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Engine Leaning - Service Instruction 1497A

When do you Lean?

  • I start thinking about leaning before I leave the house

    Votes: 94 62.3%
  • I lean above 3K feet or in a cruise altitude

    Votes: 53 35.1%
  • I only lean above 3K feet

    Votes: 4 2.6%
  • I'm rich in every sense of the word, I never lean!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    151
  • Poll closed .

Subwaybob

Well Known Member
Found video on Letters from flyover Country:

I was also taught this wrong. Read it all but pay special attention to page 2 section B #2. I was always taught don't lean below 3K. This says if you're flying in cruise at 1000 then lean it to max RPM no exceptions.
http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1497A.pdf

This instruction sheet and the video below was commissioned by Emery Riddle from Lycoming and Cessna on why their engines were giving them so much headache in the training environment. Worth a look.
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1678859198001

Now how many of you were taught to NOT lean below 3000?
 
My experience may be an outlier. I've found that it's nearly always possible to lean effectively, even at sea level.

I suspect that carburetors (all my experience leaning is with carbs) have sufficient rich margin to handle cold weather at sea level. That means that there's room to lean for standard day conditions.

But I recognize that this might apply to my engine and airframe alone, and caveat, it's not an RV.

Dave
 
Yet another poorly written document from Lycoming.

In an attempt to create a one size fits all "cookbook" they have once again failed.

Interesting to not however they have finally addressed the issues of agressive leaning on the ground. About time!

This says if you're flying in cruise at 1000 then lean it to max RPM no exceptions.

No that is not what it says however what it does say is a bit of a shambles.

It talks about <3000' to leave it full rich, well I would counter that with why cruise below 3000 at full rich when a proper assesment of the power setting required would determine what is appropriate, but at 1000' and full bore, I use about 80LOP, and this is the most appropriate, unless I want the extra 4 knots, in which case 200-250ROP ( Full Rich) is the go but geez the fuel burn is horrendous.

Now what REALLY concerns me is this garbage.
2. Cruise
Make the fuel mixture Lean to maximum RPM (all altitudes). Leaning Technique
a. Slowly make the fuel mixture Lean until the RPM decreases.
b. Make the fuel mixture Rich until the engine operates smoothly.
c. Make the fuel mixture Rich by turning the mixture knob an additional 1/2 turn (approximately 180 degrees rotation).

So lets do that mental flight again....remember all altitudes. Now assuming the engine is not like mine, and many VAF'ers who have tuned their injectors, the point at which the roughness goes away may well be 60-80F LOP, however a factory C172 with a stock Lycoming may not be that good, most likley not, so where do you think this bit of leaning advice is going to get you? Maybe 20F LOP, 50F ROP? Who knows?????

Now of course the average C172 student may well pull the throttle back to 2300 RPM and in doing so the MP and RPM are such that the max possible power is around 65-70% anyway, but it does not specify anything, so full bore down the beach at 500' is possible!

pullhair.gif
 
My experience may be an outlier. I've found that it's nearly always possible to lean effectively, even at sea level.

I suspect that carburetors (all my experience leaning is with carbs) have sufficient rich margin to handle cold weather at sea level. That means that there's room to lean for standard day conditions.

But I recognize that this might apply to my engine and airframe alone, and caveat, it's not an RV.

Dave

I lean all the time at all altitudes including on the ground and my RV has been flying healthy for the last 15-years and over 2,600 hours. I got 2,200 hours on the first set of cylinders and if I had not leaned aggressively all the time, I would never had made it.

On climb out, I do watch EGT to make sure that it stays on the rich side of peak.

Total engine hours are over 5,500 hours.
 
I lean all the time at all altitudes including on the ground and my RV has been flying healthy for the last 15-years and over 2,600 hours. I got 2,200 hours on the first set of cylinders and if I had not leaned aggressively all the time, I would never had made it.

On climb out, I do watch EGT to make sure that it stays on the rich side of peak.

Total engine hours are over 5,500 hours.

Now that is a testimonial. Well done. :D
 
Easier to say when I don't lean...

Near SL start up and takeoff to 1000' agl. Any other time I am leaning.

I have stock IO-540. Max LOP with massive electrode plugs was 30F. Now with fine wire plugs on the bottom I am getting 40F before it gets rough. I still need to balance injectors but 10.3 gph is much better than 13.5 gph.
 
Wayne,

Just remember at lower powers, in the 8-12,000 feet range around 10-20F LOP is where you are efficient, otherwise speed loss starts hurting you.

Down low you will probably get 80F LOP at say WOT, 2400 and at 1000', give it a try, you might be surprised how the relationships work,;)
 
Leaning

I think "Garbage" is pretty over the top. We fly aerial detection at 2500 'if we're lucky, sometimes 1500'. I teach the commercial pilots to pull the mixture back as soon as the oil pressure comes up, and aggressively lean when we're level. We get 3000 hours out of our 320 E2d's. Promise, not going to change.

Don
 
Now how many of you were taught to NOT lean below 3000?

Yep, and it makes sense why we were taught that. As Mike Busch said, the CFI didn't want to give us too much to think about.

I've been working very hard to get into the leaning game the last few months and I loved the video. As I mentioned on my night flight the other night, I was at 3,000 MSL and could easily lean it out to 5.6-6 GPH (IO-360) which would be about 90-100 LOP and I'm still motoring along at 140 knots. But I'm just not sure how lean is too lean. Mike says just above engine roughness. Dare I? Just not sure. More experimenting needed. And haven't flown enough long cross country -- yet -- to do a lot of experimenting.

However, as I might've indicated on the original LFFC post (I can't recall, I might've only mentioned it on Facebook), I'm confused about WOT and leaning.

Busch said the ONLY time he pulls the throttle back is on landing; that he uses mixture to set power from takeoff all the way down. I'm just a fixed pitch grunt, and I'm not at all sure how that would work.

Also, I thought it was really interesting that he does not go full rich on landing. That, he says, is only in case you have to go-around and he says if you're confident enough in your ability to quickly do what you have to do in the event of a go-around, keep it lean.

I'm still thinking about whether I want to do that. ;)
 
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Yet another poorly written document from Lycoming.

In an attempt to create a one size fits all "cookbook" they have once again failed.

Interesting to not however they have finally addressed the issues of agressive leaning on the ground. About time!



No that is not what it says however what it does say is a bit of a shambles.

It talks about <3000' to leave it full rich, well I would counter that with why cruise below 3000 at full rich when a proper assesment of the power setting required would determine what is appropriate, but at 1000' and full bore, I use about 80LOP, and this is the most appropriate, unless I want the extra 4 knots, in which case 200-250ROP ( Full Rich) is the go but geez the fuel burn is horrendous.

Now what REALLY concerns me is this garbage.


So lets do that mental flight again....remember all altitudes. Now assuming the engine is not like mine, and many VAF'ers who have tuned their injectors, the point at which the roughness goes away may well be 60-80F LOP, however a factory C172 with a stock Lycoming may not be that good, most likley not, so where do you think this bit of leaning advice is going to get you? Maybe 20F LOP, 50F ROP? Who knows?????

Now of course the average C172 student may well pull the throttle back to 2300 RPM and in doing so the MP and RPM are such that the max possible power is around 65-70% anyway, but it does not specify anything, so full bore down the beach at 500' is possible!

pullhair.gif


Are all C-172's equiped with approapriate engine instruments for precise LOP operations? If not, the Lycoming Service Instruction applicable to type certified C-172's and FAA (DER) Approved answers the need as intended.

I suppose the Lycoming engineers should take an AFS course since they don't seem to know anything about the engines they have been designing, manufactering and selling for a long, long, time.
 
Yep, and it makes sense why we were taught that. As Mike Busch said, the CFI didn't want to give us too much to think about.

I've been working very hard to get into the leaning game the last few months and I loved the video. As I mentioned on my night flight the other night, I was at 3,000 MSL and could easily lean it out to 5.6-6 GPH (IO-360) which would be about 90-100 LOP and I'm still motoring along at 140 knots. But I'm just not sure how lean is too lean. Mike says just above engine roughness. Dare I? Just not sure. More experimenting needed. And haven't flown enough long cross country -- yet -- to do a lot of experimenting.

However, as I might've indicated on the original LFFC post (I can't recall, I might've only mentioned it on Facebook), I'm confused about WOT and leaning.

Busch said the ONLY time he pulls the throttle back is on landing; that he uses mixture to set power from takeoff all the way down. I'm just a fixed pitch grunt, and I'm not at all sure how that would work.


Also, I thought it was really interesting that he does not go full rich on landing. That, he says, is only in case you have to go-around and he says if you're confident enough in your ability to quickly do what you have to do in the event of a go-around, keep it lean.

I'm still thinking about whether I want to do that. ;)

Busch was commenting on his C/S application. With your F/P prop, you would still use the throttle to control power...... rpm/mp.

With your FP prop, you needed to reduce power (rpm) as you approached and descended to pattern altitude. If you didn't make a mixture adjustment, and continued to reduce power, the motor would continue to run fine at low power settings. But if you gave it full throttle, the engine would stumble from a lean mixture.

Look at the mixture position leaned at 2000' agl and full throttle. You could do a go around with the mixture just a little richer than that.

During a go around, it's power and then flaps when you were training. I am sure by now we can handle.... mixture, throttle and then flaps with no problem. The motor will always tell you if it's too lean. But it has a harder time telling you that it is too rich. Just a loss of power that you may not notice depending on the situation.
 
This says if you're flying in cruise at 1000 then lean it to max RPM no exceptions.
http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1497A.pdf

No that is not what it says however what it does say is a bit of a shambles.

That is EXACTLY what it says.

2. Cruise
Make the fuel mixture Lean to maximum RPM (all altitudes).
Leaning Technique
a. Slowly make the fuel mixture Lean until the RPM decreases.
b. Make the fuel mixture Rich until the engine operates smoothly.
c. Make the fuel mixture Rich by turning the mixture knob an additional 1/2 turn
(approximately 180 degrees rotation).

This document and the video states specifically that unless in climb or landing operation flying an IO-360-L2A to use these procedures "At All Altitudes". I translate that to most IO-360's from Lycoming and probably the IO-320's as well. Now I am not an engine scientist but these people are and I am fairly certain they would not put a document out that they can get sued for. Also keep in mind that the original service instruction that was superseded was 1497. With all that said my opinion is just that, an opinion. But since we have Gary flying with 5500 hours on his engine doing just what the document says to do I have to say I think I will go with it. (After the break in period of course!:))
 
That is EXACTLY what it says.



This document and the video states specifically that unless in climb or landing operation flying an IO-360-L2A to use these procedures "At All Altitudes". I translate that to most IO-360's from Lycoming and probably the IO-320's as well. Now I am not an engine scientist but these people are and I am fairly certain they would not put a document out that they can get sued for. Also keep in mind that the original service instruction that was superseded was 1497. With all that said my opinion is just that, an opinion. But since we have Gary flying with 5500 hours on his engine doing just what the document says to do I have to say I think I will go with it. (After the break in period of course!:))

I'll have to go up and play with this but it sounds like this would put it about 20 or so degrees rich of peak. And everything I've been reading has said this is the last place you want to be.
 
I'll have to go up and play with this but it sounds like this would put it about 20 or so degrees rich of peak. And everything I've been reading has said this is the last place you want to be.

I'm with you. Heat is bad. Excessive lead is bad too. I guess its a mesh of the two. I used to have a girlfriends dad that owned a crop dusting company with a few planes and was also an IA/A&P. He absolutely refused to use 100LL and only used pump gas. Said he had the cleanest engines ever! He also landed on the roads next to the crop to refill his tanks, so who knows, maybe he was just nuts! (No thread drift intended, just speaking about excessive lead...)
 
I just put my vote in, I then viewed the poll, "I start thinking about leaning before I leave the house" seems to be what most of us do anyway. I guess that RED knob does something after all.
 
Subwaybob,

My apologies, I thought you meant literally, because just prior to that it said not below 3000' and it definately does not say anything about 1000'. But your point is correct, as I agreed, it implies at ALL levels lean for best RPM. I should say again, this would most likley result in a MP and RPM that is around 65-70% anyway, but that is an assumption.

My previous statement that this is yet another poor document from Lycoming stands.

RV8R999
answers the need as intended.
you are kidding me right?? Subwaybob would not have started this thread if this document answered the need. It is a very poor document.

It is like teaching fying by saying, "keep the wings level and use the rudder to skid the plane in the direction you want". So what about everything else????

There is no cookbook answer to this, and the more Lycoming and the airframe manufacturers keep doing this stuff, the worse it gets.

I suppose the Lycoming engineers should take an AFS course since they don't seem to know anything about the engines they have been designing, manufactering and selling for a long, long, time.

Not sure why the Lycoming engineers need to study an EFIS system built in the NW USA, but I am sure they would enjoy it.

The ENGINEERS at Lycoming know and should still know exactly what they are doing. They build a better engine than most, and they have a very good history of research, and understanding. Heck, they even developed and sold engines that were fitted to Piper's that were expressly to be run LOP, the manuals etc said so. The problem was too many OWT believers thought that they should run them a fraction richer than the book says, because a bit richer has to be better! And guess what, those folk had problems! So the evidence suggests give pilots the right info and they screw it up. It is no wonder the myths keep living.

Now lets be more realistic here, the documents coming out of TCM and Lyc for decades, have not been written by the engineers who know their stuff. Some of them are horrified with what has been published, and publicly admit it usually in retirement unfortunately. And often while attending an APS seminar.

I know where your {name calling removed} slant was heading, but if you understood, the course is not for the smart engineers at Lycoming or CMI, it is for pilots, those same ones who by virtue of 50 years of bad publications need all the training they can get. FACT!

gasman
I am sure by now we can handle.... mixture, throttle and then flaps with no problem.

It is not hard is it :)
 
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For the past 17 years flying my Mooney 0360 A1A I've lean during ground operations and any altitude, I also lean during climb making any needed adjustments. Since I'm carbureted I do run 25-50 ROP, it works for me. :)
 
This will come as a suprise to some people, but the rest of us get nothing from any point that uses name-calling to support it. But up until now it was an informative thread.
 
Bob, there has been no name calling, but a comment about a post being a childish slant is a comment on the kind of post, not the individual. You may wish to rethink that one.

I really bothers me that some folk can't get past the prejudices and excuses for thinking that because a manufacturer prints it it must be treated as gospel. Making smarty pants comments such as
I suppose the Lycoming engineers should take an AFS course since they don't seem to know anything about the engines they have been designing, manufactering and selling for a long, long, time.
are really what do not add any technical merit to the thread so far.

It is not "so" just because of what the APS guys teach.....it is the DATA, its not anything more than DATA the same stuff Lycoming proved years ago, and all the guys before them. What has been lost in the past 50 years is good understanding of that data, and this thread proves it.

Bob has proven it by finding a document and shooting holes in it right from the start.

I have a fair idea I know why the Embry guys have been having this trouble, the same reason the big flying academies here in Australia have had the same problem with teaching hundreds of cadets for Asian Airlines. They are teaching airline style, follow the book to the letter.......and guess what, they have engines that are pigs, fuel systems that are requiring a lot of work far too often (FCU's off inside 100hrs) all because they are operating exactly opposite to the way most VAFers operate. VAF guys should hold their heads up high on this one!

Hope that clears that up!:)
 
It is not "so" just because of what the APS guys teach.....it is the DATA, its not anything more than DATA the same stuff Lycoming proved years ago, and all the guys before them.

Fine, show us the Lycoming data which supports your position, and why, based on that data, the new SI is wrong.
 
Dan, read the whole thread and my comments in context please. RV8R99 was making snide remarks about how the Lycoming engineers should attend an APS course and how odd it was since they build em etc etc......

This is not about Lycoming engineers, rather those who write the poor materials. Usually not the same folk.

Now my reply was in defence of the position APS guys take on these matters....generally speaking, and that their position is based on the same facts and data Lycoming use, so with respect to this Service Instructions, any particular data is not relevant rather the whole concept of combustion engines, which I do not need to explain to you. You have a good enough grip on that already.

So moving to the crux of the matter, why this is another poor publication. And I say another because there have been plenty before this one. We all know it.

The thread was started by Bob, who astutely picked up on some glaring ambiguous statements.
I was also taught this wrong. Read it all but pay special attention to page 2 section B #2. I was always taught don't lean below 3K. This says if you're flying in cruise at 1000 then lean it to max RPM no exceptions.
http://www.lycoming.com/support/publ...fs/SI1497A.pdf
If taken literally this is poor advice and lacking on how to do it conservatively in order to give the best operating conditions and service life of the engine.

Did I say this was WRONG, (which is what you have asked of me), no, I said they have contradicted themselves once again, refer my first post on Page one, and I said they have not given any guidance on how to do this effectively. Especially when in the past they have been big proponents of full dirty gobby rich! To coin a phrase!

So Dan, I never said it was wrong, in some parts it is quite a revelation. It is not only trying to resolve fouling plugs, but most likely fuel systems that have been overprimed and gummed up etc etc, by subsequent starts (hot-warm) by students following the books all too literally.

You don't do this, I am almost sure do you?

So when you consider the rest of the document, of which some of the good bits are a refreshing change, the contradictory bits, and the poorly detailed procedures such as what to do if full bore at 500'....lets lean to ;
2. Cruise
Make the fuel mixture Lean to maximum RPM (all altitudes). Leaning Technique
a. Slowly make the fuel mixture Lean until the RPM decreases.
b. Make the fuel mixture Rich until the engine operates smoothly.
c. Make the fuel mixture Rich by turning the mixture knob an additional 1/2 turn (approximately 180 degrees rotation).
and with a poor F/A ratio this could be anywhere like 30-40ROP or 70-100ROP or wherever, how would you know???

Yes it is another poorly written document.
So tell us all where this SI is perfectly written and nil defects, and where the original poster, myself and others have got it wrong?
 
Did everyone listen to the first 4 minutes of Mike Bush's weimar???? If not go and listen to them, and in particular from 2.15minutes to 4.00 minutes.

Then get off my back!

And no...Mike does not make a dollar out of those wise words either, but seeing most folk love Mike's work, you will no doubt appreciate his thoughts better than mine.

Ciao!:)
 
Bob, there has been no name calling, but a comment about a post being a childish slant is a comment on the kind of post, not the individual. You may wish to rethink that one.

I tend to favor an intellectual approach to issues and bringing respect to a discussion. It's not everyone's bag, I realize. But it's what has made VAF such an oasis on the Internet. I'm sorry to see any diminution of that.

duty_calls.png
 
One thing to keep in mind concerning the "lean to rough, then back off" approach is the sometime radical differences in engines - primarily ignition. As an example, the RV-8 would stumble at 25 LOP with the magnetos, but the same engine went to 90+ LOP before stumble with the dual Pmags.

Until all engines are equipped with high resolution engine monitors, I suspect that factory bulletins are going to be somewhat generic in nature. We in the Experimental world have a bunch of latitude. But it is clear that aggressive leaning is being recognized as beneficial.
 
Does anyone have a better link to the video. I cannot get it to run past the Aircraft Spruce promo?
 
Dan, read the whole thread and my comments in context please. RV8R99 was making snide remarks about how the Lycoming engineers should attend an APS course and how odd it was since they build em etc etc......

This is not about Lycoming engineers, rather those who write the poor materials. Usually not the same folk.
- WRONG

David - We've all read your posts, in this thread and others. Obviously you are very passionate about this subject however, your posts are not DATA. You attempt to convey a very authoritative position on the subject without, frankly, any technical credibility, since you wholeheartedly avoid providing REAL data from well documented testing (either your own, the OEM, or someone else's). Instead you push the APS course as the arbiter of truth in what appears to be somewhat evangelistic. While you may have thought my post was childish, and maybe it was by some standard - although not meant to be, the fact remains you have not proven the Lycoming SI as wrong, or even bad, as it applies to the fleet of C-172's it was intended and approved by the FAA. You strongly criticize the validity and quality of the document yet I see nothing in your postings or profile which suggest you are qualified to make such a statement...prove me (us) wrong? What is your background, experience and education or what testing have you personally documented - I'm sorry but it matters. Furthermore, we don't know how versed you are in the process required by an OEM to have an SI FAA approved for a Type Certified aircraft and thus any comments by you concerning the quality of the document must be viewed through a skeptical lens. Since I do work for an OEM and have been involved in military and civilian aircraft development, research and testing for a long time, I KNOW the process for authoring approved documents and the responsibility the OEM has to ensure it covers the entire fleet of customer aircraft - not just the corner cases such as an EFIS equipped RV10. While the final document probably doesn't look EXACTLY like the ones the engineers originally drafted, I'm sure the effort was collaborative and the final draft was circulated and signed off by the engineers. The testing, data collection, analysis, and ultimately FAA (DER) review is significant when dealing with TC aircraft. While this SI is not perfect (none will ever be), the procedure listed does allow the non EFIS aircraft pilot to do a better job of managing engine mixture than the POH does. Anecdotal evidence, i.e. I know a guy who knows a guy who flew 12,000 hours to TBO using APS techniques, is not DATA. A 25,000 hour airline pilot who flies a Bonanza to twice TBO because he used a specific process for mixture control does not become an authority on proper leaning techniques...his experience is a DATA point, but not conclusive. Valid R&M (Reliability and Maintenance) testing requires a very robust process for variable control, configuration management, data collection and analysis.

So for me...unless someone has REAL data, conducted via legitimate testing I'm inclined to side with a trusted OEM, who is required to conduct and prove test results. I will however, explore and experiment on my own. Any information I may provide will always include the caveat "this applies to my test conditions and configuration only - YMMV"

I would be tickled pink if you were able to provide some real data, validate the source (credibility) and explain it to us... we all want to learn more about our aircraft and nobody has all the answers...nobody.

G'd Day Mate!

Ken Kopp,
BS Control Systems, MS Aeronautical Engineering
USN-Test Pilot Graduate
Developmental/Experimental Test Pilot
 
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