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Removing ADS-B out?

FasGlas

Well Known Member
Is there a rule concerning removing an ADS-B out permanently? Or is it - Once installed it's in forever?
 
Remove it

Remove it, amend Wt&Balance, revise equipment list. It's just another piece of avionics.
A nice touch might be a placard: "ADS-B not installed"
 
Adsb

Sorry to say but I read the regs recently and yes once in you must keep it in. Also you need to have it on all the time. And yes the feds are watching. Just salivating to use the info to violate you. As they have done in the past. Even if you have a malfunction you must be able to show them. What it was, and when fixed. At least that’s my interpretation.

Hope this helps
RD
 
"but I read the regs recently and yes once in you must keep it in."
So, I just re-read 91.225, and nothing in there says an ADS-B out system can never be removed. If there is something else pertinent, please point me to it.
Thanks
 
Sorry to say but I read the regs recently and yes once in you must keep it in.
I'd like to see the source data on that interpretation as well. Combined, 91.225 and .227 say where ADS-B is required, that if it's installed it must be turned on, and how it's supposed to work. If you can live with the limitations of not flying into ADS-B airspace - at least without prior permission - then take it out, update your weight and balance, and fly on.

ds
 
Sorry to say but I read the regs recently and yes once in you must keep it in. Also you need to have it on all the time. And yes the feds are watching. Just salivating to use the info to violate you. As they have done in the past. Even if you have a malfunction you must be able to show them. What it was, and when fixed. At least that’s my interpretation.

Hope this helps
RD

Can't quite tell if this is slightly tongue in cheek....but....

If this were true, no one would be able to upgrade. That makes no sense.
 
Can't quite tell if this is slightly tongue in cheek....but....

If this were true, no one would be able to upgrade. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense because it isn’t true. It is the internet, where anyone can say anything. You have to check the facts, always.
 
Sorry to say but I read the regs recently and yes once in you must keep it in.

Wrong-O Buffalo. You were right on the fact if equipped it must be on at all times the aircraft is operated anywhere on the ground or in the air (even in the middle of nowhere). But nothing says you cannot turn an equipped aircraft back into a legal un-equipped aircraft.
 
Wrong-O Buffalo. You were right on the fact if equipped it must be on at all times the aircraft is operated anywhere on the ground or in the air (even in the middle of nowhere). But nothing says you cannot turn an equipped aircraft back into a legal un-equipped aircraft.

With this exception.......
You cannot remove the charging system to avoid the need of a transponder, to operate within the 30 nm Mode C "veil" around the Class B airports.
 
With this exception.......
You cannot remove the charging system to avoid the need of a transponder, to operate within the 30 nm Mode C "veil" around the Class B airports.

Care to quote a regulation that specifies this? It sounds just as questionable as the statement that you can't remove an ADS-B system once installed...
 
Care to quote a regulation that specifies this? It sounds just as questionable as the statement that you can't remove an ADS-B system once installed...

§91.215(b)(3)"..............any aircraft which was not certificated with an engine driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed....."

In other words if the aircraft has or has ever had an engine driven electrical system, you are NOT exempt from the transponder requirements.
 
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I have been wondering if you need a transponder in an electric airplane. An electric airplane has no engine driven electrical system so if I interpret the rules I would say no... . Anybody know the answer?

Oliver
 
Good Question!

I have been wondering if you need a transponder in an electric airplane. An electric airplane has no engine driven electrical system so if I interpret the rules I would say no... . Anybody know the answer?
Oliver

This is a question for the FAA types in Washington. I suspect that they will need to reword the regulatory requirements.
 
Wow. Talk about apples and oranges. This thread is about whether an approved ADS-B out system can be removed from an aircraft to become non-compliant, yet still airworthy and flyable outside of rule airspace. That is a completely different topic than the exemptions allowed for non engine-driven electrical aircraft.

So, for the question at hand about removing ADS-B. Yes you can. Of course then you cannot legally fly in Rule airspace without a temporary one-time ADAPT approval from Washington and carrying a print out of that approval onboard the airplane (online application and approval). Allegedly the ADAPT process removes ATC from making the call to allow you to deviate although many controllers will still accommodate.

So, for the issue about non engine-driven electrical system which the OP did not ask about but someone else mixed into the fray: As long as an airframe was originally certified with a non engine-driven electrical system, and has never subsequently been modified to add a engine-driven electrical system during it's lifetime, then the ADS-B exemption (Mode C veil) applies to these airframes. The Mode C veil is effectively history due to the ADS-B out rules incorporating a parallel exemption. So if you have a 1946 Luscombe originally delivered with a Continental A65-8 and no engine-driven electrical system and it has maintained the non engine-driven electrical system status uninterrupted for it's life it is exempt from the equipage requirement under Charlie and the Veil and hence under Bravo. However, if that same aircraft was modified in the early 1960's with a Continental C85-12 with an generator and then a subsequent owner in the 1980's decided to a complete restoration re-installing an A65-8 without engine-driven electrical system so the airframe is exactly as delivered by the factory in 1946 the airplane is still no longer exempt due to it's history of having flown with an engine-driven electrical system some time in it's previous life. So this might be where some here are confusing the non-electrical airframe exemption being a one way street might somehow bleed over to an equivalent interpretation of rule-compliant ADS-B equipment. It does not.

So the non engine-driven ADS-B exemption still won't allow a non-electrical aircraft to operate inside or out of a Mode C airport.

But then again why would it even come up with respect to our Van's aircraft? I might guess there may be one or two RVs out there that were certified without having an alternator or generator mounted on the engine and and maintained that status since new. But I doubt it.
 
"But then again why would it even come up with respect to our Van's aircraft? I might guess there may be one or two RVs out there that were certified without having an alternator or generator mounted on the engine and and maintained that status since new. But I doubt it."

In 1998, Van (his crew) built an RV3 with an O320 and ONLY a battery to start it. Finished unpainted weight was 709 lbs. Article is in The RVator fourth issue 1998.

It all depends on your mission.
 
Wow. Talk about apples and oranges. This thread is about whether an approved ADS-B out system can be removed from an aircraft to become non-compliant, yet still airworthy and flyable outside of rule airspace. That is a completely different topic than the exemptions allowed for non engine-driven electrical aircraft.

So, for the question at hand about removing ADS-B. Yes you can. Of course then you cannot legally fly in Rule airspace without a temporary one-time ADAPT approval from Washington and carrying a print out of that approval onboard the airplane (online application and approval). Allegedly the ADAPT process removes ATC from making the call to allow you to deviate although many controllers will still accommodate.

So, for the issue about non engine-driven electrical system which the OP did not ask about but someone else mixed into the fray: As long as an airframe was originally certified with a non engine-driven electrical system, and has never subsequently been modified to add a engine-driven electrical system during it's lifetime, then the ADS-B exemption (Mode C veil) applies to these airframes. The Mode C veil is effectively history due to the ADS-B out rules incorporating a parallel exemption. So if you have a 1946 Luscombe originally delivered with a Continental A65-8 and no engine-driven electrical system and it has maintained the non engine-driven electrical system status uninterrupted for it's life it is exempt from the equipage requirement under Charlie and the Veil and hence under Bravo. However, if that same aircraft was modified in the early 1960's with a Continental C85-12 with an generator and then a subsequent owner in the 1980's decided to a complete restoration re-installing an A65-8 without engine-driven electrical system so the airframe is exactly as delivered by the factory in 1946 the airplane is still no longer exempt due to it's history of having flown with an engine-driven electrical system some time in it's previous life. So this might be where some here are confusing the non-electrical airframe exemption being a one way street might somehow bleed over to an equivalent interpretation of rule-compliant ADS-B equipment. It does not.

So the non engine-driven ADS-B exemption still won't allow a non-electrical aircraft to operate inside or out of a Mode C airport.

But then again why would it even come up with respect to our Van's aircraft? I might guess there may be one or two RVs out there that were certified without having an alternator or generator mounted on the engine and and maintained that status since new. But I doubt it.

“The legal interpretation confirms that the same aircraft excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage requirement,” said Justin Barkowski, AOPA director of regulatory affairs. “That means aircraft subsequently equipped with batteries or an electric starter would not be required to equip for ADS-B Out.

So here is what AOPA says.... https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...uirement-clarified-for-nonelectrical-aircraft

And what the FAA says.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/do_i_need_to_equip/
 
ADS-B is not required for Class G airspace. Original question is once ADS-B is installed in TAIL # XYZ can you remove it or disable it.
Assuming EAB plane flown in class G airspace why not? I may have missed the answer.

Conflating the electrical system removal on a plane certified with electrical system to avoid transponder/ADS-B requirement to fly in controlled airspace is separate in my mind.

If you remove/disable ADS-B (and assume your Mode C transponder as well) you are going to be a Class G airspace only airplane.

What is the scenario you would do this, remove ADS-B. I guess I can think of a few, but you limit where you can fly. We know intentionally turning off ADS-B in airspace that requires ADS-B, is a no no. The weight of a small Mode C / Mode S transponder, GPS, antenna is not particularly heavy or big electrical draw. Even some no electrical gliders/sailplanes have transponders (because they fly in airspace that requires it, above FL180).

In the mind of FAA they can't image why you would not want all your flight activity to be monitored, regulations or not.

I would ask a FAA until I got a satisfactory answer backed up by regulations not opinion. Keep in mind your rank and file FAA inspector is not an oracle of all truth. The good ones will say they don't know and not make it up. Like all LAWS not every scenario and case can be anticipated and they must be "interpreted". No precedence exist, until someone gets violated and defends it in court. Then the court ruling or "interpretation" becomes the standard. However as with flight instruction in EAB and limited/restricted aircraft, the "precedence" can be wrong after decades.

Isn't FAR's fun.
 
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We know intentionally turning off ADS-B in airspace that requires ADS-B, is a no no.
.......
Isn't FAR's fun.

Actually, if an aircraft is equipped, then turning off ADS-B at any time or in any airspace or even on the ground while aircraft is operated (i.e. engine running) is not allowed per FARs. So the "always on" mandate doesn't distinguish between Rule Airspace and non-Rule Airspace or any Class. Once equipped it doesn't matter. Technically if you are on the surface at a remote Alaskan hunting lodge and you start the engine of your equipped aircraft your ADS-B out system must be on and operating. The ADS-B rule is very specific about this "always on" requirement. It's all a "no no". The written rule, yet preposterous.
 
So if the ADSB -out is not working or stops working, say on a cross country.
you are grounded until you or someone has it fixed/replaced.

Will
 
ADS B

I think the key is the wording "for purposes of avoiding detection". I see nothing in that statement that would prevent removing the equipment, either for repair or permanently.
 
So much confusion…

If your adsb fails enroute, just call ATC and request permission to proceed to your destination. See FAR 91.225.
If you are not equipped with mode C and ADSB-out, you are not restricted to just class G. Much of class E below 10,000’ is available.
The faa wants pilots to get used to having adsb on even when on the ground, as their ultimate plan, at least at large airports, is to fire the ground controllers and turn their job over to a computer, which needs adsb data to work.
 
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