The 140 landed at a crawl, so if things started getting crazy, you brought much less energy to the party.
The aircraft that I would say helped prepare me the most for the RV was the Grumman Cheetah. The landing speeds and short-final traits were similar, and in my opinion, short final is where you are most apt to set yourself up for failure in the RV series, nosewheel or tailwheel.
 
Gusty winds

Just a thought from a low experience 6 driver 120hrs +-:

Calm to moderate breezy days or stronger headwinds, Taildraggers way more fun and challenging!

Gusty/wind shear days for me equal stomach knot anticipation; not fun anticipating takeoffs and landings.


For you high timers, does that nervousness go away in gusty situations with more experience?
 
Just a thought from a low experience 6 driver 120hrs +-:

Calm to moderate breezy days or stronger headwinds, Taildraggers way more fun and challenging!

Gusty/wind shear days for me equal stomach knot anticipation; not fun anticipating takeoffs and landings.


For you high timers, does that nervousness go away in gusty situations with more experience?


Gusty/wind shear days require that you bring your "A game" in any airplane. But yes, eventually the distinction between a trike and a TD goes away with experience.
 
For you high timers, does that nervousness go away in gusty situations with more experience?
I wouldn't call myself a "high time" tailwheel pilot, at ~500 hours total, but 75-80% of that was in tailwheels, so I have a little more time than you. And even at my low time, I can say that yes, the nervousness goes away. You just fly the plane, no matter where the third wheel is.
 
New TW pilot experiences

This is an interesting post. I just purchased a -7 and love flying it. I went with a TW model because 1) the cool factor and 2) my retirement property in MO has a grass strip. I got my TW endorsement in a C140 and found the transition to the -7 very straightforward. Before my TW endorsement, I got my glider rating so I land gliders with my right hand with my left hand on the spoilers. I fly my -7 with left hand on the stick and my right on the throttle.

In glider landings, I was taught to land with minimal energy, landing slightly tailwheel first. I find wheel landing my -7 much easier as I don't bounce as much as when I try 3 point landings.

Oh, one more reason to fly tailwheels. Now I can get checked out in the glider club's Pawnee and tow gliders and build up some more tailwheel time.

One final note. When I insured my -7, I was told that a TW airplane has a 20% premium for me with low hours. More TW time (and Pawnee time) should help decrease my premiums next year.
 
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