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Thoughts on Zip Ties in engine compartment

Ward, may you explain to me please how to make those stand-offs? I would like the UHMW tape wrapping with the zip-ties installation and your stand-offs.

Thanks.
 
Stand-offs

Camillo,
I used 1/4" I.D. fuel line from an auto parts store and black zip-ties 8" long. Push one end of the zip tie through the fuel line, loop it around the wire bundle, then back through the fuel line and secure it around the engine mount tube or whatever you are using for support. I think that you want the connector end of the zip tie around the rigid support piece, not the wire bundle. You can cut the fuel line pieces to whatever length you like to make the stand-offs as long as necessary. Quick and easy, but, as I said, I wish I had thought about using the clear UHMW tape before I did this.
Hope this makes sense.
P.S. Love your website. I'm even learning a little Italian!
 
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But??. If you have any proof, please show it here and I will eat a broom (typical Dutch saying)
Will you accept pictures showing where cable ties have worn through the powder coat? I'm removing all cable ties FWF that bear directly on my engine mount, and will be replacing them either with Adel clamps or at the very least a wrap of self-vulcanizing rubber or silicone tape before a new tie-wrap goes on.

I've found half a dozen locations where the tie-wrap has worn through the paint. I don't want it to go any further.
 
Short standoffs give you more room in the engine compartment. Like for reaching for that oil filter. I tape the mount, then loop a tie-wrap around the mount and what I want to hold. Then take anothet tye-wrap and wrap it around the first tye-wrap between the tubing and the part that I want to stand off. I pull that tye-wrap down snug to make a ring stand off. Then finish setting the main tye-wrap. CHEAP, CLEAN AND LITE.
 
Mythbusters did a show on escaping from prison by using dental floss to saw through the iron bars. Using a motor to run the floss for hours the best they were able to do was a slight polishing of the steel. I suspect their results would have been the same if they were using Zip Ties.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with the zip ties cutting into the mount. I don't like the fact that they are not as strong as Adel clamps. Plus they are not nearly as fun to install as clamps. Especially in a cold Wisconsin hangar.

VDPIPER's picture looks GREAT to me. I am going to use both clamps and ties.
 
......I don't like the fact that they are not as strong as Adel clamps........
Tony,

You'll have to convince me that strength is a legitimate issue. In a firewall forward application, zip ties are far stronger than required to do what they are asked to do. Weight is a much greater issue. Weigh a zip tie. Weigh an Adel clamp. To be completely fair, you MUST include the weight of a bolt or screw and washer and nut used to attach that adel clamp. Oftentimes, an adel clamp is the only way to go. But if the application is acceptable, I'd much prefer to use 10 zip ties than ten adel clamps. Certainly, some people will always quibble and challenge the overall weight advantage. What they fail to understand is in the aggregate and taken over the course of the build, seizing any and every opportunity to shave weight however slight, will pay off. Striving to eliminate unnecessary weight is a frame of mind, not an isolated incident.
 
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enginecompartmentstando.jpg
Is there an actual need for the normal wires to be stood off the mount? Obviously the steel braided wires should be kept away from the mount, but I'm wondering if it would be acceptable to wrap the mount tube with 2 wraps of silicone rescue tape, then wrap the wire bundle with the same piece of tape directly to the tube (with the 2 passes of tape between teh tube and wires). Do this every 3" or so, and I would think you would have a tidy, secure wire run that would give you maximum access to other areas. Thoughts?
 
Wow!

As a totally scarred A&P working on EVERYTHING from 757 & big G down to PA22's using actual baling wire to hold the radio stack (tubes), I find the core of this argument to be invalid. Newbies take note: We're not all like this. I've seen adel clamps chafed through engine mounts. I've seen P lines on multimillion buck turbines adel clamped to death every 6 inches with holes mooned in them from touching something cause the whole pile twisted. I've also seen 60-70 year old aeroplanes with copper tubing friction taped directly to a mount tube by the factory 3 generations ago & it's fine. This same craft would likely have a 6 pound 1/2 inch dia. braided ignition harness feeding it's massive 45 HP putt putt. Last thing like this made me mad was a 340 with new engine monitor harnesses wrapped in mik jug spyrogyra. By the time it got home to me, the spiral had completely melted into the new JPI harness along the side cowls and fused it into a unit. Each instance is different. Just don't do anything stupid, think beyond "never ever" and "Get er done".
 
For What It's Worth

Not going to get into the debate whether it's right or wrong to use them or not, but will tell of an experience when showing my plane at an EAA event.

I was told by judges that having zip ties firewall forward was against FAA regs. Mine were done just like the photo with the silicone tape wrap around the tube and the hose stand-offs.

Just as a reference I was also told having nylock nuts firewall forward was against FAA regs even though they were on the cold side and the regs say they are OK to use up to 230 degrees(if my memory serves me correctly).

I was also told my "N" numbers were illegal as they were on the rudder.

Now just to let you know my airworthiness was issued by the FAA not a DAR and they said everything was outstanding on the airplane.

I've also seen, at events, judges say that Torque Seal installed on the threads is a no no as it will(supposedly) corrode the threads and cause a failure. The Torque Seal had to be on the outside of the nut, not the threads.

So, all I'm saying is that if you are planning on showing your airplane you might want to consider what you use in that regard.
 
......I was told by judges that having zip ties firewall forward was against FAA regs........
That statement makes absolutely no sense to me. According to those judging standards, Lycoming has been wantonly violating FAA regs for years because the hardware bag it includes with each new engine purchase contains a generous number of zip ties. A few zip ties are even installed on the shipped engine. Are we to suppose those judges more technically informed than Lycoming?

o9ih69.jpg



If what you claim is true, those judges are merely enforcing a capricious, arbitrary standard designed to massage their collective sensibilities. If it gives them the warm and fuzzies, fine. It is after all, their game, their rules. But a line is crossed when anyone, including a beauty contest judge shamelessly claims it is "against FAA regs."

BTW, check out the picture in latest edition of Plane and Pilot magazine. What is apparent (given the timely resurrection of this thread) is that the Plane & Pilot FWF restoration includes plentiful use of zip ties and some are even used in places you might not expect:

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/maintenance/upgrade-your-plane-part-iii.html
 
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After reading thru most of these posts one thing really stands out. No one has mentioned the proper way to install ty wraps. Maybe the problems you are seeing is because the wiring is running parallel with the mount tubing ty wrapped with one ty wrap. Of course this method will present a problem.

Adel clamps are the best but not always practical.

So..... whenever ty wrapping always use 2 ty wraps. One goes around the wire and tubing and the other goes around the ty wrap between the wires and tubing to form a figure 8. This way the ty wrap is very tightly clamped to the tube and the wires are tightly hung away from the tubing.
 
It not just plastic

I think one thing that hangs people up on this wear question is that they look at a ziptie and think: "plastic", and plastic is "softer" than metal and so it will not wear metal. The hi-temp ziptie, however, is Nylon 6/6. Think: ballistic fiber. Nylon is very strong and very abrasive and if relative motion occurs between nylon and metal the nylon will absolutely wear the metal (and the metal will wear the nylon). This is not new engineering and it is well documented, however, there are many variables (oil and dirt ?, etc...) that affect the wear rate that it is entirely conceivable that one may not see any wear while someone with seemingly the same situation might see lots of wear.

Kerry Stevens
M.E.
 
Pictures please!

So far I have seen certified engines with Zip-ties, I have seen certified aircraft with zip-ties, but still no pictures of the claimed damages!!!

Anybody??

Regards, Tonny.
 
So far I have seen certified engines with Zip-ties, I have seen certified aircraft with zip-ties, but still no pictures of the claimed damages!!!
Okay, okay, enough already... Here are photos of mine... Taken during the swap to Adel clamps. The ones I couldn't swap I changed to a combination of a sacrificial electrical tape layer plus a new zip tie on top:

http://picasaweb.google.com/rob.prior/20100211TieWraps

In all cases except for the one on the firewall where you can see a little bit of rust, the tie wraps had oil trapped under them when I removed them.
 
A buddy is installing a new O-320 on his Pacer, so being interested in making a "hangar inspection/stop work" visit (and because the engine used to be mine), I checked it out. The FWF was beautiful, including the brand new engine mount. I asked him about the new mount because the O-320 swap should not have required one. Turns out that once the engine was stripped off and the old mount was inspected, it was found to be worn beyond limits in a few areas... Can you guess what caused the damage?

...Zip ties.

No pictures available and I didn't see it for myself, but I don't think the guy made up the story to justify buying a new mount.

Just another data point...
 
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Inspected at 283 hours...

I have a short handful of zip ties holding light weight items like the blast tubes. No sign of chaffing, wear, or even a minor scratch on the motor mount. Paint is perfect.
If someone lets anything go long enough to saw through the powder coating or paint, then long enough to actually saw into the steel, shame on them....
 
Is no one else amazed that a simple topic like zip-ties could spawn a thread with 72 posts ?!? (now 73!) Talk about a topic with legs ... :eek:
 
If someone lets anything go long enough to saw through the powder coating or paint, then long enough to actually saw into the steel, shame on them....
You're right, but the catch is noticing that there's a problem. Two of the ties I removed were snug and wouldn't move by hand, but one had rust under it that wasn't visible until the tie was removed. The other had exposed metal, and some oil. Neither the metal nor the oil were visible until the tie-wraps were removed to check.

They hold quite well, and the tie-wraps themselves showed no signs of deteriorating in the engine compartment, despite being both white and having plastic tabs. I even used some new ones that look just like it when I cleaned it all up. But I did put a sacrificial layer under them this time.
 
Finally proof !

Snowflake,

Finally some proof! How many hrs.? You obviously removed the adel clamps to check under there as well, right??!! Any damage under them?

Regards, Tonny.
 
The key to this whole debate that people seem to be missing is that zip ties move relative to the structure, while correctly installed adel clamps don't (hence the term "clamp"). Remember, it's the oil and grit that does the damage, not the plastic zip tie. A poorly installed adel will saw through an engine mount just as a zip tie will because it too will accept oil and an abrasive. The difference is, a zip tie is NOT a cushoined clamp like an adel. Once again, a servicable, correctly installed adel clamp will NOT move, therefore can NOT do damage. The same cannot be said of a ziptie (unless you add a few extra steps).

Sure, the zipties work in some cases, just as bolts and nuts from Home Depot might work in some cases, but that does not mean they are a direct substitute for the right stuff. Use zipties if you like, just don't try fool yourself or others into thinking they are a newer, better version of an Adel clamp, because they aren't.
 
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again, since there are no regs concerning this issue... The statement about using "the right stuff" is personal preference only.
 
Finally some proof! How many hrs.? You obviously removed the adel clamps to check under there as well, right??!! Any damage under them?
Nope, there were no Adel clamps on my engine mount before I bought the airframe. I removed the tie wraps, and installed Adel clamps. Tie wraps were (as far as I know) original, and the airplane has approximately 500 hours on it.
 
Another option...

...not suitable for motor mounts, but this thread is for all ties FWF.

These seem to be a new product at our local Home Depot aviation department, and might be suitable for some locations - attaching firesleeve to hoses would come to mind.

About 60 cents per tie IIRC - haven't used them yet...

SS-ties.jpg
 
I like how they were careful to add "UV Resistant" to the stainless steel cable ties. Maybe they should put "corrosion resistant" on the Nylon ones. :)
 
White Zip tie damage after 500 hours.

Rivethead, you seeing it is not enough! ;) Still awaiting proof!

Regards, Tonny.

Here is a pic of my RV-4 engine mount after 500hrs with white zip tie damage. Many of the zip ties just crumbled. This one was still holding strong. Fortunately just wore powder coat off and just got to the metal.

Jerry
RV-4
N190CB
 

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I use these ones on my engine mount tubes on my RV4:

https://griplockties.com/

I camped next to the inventors at Airventure 2019. That’s the first I had heard of them. He gave me a couple to try. I ended up buying a couple bags in different sizes. The red silicone rubber protects the mount tube, and they are high temp. You can also release them until you get everything right where you want it and cut the tail off.
 
I use these ones on my engine mount tubes on my RV4:

https://griplockties.com/

I camped next to the inventors at Airventure 2019. That’s the first I had heard of them. He gave me a couple to try. I ended up buying a couple bags in different sizes. The red silicone rubber protects the mount tube, and they are high temp. You can also release them until you get everything right where you want it and cut the tail off.

Mike Patey must have been that guy, huh?

https://griplockties.com/mikepatey/
 
I use these ones on my engine mount tubes on my RV4:

https://griplockties.com/

I camped next to the inventors at Airventure 2019. That’s the first I had heard of them. He gave me a couple to try. I ended up buying a couple bags in different sizes. The red silicone rubber protects the mount tube, and they are high temp. You can also release them until you get everything right where you want it and cut the tail off.

Scott ~ thank you for posting that link
 
I use both Adel clamps and Zip ties FWF. The Zip ties I use are the blue Tefzel ones, good to 300 degrees. Bought mine from Stein back in the build phase.
No problems with DAR or A&Ps. And they complement my Blue motor.
 
Zip tie "witness marks" on engine mount

The original builder of my -8 used zip ties to hold wire bundles to the enging mount. They held up just fine in the environment but in all locations they made their mark (literally) on the mount. Pic attached of the "railroad tracks" that are cut into the paint.

Most were replaced with clamps at the first condition inspection I did. In areas where zip ties remain, the engine mount was locally wrapped with either self-fusing silicone ("F-4"/Rescue) tape or fiberglass tape to give the zip ties something else to dig in to. Holding up fine so far with no more "railroad tracks."

FWIW, I also give my wire bundles a couple of wraps with fiberglass tape to protect them in the areas that are being secured with zip ties. Some wiring insulations are tough enough that it's belt + suspenders protection. However, some FEP (Teflon) insulation on avionics data cables will chafe if you look at it sideways. Add a bit of vibe and you're cutting through before you know it.

These griplock ties sound like they'll kill multiple birds with minimal stones. I ordered a bag and am eager to put them to the test.
 

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