When do you walk away? Or do you!

Countless articles have been written in numerous aviation magazines discussing safety. We know that flying an airplane is risky and accidents do happen and I personally have lost several friends in fatal accidents.

I have met Rick Grey and hope he has a speedy recovery. However, I also know that this is Rick's second major accident that I am aware of. His first was when he had to put that FI Rocket down in a neighborhood just after take off and now this RV 10 crash with it's resultant injuries.

How many of these events does one undergo before we ask ourselves if it is worth being killed, in doing something we obviously love to do? What are our responsiblities to our families and children and significant others?

I know that life and living is a risk. I teach the subject and try to help people prevent having any accidents and even I engage in risky activites like motorcycle riding, have tried hang gliding, bungee jumping, and other things. But is there a time that after so many close calls one decides to give it up? If you can.

Personally, I am allowing one major happening that I walk away from that is the end, no more. Whether I follow my own advice or not remains to be seen.

Dr. Allan Stern
Professor Marshall University
RV 8A Flying

If you crash your car do you stop driving? As a Dr. (assuming MD) if you loose a patient do you stop practicing medicine?

I see your point along with the premise of your question, but I think after each event one needs to assess and evaluate the situation and decide for themselves. I can only imagine the amount of paper work if you loose a lot of patients.

I have lost several friends also. Personally, I have had "the talk" with my wife and 3 married daughters. I have raised them well, and it is my choice to take the risk.

Do any of us quit driving after we have a car wreck? What about two of them?

Did you quit after the second time you fell off a bike? Roller skates?

Interesting question Allen. It depends on a persons tolerance for risk and their own set of values - as well as their ability to learn from mistakes.

I think that for me it would all depend on the REASON for the mishap (accident, crash, whatever you want to call it). Is there a PATTERN to the events? We have all heard stories of pilots with numerous crashes behind them and all were pilot error, and wonder "when is he going to give it up?!" Then again, there are guys like Jimmy Doolittle who crashed lots of airplanes - but they were all experimental, and they were just trying to figure things out!

I think that if you see a pattern developing in anything that trends towards the dangerous, you need to see how to break the pattern. The problem is, the folks that will do that can easily see the patterns and fix it or quit if they can't . the ones that aren't able to see the pattern don't understand the concept anyways, and will keep going on blindly until they fall over the edge and their luck runs out.

There tens of thousands of rivets in an RV - you don't give up on the build when you set a bad one, do you? Nope - you drill it out and do better the next time!

Paul

The answer can be expressed as a very rational equation:

Risk =< Reward

If false, quit.

If I expand on the concept will I get tenure?

DanH said:

The answer can be expressed as a very rational equation:

Risk =< Reward

If false, quit.

Click to expand...

Brilliantly simple and yet so true!

Of course, it is really PERCEIVED risk vs. PERCEIVED reward, hence the tradition that the other guy didn't really have "the right stuff" but I do (and, therefore, don't have the risk).

For me, I simply think that when the time comes, I will know. I rode motorcycles on and off for 40 years, and when I sold my last one a few months ago, I knew it was time. I guess the other side to that coin could be getting the bug again and going back out and buying another one! Glenn

when to quit

This may not be accurate, but it's what I believe. We are born with two natural fears. Those fears are loud noises and falling. You can scare a newborn by making a loud noise. You can also hold it comfortably in your hands and quickly allow it to fall by moving your hands toward the floor. It'll scare it to death. Unfortunately, most of the time an airplane accident involves both of these natural fears. All other fears are learned. We drive daily with closure speeds in access of 100 MPH only a few feet away from oncoming cars. We've all had friends that have died in car accidents, but we continue to drive. Accidents happen; it's just part of life. I think that the idea of falling from the sky in an airplane is very worrisome to most of us. I guess it should be, but as stated many times before, "everybody dies, but very few really live". I'm with Dan; the risk is less than or equal to the reward. I gotta fly. When my ability starts to wane, I'll give it up.

Only you

Allan Stern said:

Countless articles have been written in numerous aviation magazines discussing safety. We know that flying an airplane is risky and accidents do happen and I personally have lost several friends in fatal accidents.

Click to expand...

Only you can answer that question. Most know the answer, some will hear it and others will not. My Dad rode motorcycles most of his life, at 57 years old he quite. A young age to stop doing something you love. He knew when it was time to quite. I ride bikes also, have had 3 crashes in 30 years. I still ride almost every day....in AZ....with all the snowbirds. Maybe I should quite riding.

Maybe if you are thinking about getting hurt more often than you would normally, maybe that's the time to quit.

As Paul said, an interesting question.

I'm asking myself that right now. When I sold my Yankee to concentrate on building my RV, I realized that I really didn't miss flying all that much. It was more than a little disconcerting to admit that, given that I really, really enjoyed flying. I regularly asked myself why I was devoting so much time, effort and money to this project if I didn't miss flying.

As I posted after my first flight in Smokey two years ago, I faced the demon when I pointed the spinner toward the runway's centerline for my first takeoff. It was either balls-to-the-wall and fly or taxi back to the hangar and sell it. I chose to fly.

However, with 170 hours on the Hobbs now, I realized that when I last flew on Sunday it was out of obligation -- I was mowing grass at the airport and felt guilty that I wasn't flying. There isn't a pilot at our field who wouldn't LOVE to fly my RV, after all, and I was riding around on an old Ford tractor. Moron.

So, I flew around for 0.7 hr and enjoyed the flight -- severe clear, smooth and cool. Smokey was running strong. But I didn't fly because I really wanted to, and that may signal the end of my run. We'll see...

And before I get inundated with PMs from potential buyers, I'm not selling Smokey! However, I think I could and not miss flying all that much. I guess at that point, the equation tilts more toward risk than toward reward, huh?

Or, more likely, it's not even part of that equation in my particular case. By nature, I always tend to want to be somewhere other than where I am, doing something else. Like right now ... I'd much rather be outside flying than be inside at work.

Maybe I'm just getting the itch to build something else ...

Give it up?

This was the reason for the post to see what sort of discussion it would generate. I teach the field of occupational safety and risk is what safety people manage. Eliminate those you can and for those you can not you manage them. Smoking will kill you. You do not have to smoke.

It had not crossed my mind about cars. That most people do not give it up after a crash, you go right back too it. Although with a car, you are not falling out of the sky and traveling at a lot lower speed. But driving a car is the most dangerous activity one can do in life. Number one killer for ages 16 - 24 and statistically flying is safer. And your flight training in handling emergencies will hopefully achieve a positive outcome. But the danger is always at the back of your mind.

I am sure we will have a lot more posts on this discussion.

Life is a sexually transmitted disease that is always fatal. I will live the time I have left to its fullest and, for me, that means flying as much as possible.

when to quit

Like many of you, I rode motorcycles for almost 50 years. I had two significant crashes. It was after the last one while I was in a hospital bed talking with my surgeon that the thought of giving up motorcycles first entered my mind. He was explaining that the internal bleeding had stopped except for the spleen. If it stopped bleeding I could keep it, if not they would remove it.

I enjoyed motorcycles and had a great time riding them all over the world. A couple of years ago I rode a Harley through the alps and spent a week riding in Italy. I considered all the people I knew or knew of who died on motorcycles, there are actually quite a few.

I applied the analysis that DanH suggested and concluded that I will probably sell my motorcycles except for the 71 Triumph that I bought new (and crashed in France 2 weeks later). It is time to quit and I know it. I bought a convertible.

When I apply the risk v pleasure/reward analysis to flying, it still comes out in favor of flying. I love flying. The risk involved in flying is acceptable for the enjoyment it gives me. Who knows, that may change.


Sitting on the front porch in a rocker waiting to die of natural causes is not in my life plan.

DanH offers an interesting equation that is clearly true on some level and worthy of consideration...but the data are empirical at best and utterly subjective at worst. As an analytical tool, it isn't helpful to me but subjectively, it is helpful.

Dr. Stern's evaluation process has a faulty notion that somehow one should quit after an accident. All things being equal, the probability of a second accident is the same as the first accident. Paul Dye's analysis gets closer to the heart of what might have caused the first accident when he asks if bad habits coming in to play, is there a training deficit, is there some inherent risk (as in Doolittle's experimental planes), or perhaps there's something else that caused the accident (a part failure, weather, etc.).

It seems to me the time to evaluate and decide whether to fly is before you fly, not after you have an accident. Pilot training and behavior can prevent many accidents. Proper building techniques and aircraft selection along with sound maintenance all reduce the chance of an accident. Nothing brings the risk factor to zero but it can get pretty low. When I last checked about 10-12 years ago the top two GA killers were hotdogging/showing off and accidental flight into IMC. I thought I could avoid those problems and decided the risks were small and my enjoyment great (DanH's equation). I knew then and still know that there's a risk to darn near everything I do - flying, driving, boating, hunting, etc.

It seems to me, assess the risk before you go flying - and to some extent that means both a big picture analysis (where you talk about the risks with family) and for each flight - am I physically and mentally prepared to fly the mission safely? The problem with doing the analysis after the first accident is flying is unforgiving of errors and you do not always get a second chance.

Bad motorcycle accident last year. Cycle totaled, and I thought I was done. Now I want another one. Wrecked the RV6A last month (no one hurt). Thought I was done, but now I really miss it . Sadly, there has now been two airplane crashes & three fatalities near my home..........just recently. One was yesterday. And even though I think about the subject of this thread, I still want to fly. I've lost numerous friends and acquaintances in the past. Same thoughts went through my mind......then.

L.Adamson

Crashed my motorcycle being stupid... at Sturgis of all places... and all on video tape too. Healed up and started taking flying lessons, but never completely quit riding.

Nine months after passing my checkride, and two months after buying my first airplane, a good friend who I went thru flying school with, who also just bought his first plane too, lost engine power and stalled/spun it into the field a half mile from the approach end of the runway. I helped pick up the broken remains of his plane from the field and load it onto a trailer. The day after his funeral, I rode my Harley to the airport, climbed right back into my Cherokee and went flying.

Risk =< Risk Management

DanH said:

The answer can be expressed as a very rational equation:

Risk =< Reward

If false, quit.

If I expand on the concept will I get tenure?

Click to expand...

DanH, I loved this quote. Its simplicity is genius.

However I think the decision making process on this is more about handling the risk not being rewarded by it. I bet you all the people that have died in these accidents people talk about were enjoying the risk, but their managment of it was not so great.

Its often the thrill or the "reward" that makes you go for more risk. More than you planned. I trade Foreign Currency and sometimes the difference between good profit and breaking even is leaving out that last trade that was pushing it too far and was too much risk.

The same goes for motor cycles. Most people crash because they want to make it exciting rather than because they were being sensible and driving it like a family station wagon.

I say you give it up when your no longer interested in being a professional risk manager. Whether its because you don't care any more or you care about the adventure and exitement more than you do about common sense.

Its about the thing that kills you, the risk, not the reward. As long as you strap in caring deeply about the professionalism of your risk management, your allowed to keep going. If not.. watch out and that goes for all of us.

A few close friends know this but now all of you do: I've been hit by, not one, but TWO drunk drivers and also survived a freeway shooting (ricochet off both the door frame then my head; early 90's Los Angeles area).

Wake up every morning, be thankful then enjoy your life that day Rosie

Here we go again!

When will you quit? A better question is when will you start. All pilots will quit but only a tiny fraction of people ever start flying. If you are a pilot and are even considering the question of quiting because of some mystical belief in fate catching up with you instead of evaluating the hard facts of cause and effect it is probably time to hang it up.

Bob Axsom

DanH said:

The answer can be expressed as a very rational equation:

Risk =< Reward

If false, quit.

Click to expand...

Here's a corollary...

0 Risk = 0 Reward

"What kind of man would live where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." Charles Lindbergh

Annoying threads

I for one am getting annoyed by these types of threads which suggest to us all that we should give up something we enjoy because of 'risk'.

What is it with these people who want to sanitise and confine what we do to the mundane and boring, but safe. Dont they realise that no where is safe, doing nothing will not prevent us dying or getting injured.

If you lie in bed all day you will start to ache, eventually you will get bed sores which if untreated could get infected and kill you. If you eat too much you will get obese, run the risk of heart disease. Ride a horse you could fall off. Whatever you do has an associated risk!!!! Even breathing air can give you an infection which could kill.......... should we all stop breathing.

The point to give up is obvious, when you are no longer capable or willing. End of!!!

So please stop putting these threads on which suggest the risk outwieghs the reward because if anyone thought it did they would have given up flying anyway! If your not happy doing then stop, don't try to convince others to stop in the process.

RISK

"Life without risk is no life at all"

Would you never take a test because you were afraid of failing? No. You would study harder and give yourself the best opportunity for passing. Same thing with flying. It is a risk that you must face head on if you want to really live life. Don't do anything that you are not comfortable with. Mitigate the risk, enjoy the reward.

Now if it would just stop raining so I could go flying

WAM120RV said:

I for one am getting annoyed by these types of threads which suggest to us all that we should give up something we enjoy because of 'risk'.

Click to expand...

I was extremely annoyed last evening. One of our local TV news stations ran a report, regarding the crash of an "experimental" plane, just past the airport boundary, in a soccer field. They interviewed a dad, who stopped by the accident scene, with his two children. They mentioned the two recent crashes close to this airport (both experimentals, a RV6A & Pulsar),... and this father insinuated that the airport should be closed. He says "what will it take? A crash into a house, before officials do something?". They farther suggested the "experimentals" should be investigated, as the FAA appears to be too lax with this type of aircraft. In other reports, the term "homemade" is used often.

The airport has been here since WWII. It's a reliever for Salt Lake International. It use to be all country out here....until people like ME moved in. I feel bad for the pilots and passenger involved, but in the meantime, I despise these scare tactics, that local stations persist in creating for attention.

L.Adamson

"Risk" = A + B

I think it's totally valid to have these discussions. Furthermore, there is something I don't believe people always factor into the equation:

Risk (total) = Risk to self + risk to others

You can tolerate a high "risk to self" for your own personal enjoyment. That's a personal freedom thing. However the equation gets very untidy when you factor in "risk to others". There are those who work hard and responsibly to reduce the risk to others of their activities, and unfortunately there are those who couldn't care less as long as they're having a good time.

Just sayin'. That's all. It's not as simple as I wish it was.

Modify the equation slightly...

I believe the equation you are actually looking for is:

If Risk <= Value Then Proceed.

Where value is:

Value (total) = Value (to self) + Value (to others)

Here in Los Angeles, we had a medical helicopter crash killing pilot and passenger. It was a rare event, so we still have medical helicopter evacuations. They provide value.

A significant amount of work in the experimental aircraft industry has lead to safer production craft, which provide real value to our society.

Airports provide value to communities, so we have them, even though they have real risk to others.

We have many examples of risky conditions, such as living in a big city, driving a car, using chemicals, or mouthing off at politicians.

This discussion needs to address value both in the personal and societal sense of what we do, especially with flying.

On a personal note, I have crashed a plane (12 miles from where Steve Fossett crashed) and I still fly. I'm also building and hope to provide value to myself, and those around me.

fortuna fortibus favet

It's a wonder I haven't died before this but the worst injury I've had is a ruptured disc in my neck caused by my helmet in a motorcycle crash. And I still ride today and even still use a helmet - except in riding situations where I feel the helmet is more danger than benefit. I've had a few close calls but I tend not to repeat my mistakes. I agree with Paul; I look for trends. When I collapsed the nose gear last year, I looked for what I'd done wrong and I'm being careful not to repeat it. It seems to me that anything we do involves risk management and I can envision situations where I might not be able to continue flying. I hope I'm wise enough to recognize the more subtle ones if they happen to me - but as long as I can manage my risk I'm not going to worry about a 'golden bullet' (Air America movie reference). I don't believe in 'my number is up' so much as 'I took my finger off my number' - I hope everybody knows those slang phrases.

But the other side of the risk/reward equation bears some looking at. Another poster questioned the reward aspect but I believe that it exists, even if not couched as what we traditionally consider a reward. Perhaps instead we should refer to 'outcomes' and their degree of desirability. That's still rather subjective but at least we have a framework for discussing our choices.

Even desirability is not a static value. I love flying - but I love it a little less now that I can do it all the time. When I was learning, I couldn't spend enough hours in a plane. Now, I have an aversion to just burning holes in the sky and need to have a destination. I'm perfectly happy to fly with the gang for no better reason than a social breakfast but otherwise I'm happier with a wrench or rivet gun in my hand. So things have changed for me.

Worse is pride of ownership. I don't ride my custom motorcycle the way I do my stock Sportster - not only due to their different riding characteristics but also I'm simply less prone to 'play' on the custom I worked so hard to create. I've noticed the same thing with the RV in a different manner; it's more fun to fly than the Cessnas I learned in but I find myself worrying that something medical will happen to me and the plane will be lost as a result. No reason for it - I'm in good health - and it doesn't stop me from flying. But I notice the nagging thought and also that I am not similarly bothered by the idea of something mechanical causing the plane to kill me. Odd, isn't it, that I should worry more about the plane than me? But I wonder - if a real health issue cropped up would I stop flying to preserve the plane? No way to tell and I'm still having too much fun flying to stop now.

A single event, like an accident, probably won't stop me (it didn't last year; I was flying with friends the next week and had my plane repaired and flying in about three months), but some event or another may prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back - the last push in a series that adds up to enough is enough. Right now, it would take a lot to get me to stop.

I think Dan Horton's equation is accurate: RISK =<REWARD.

To Dr. Stern, I have this to say about your personal introspection.... If the cause of an accident involving you is because of something you did wrong and you did nothing about it (such as training), then, yes, you should hangup the goggles and play golf (don't forget to duck when someone yells - FORE!!). Rick Gray did nothing wrong in accident #1, and I'm pretty sure when all the investigation is finished you'll find out he did nothing wrong in accident #2. He was the unlucky recipient and SURVIVOR of both accidents. Speaks well of his ability to handle an emergency situation with a cool mind. I would rather try to learn from his experience on how I can handle such an intense situation as either one of his, and come out the victor, rather than thinking, 'boy was he lucky, when is my turn coming'.... If you feel concerned about your ability to handle a difficult abnormality, there is training available to give you that confidence. We should all feel comfortable that we can handle abnormal/emergency situations, such as an engine failure shortly after takeoff - or enroute, or a flight control malfunction without panic and be confident that we will survive (the airfame is expendable), or we should get some training.... - or we should quit flying. I agree that family concerns are more important, but I believe, depending on your desire to fly, that you can overcome concerns about survivability to allow you the peace of mind to accomplish the level of confidence you need to be able to fly and also be a responsible family patriarch. It's an internal decision and doesn't concern anyone here on this forum - just you. But help is available if you want to pursue it. I don't know you, but I hope you are able to stick with us. We need safe, confident, well trained pilots in our ranks. Good luck, whatever you decide.

Risk != Danger

One of the skills that we seem to have lost over the last few decades is the ability to distinguish the difference between "risk" and "danger." The two words aren't synonyms, but lots of people toss them around as if they mean the same thing.

Danger is what you end up with when you don't manage risk.

Everything has risk attached to it, but that isn't a reason to not do stuff, it's a reason to manage the risk.

Listen carefully to the way that the uninitiated talk about flying: "Isn't it DANGEROUS?" Try to answer that with, "No, but it's risky," and see how deeply our society has lost the ability to make the distinction.

("But what happens if the engine stops?" "Well, then I guess I'll land," is a risk-based response; the fantasy about fiery death in the questioner's mind is a danger-based assumption)

We all make conscious or unconscious risk assessments all the time, regardless of what we're doing, including when we're flying. THAT'S WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO.

We also make occasional danger assessments: If Danger > 0, that's when I stop.

- mark

Call me old fashioned, naive or deceived, but I put my faith in Jesus! Whether I live or die, HE is my Shepard! There is a French proverb which says "a clean conscience is softer than a fresh pillow". Works for me.

apkp777 said:

Call me old fashioned, naive or deceived, but I put my faith in Jesus! Whether I live or die, HE is my Shepard! There is a French proverb which says "a clean conscience is softer than a fresh pillow". Works for me.

Click to expand...

Amen. (without a hint of sarcasm.)

apkp777 said:

Call me old fashioned, naive or deceived, but I put my faith in Jesus! Whether I live or die, HE is my Shepard! There is a French proverb which says "a clean conscience is softer than a fresh pillow". Works for me.

Click to expand...

sprucemoose said:

Amen. (without a hint of sarcasm.)

Click to expand...

I have always wondered what went through the minds of airmen shot down at 30,000' over Europe during WWII. As ground pounders say "There are no atheists in foxholes."

Scott Hersha said:

I think Dan Horton's equation is accurate: RISK =<REWARD.

Click to expand...

The equation is incomplete, there's no CONSEQUENCE factor. It only considers RISK and REWARD.

None of us wants to die in a nursing home. But neither is the prospect of living with a serious burn injury, permanent paralysis, or loss of normal function much to look forward to. Is the perceived reward worth that possible real consequence?

Experimental aviation has a higher risk factor than commercial aviation. That risk factor can be assessed considering reward alone (and is so with commercial aviation where life insurance rates are no different than those who do not fly) but in this business where the consequence can be a life altering event (if not fatal) the question whether to continue is appropriate and the possible consequences of doing so must be considered along with the perceived reward.

This is not to suggest that anyone should quit flying experimental airplanes. But it is a suggestion that we considers all the factors, not just reward and risk. One of our comrades is suffering terribly right now and that pain is felt everywhere. We hope and pray there is a good resolution.

I fly because I love it. But one would have to be brain dead not to think about walking away from it considering all the recent carnage. This is supposed to be fun but these accidents are not fun for anyone.

Practical solutions

Raising the question of whether its a good idea to continue is a GREAT idea.

It is not negative, its not stopping anyone from doing anything. It is freedom to speak.

As Evelyn Beatrice Hall said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

To not heavily consider the chance of grave injury is what brings it upon you. To silence a community in relation to speak about it, is asking for less managament of the risk and more death.

As far a Jesus is concerned, and I never knew the man myself but I hear that he is a pretty good bloke with a lot of loyalty to his dad...

Jesus doesn't hang out at my home base, well not that I know of, and he hasn't contributed to this post yet. (Althought if you are part of VAF your more than welcome to chip in here JC) so baring him getting involved I feel it is a good idea for people to say... OK when is it silly to keep going and what are the physical factors involved.

Experiementals do crash, and its more about being current and practice than anything else. People should talk about the pilots more than the "homebuilts".

Non-professional pilots need to examine their risk all the time. Its real. Saying boohoo to party poopers that talk about it is just sticking your head in the sand.

David-aviator said:

Experimental aviation has a higher risk factor than commercial aviation.

Click to expand...

That isn't necessarily the case. Much of any additional risk can be managed away....

"I think that for me it would all depend on the REASON for the mishap."

That's the crux of it for me. I've had two in-flight engine failures and each of them had to be considered carefully before I felt continuing to fly was the right choice for me & my family. The first taught me that I shouldn't trust - solely - the work done by an A&P and signed off by an IA, that I had a responsibility to put my hands on all the same parts of the a/c and understand what I was seeing. The second taught me that higher time (1700+ hrs) engines can be at risk even if they get their recommended care & feeding, and that increased vigilance is needed for them. Both times, I reached the conclusion that I personally could lessen the degree of risk represented by those incidents.

"For me, I simply think that when the time comes, I will know."

I'd amend that somewhat. My wife and I just completed an 11-year period of doing something most would feel is very risky: sailing by ourselves offshore and crossing oceans to visit foreign lands. Like flying, the rewards for us were so special that we felt them worth the risks...BUT we also worked hard to minimize and manage the risks. When we arrived in Brisbane, Australia we knew the time had come to do other things. One reason was our diminishing capacity to tackle the physical consequences of an emergency at sea, should one occur. But we wouldn't have reached that conclusion if we hadn't been open to asking and answering the question, and we saw many peers who were less capable in numerous ways than us but who weren't open to even asking it.

Good topic.

Jack

apkp777 said:

Call me old fashioned, naive or deceived, but I put my faith in Jesus! Whether I live or die, HE is my Shepard! There is a French proverb which says "a clean conscience is softer than a fresh pillow". Works for me.

Click to expand...

I prefer to put my faith in these:
1) Staying current in the aircraft with continuous practice/training.
2) A no holes barred "world class" approach to aircraft construction/maintenance.

Allan Stern said:

Countless articles have been written in numerous aviation magazines discussing safety. We know that flying an airplane is risky and accidents do happen and I personally have lost several friends in fatal accidents.

I have met Rick Grey and hope he has a speedy recovery. However, I also know that this is Rick's second major accident that I am aware of. His first was when he had to put that FI Rocket down in a neighborhood just after take off and now this RV 10 crash with it's resultant injuries.

How many of these events does one undergo before we ask ourselves if it is worth being killed, in doing something we obviously love to do? What are our responsiblities to our families and children and significant others?

I know that life and living is a risk. I teach the subject and try to help people prevent having any accidents and even I engage in risky activites like motorcycle riding, have tried hang gliding, bungee jumping, and other things. But is there a time that after so many close calls one decides to give it up? If you can.

Personally, I am allowing one major happening that I walk away from that is the end, no more. Whether I follow my own advice or not remains to be seen.

Dr. Allan Stern
Professor Marshall University
RV 8A Flying

Click to expand...

It's about impossible to answer the question in terms that apply to all.

The most important aspect of the discussion is the prevention element - build it right, fly it right and the activity is relatively safe. In fact, most pilots never experience a major accident event. They do have close calls now and then, but most never make the news. That element keeps the fire burning.

There also is a very human reaction to flight that keeps some coming back. I flew one more time and did so successfully! Any time you break ground there is a feeling of adventure in that your ability to fly, your judgement concerning weather, and your faith in the integrity of the airplane is called into question. These parts of the endeavor are almost beyond words in explanation to the non aviator. It is perceived that once one has a license to fly it is all down hill, whereas the opposite is true. There is always is room to improve every part of flight no matter how long you've been at it.

So we consider the bad events, think about it some more and press on. Not many will hang it up as a consequence but some will consider their less than perfect experiences to see if things can be improved. That's the very good part of airing thoughts on dying in an airplane. We also, individually in different ways, place our faith in God and our place in his universe. We do our best, ask for His assistance, push the throttle up and let it rip.

Beyond all that, perhaps what is grounding more pilots these days than accidents is the cost of flight and the economy. Some have been affected by it very seriously, that's why so many projects and airplanes are for sale.

One of my favorite quotes:

"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA, SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer

apkp777 said:

Call me old fashioned, naive or deceived, but I put my faith in Jesus! Whether I live or die, HE is my Shepard! There is a French proverb which says "a clean conscience is softer than a fresh pillow". Works for me.

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Yes, yes, but does He do your preflight or flight planning? "God helps those who help themselves." I'm not casting religious aspersions here. I'm just saying my prayer tends not to be "God help me" but rather "Lord, don't let me screw up."

We all need a realistic awareness

Everyone who flies tends to fit into the "high achiever / independent thinker / adventurer" type mould. Most of us like the challenge and rigor of aviation. However we all realise that it is a pursuit that has its risks, it is not a humans ?natural? environment. We have, by the use of our intellect, found a way to do something we have not evolved to do. As a result it is inherently dangerous, as is every activity that we have "invented?. This can include thing as basic as horse riding. How many people are killed and maimed in accidents with horses every year? Driving a car or motor bike as well as most industrial processes have massive risks. Have you ever seen a blast furnace being "tapped"? I have and it?s b?.. scary as molten iron around 1000 deg C comes hissing out of the thing. If you want something seriously dangerous try mining or various under water activities (submarines and scuba diving).
So should we stop doing things that have risk? We can?t even go back to the stone age, it was so dangerous that at 30 you would be an old man!.

What we have always done, and continue to do is risk management. We look at the risk and counter those risks with ways to minimise them. This minimisation has many levels that we aviators are familiar with and they fall into the areas of Mechanical, Natural and Human.

We have developed protocols to deal with the machines we fly to minimise the chance of failure. We do this so well aviation is safer than crossing the highway. Problems occur when we negate these protocols. Fail to do a thorough pre-flight or push out some maintenance.

We look scientifically at the natural environment to predict and warn about severe weather or fires and volcanoes. The problem occurs when we push our personal minima. What an old instructor of mine called ?Pressonitis? To press on regardless!

We recognise the human factors, such as tiredness, hydration and illness. We have rules and guidelines that pilots should follow. However are we good judges of our condition to fly? Can we accept we are not "on the top line"? How many of us will put off that flight because we are lacking in some way? Do we recognise we are not bullet proof? Do we recognise that eventually, if nothing else gets us, we will have to stop flying just as one day we will have to stop driving, motorcycling or water skiing? If not to preserve ourselves, then to not be a danger to other innocent people.

So what makes flying dangerous? We do! So who can make flying safer? Us!

If we keep following the protocols and be honest with ourselves then every trip should be as dangerous as every other trip and if we are honest with ourselves then the time to give it up for the safety of all should become obvious.

Anyway that?s my 2c worth.

Cheers

Jim

Weather permitting, I would rather fly than drive. Some of my best ideas come to me when flying. A very mind clearing and relaxing experience, I find flight Less stressing than a drive to the grocery store or post office.

Plus one on Post #21.

Happy Landings

flion said:

Yes, yes, but does He do your preflight or flight planning? "God helps those who help themselves." I'm not casting religious aspersions here. I'm just saying my prayer tends not to be "God help me" but rather "Lord, don't let me screw up."

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That was not the point of my post. My point was, this thread is all about being afraid (IMO) of death. So much so, that you would give up flying because of it. My faith takes care of the death thing for me, so I am not about to give up something I enjoy for fear.

Let me brake the news to everyone. YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. There's probably worse ways to go than C.F.I.T.

It may be time for some people to watch "What about Bob" with Bill Murray. .

I lost a friend yesterday to a crash of a Pulsar in Salt Lake City. This friend was a cfi and had every rating you could have and yet was still the victim of mechanical failure. It has made me pause and evalulate the risk vs. reward that was metioned in an earlier post. A life ended at 28 leaving a wife and two daughters behind. I know you can't live life by saying "what if" everytime we choose to do something, just makes me pause for a while and evaluate if it really is worth it.

Still annoyed

How many of these events does one undergo before we ask ourselves if it is worth being killed, in doing something we obviously love to do?

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This is the question posed by the person opening this topic, its the reason I find the thread so annoying. I assumes that we are going to be killed if we fly.

Well I haven't been killed in the last 20 years......... I have known several people who have had accidents, engine failures and walked away from them without injury. I have only known personally one person who died, a very sad loss he was a good man.

However, 4 friends have been killed by cancer in the last 2 years and about 20 others have contracted various forms of it in the same period. Several of them now cannot fly because of their illness. Do they want to, your dammed right they do, they want to live life while they still have breath in their body.

One friend was just cleared of prostrate cancer almost immediately he went up in his Tailwind. Another who has the same form of the disease cant wait to get his licence back to fly his Long Eze.

Flying is not a death sentence and any question that makes the assumption that it is is just plain stupid and wrong. The fact is that most of the people who are killed or injured flying do something stupid, showboating, not checking they have sufficient fuel before a flight. Sometimes its mechanical failure......... but often this is down to human error. Proper technique, following procedures, and good training could have prevented most of them.


My friend above, well he was the innocent victim of circumstance and was hit by an aircraft doing an instrument approach who knew he was in front of them but failed to spot him. I have little sympathy for the people killed in that aeroplane because they were doing something stupid, instrument watching on a clear day, when looking out of the window could have saved all their lives.

The only good thing was that he died doing something he loved, not so the 4 other friends who were so full of morphine to ease the pain of cancer that they did not know which planet they were on.

So put the question as it should be put...... flying involves some risk should we give it up? You will hear a universal 'No'!

OK, so you can add in but if you do something stupid you could be killed, you will hear' then don't do something stupid and continue to enjoy flying.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt

I avoided this thread awhile because of the "here we go again" thing. But, its good, really good. This is what I've learned so far:
1) Don't wear a motorcycle helmet. Its bad for your neck.
2) Don't ride motorcycles.
3) Flying is "dangerous"
4) Flying homemade airplanes is extra "dangerous".
5) We're all a pack 'o' superheroes.
6) We're all a pack 'o' old maids
7) Jesus may actually be on this forum, but if he is he owes Doug $25.

This quote works for me.

"Remembering you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose".

Steve Jobs

aerhed said:

1) Don't wear a motorcycle helmet. Its bad for your neck.

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My helmet most likely broke my collarbone. But I was thrown onto the asphalt at 65 mph. The helmet took the abuse on the left side , as well as the face shield which flipped down on it's own. It would have been my skull and face, that met the "road" grinder other wise. Even my watch saved part of my arm, by being worn down by the asphalt.

I use to wear a helmet on a 50/50 bases (46 years of riding), and argued for the right of not being forced to wear one. I've kinda changed my mind about that...

P.S.--- leathers wouldn't have been a bad idea, either.

L.Adamson