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ECI 0-360 Crankshaft plug

uk_figs

uk_figs

Well Known Member
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I have a newly assembled ECI 0-360 A1A CS kit that has been set up for a FP prop by a local mechanic with the requisite plug in the hollow crank, I went this way as I wanted to keep it simple but leave the flexibility to change later.

The mechanic explained to me that there can be a tendency for the plug to leak or blow out due to pressure buildup behind the plug and that the solution is to put a small hole in the plug to allow seepage (and presumably reduce pressure buildup), he also said that it might be feasible to put a fitting in the place of the CS oil pressure feed pipe with a restrictor that would be piped back to the sump to reduce pressure buildup and not have external oil leaks.

I would appreciate any feedback or comments or direction to appropriate documentation in order to understand this better before I do anything that might screw up my engine.:confused:
Thanks
 
which plug are talking about. the front one or the back one. what you are saying sounds a little strange.
 
Lycoming Service Instruction 1435

Basically for F/P operations, the front plug must be in place and the rear plug must be removed or punctured. If the rear plug is not removed or punctured, pressure will build over time and blow the prop seal. This can take from 60 to 100 hours to happen, but it WILL happen.
 
JUST NOT CLEAR!

uk_figs said:
I have a newly assembled ECI 0-360 A1A CS kit that has been set up for a FP prop by a local mechanic with the requisite plug in the hollow crank, I went this way as I wanted to keep it simple but leave the flexibility to change later.

The mechanic explained to me that there can be a tendency for the plug to leak or blow out due to pressure buildup behind the plug and that the solution is to put a small hole in the plug to allow seepage (and presumably reduce pressure buildup), he also said that it might be feasible to put a fitting in the place of the CS oil pressure feed pipe with a restrictor that would be piped back to the sump to reduce pressure buildup and not have external oil leaks.

I would appreciate any feedback or comments or direction to appropriate documentation in order to understand this better before I do anything that might screw up my engine.:confused:
Thanks
Click to expand...

SO AT THIS POINT, the plug is in and NOT PUNCHED? Correct? Then it is not set up for a FIXED PITCH PROP.

Quote.....
Basically for F/P operations, the front plug must be in place and the rear plug must be removed or punctured. If the rear plug is not removed or punctured, pressure will build over time and blow the prop seal. This can take from 60 to 100 hours to happen, but it WILL happen.
__________________
Mel Asberry..DAR

But what you really mean is the front crank plug will blow, and not the prop seal. A fixed pitch prop has no sael.


Look here for your answers........ http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28093
 
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There are two plugs on the hollow cranks.

One is about six to eight inches inside the crank and the other is close to the end. It is the plug that is deep in the crank that needs to be punched or removed and then the outer plug needs to be put in place.

You may not have this outer plug in your crank, based on your description.

To convert my O-290-D2B to use a fixed pitch prop, I took a LONG Phillips screwdriver and a BFH (If you don't know what a BFH is, you shouldn't be building an airplane. Or maybe if you do know what one is, you shouldn't be building an airplane. ;)) and punched two holes in that inner plug. Then using some permatex lightly applied to the outer plug I used a piece of oak that just fit inside the crank and my BFH to set the outer plug. With 123 hours since August '08 I haven't had a drop.
 
Mel said:
Basically for F/P operations, the front plug must be in place and the rear plug must be removed or punctured. If the rear plug is not removed or punctured, pressure will build over time and blow the prop seal. This can take from 60 to 100 hours to happen, but it WILL happen.
Click to expand...

or in my case (not a super bright mechanic) less than 2 minutes on the maiden flight after a complete rebuild.
 
PAUL.... YOU ARE CORRECT!

MNRVFlyer said:
gasman said:
SO AT THIS POINT, the plug is in and NOT DRILLED? Correct? Then it is not set up for a FIXED PITCH PROP.

DON"T drill the plug (metal in the engine) punch a hole in it.
Click to expand...

I used the wrong word to draw a picture. I corrected it in my thread. I expect that anyone that is going to do this process, would do it by the Piper service letter.

Thanks Paul, for the correction.........:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
gasman said:
SO AT THIS POINT, the plug is in and NOT PUNCHED? Correct? Then it is not set up for a FIXED PITCH PROP.

Quote.....
Basically for F/P operations, the front plug must be in place and the rear plug must be removed or punctured. If the rear plug is not removed or punctured, pressure will build over time and blow the prop seal. This can take from 60 to 100 hours to happen, but it WILL happen.
__________________
Mel Asberry..DAR

But what you really mean is the front crank plug will blow, and not the prop seal. A fixed pitch prop has no sael.


Look here for your answers........ http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28093
Click to expand...
No, the front plug will not blow. The prop seal will blow. The prop seal is the seal around the front of the crankshaft. It's proper name is "SEAL, Oil, crankshaft". But it is commonly referred to as the "prop seal."
 
Mel said:
No, the front plug will not blow. The prop seal will blow. The prop seal is the seal around the front of the crankshaft. It's proper name is "SEAL, Oil, crankshaft". But it is commonly referred to as the "prop seal."
Click to expand...

So then how does the oil pressure between the two plugs cause the seal to blow? The seal is only working against crankcase pressure? Right?

Without a C/S prop installed, and the rear plug NOT PUNCHED, then the front plug can be pushed out by the oil pressure. The area of the plug X 75 psi?

Do I understand this wrong?....... :( Thanks for your help.
 
gasman said:
So then how does the oil pressure between the two plugs cause the seal to blow?
Click to expand...
Mel, correct me if I'm wrong.

The engine tries to pump the oil into the champer you have created w/o punching the rear seal and the pressure builds up as oil can't get out of the crank. Then it gets to a critical point and the extra oil has to go someplace. That "some place" is where Mel described.

There is nothing that will get your attention like oil on the windscreen.

PS. If you feel like you must drill the the seal. Put a lot of grease on your drill bit. As soon as you see some chips on the bit, stop, clean it off, and re-grease it. Keep repeating this until you get through the seal. Punching is still better than drilling IMHO.
 
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N941WR said:
Mel, correct me if I'm wrong.

The engine tries to pump the oil into the champer you have created w/o punching the rear seal and the pressure builds up as oil can't get out of the crank. Then it gets to a critical point and the extra oil has to go someplace. That "some place" is where Mel described.
Click to expand...

So then where does the oil (and pressure) go when you have a C/S prop installed?
 
crank plugs

The prop seal will blow out if the crankcase breather is plugged, or cause all kinds of leaks if it is partially blocked. The rear plug is solid for c/s prop, with no front plug. Fixed pitch is as discussed. I can't see how the plugs could cause leaks of the crankcase or cause a problem with prop seal, if properly seated.
 
Along the hose/tube....

gasman said:
So then where does the oil (and pressure) go when you have a C/S prop installed?
Click to expand...

Along the external hose/tube that connects the front journal to the prop governor on the rear case. The outlet at the front bearing is plugged (or doesn't exist) on the FP version.

gil A
 
Comprehension slowly dawns

OK I have read all the replies and I believe I understand that the inner plug typically needs to have a hole to release pressure so that the front plug will not blow out (I do not believe the front plug is installed yet).
Any comments on the mechanics idea of running a tube from the front breather hole (that would normally be plugged in a FP situation) back into the rear of the crankcase (with a drilled restrictor plug in the breather fitting ) to relieve the oil pressure build up.
 
AH HA

After reviewing the other referenced thread I believe this is what the mechanic is talking about

"Another option is to leave the back plug in; install the front plug, and route the Prop Governor Line
back to the sump. This prevents pressure build up in that area. On those engines without a convenient place
to attach the drain-back line(such as turbo charger drain-back), Mattituck (??) makes a special cover plate for the Governor hole with an integral fitting to accept the drain-back hose.
Has been working fine on my O360-A1D this way for 95hrs.
Easy to convert back to CS, too.
__________________
Rolf
RV6 N9EY "

Can I assume that the special governer cover plate mentioned is a standard size for the 0-360?

Any additional comments?
 
This is certainly an option. However, in my opinion, you are just adding more complexity and places for a leak. And punching or removing the rear plug is much easier.
 
****...

My ECI 0-360 is built and hung on the airframe. I didn't know anything about this problem until I just read this thread. I'm not going to take my engine off the airplane so what are my options?

On a side note, where could I get all the relavent Service Instructions so I can see what needs to be taken care of? I'm glad you guys are discussing the hollow-crank plug now, otherwise I wouldn't have known about it. :eek:
 
Planned upgrade...

Mel said:
This is certainly an option. However, in my opinion, you are just adding more complexity and places for a leak. And punching or removing the rear plug is much easier.
Click to expand...

... unless you are planning an actual upgrade in the future to a CS prop....:)

Then none of the plugs need to be touched.

gil A
 
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Plumbing to govenor plate

Lostpilot28
You could use the plumbing to the governer plate idea suggested above as I do not think this requires removing the engine, I think this is the route I am going to take to make the conversion easier later
 
Lycoming Service Instruction 1435

None of this involves removing the engine. The plugs are inside the front of the crankshaft. Lycoming service instruction 1435.
 
I can't believe there is even a debate on this subject....just listen to Mel and be done with it.

Poke a hoke in the rear plug if you're installing a FP prop and go fly. If you change to a C/S it's not a big deal to change the rear plug...it'll take longer to change the props than it will to change the plugs.

Don't add needless oil lines to an engine - ever. Complexity reduces reliability! Sure it'll work, but who wants extra oil lines running around the engine compartment (especially ones that provide no real function to the operation of the engine). I often marvel at the extent people will go through to create a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein.

Oh..and BTW...that front plug (not just the seal) can blow quite quickly. Last one I saw from someone who forgot to pierce the rear plug took minutes - not hours. In fact the front plug came out on the first flight and managed to pump a great deal of oil overboard rather quickly (in the air).
 
What's a BFH?

SteinAir said:
I can't believe there is even a debate on this subject....just listen to Mel and be done with it.
Click to expand...

Err, who's debating? I just want to know how to do it! ;)

I like the "poke a hole" idea...just don't know how to "get 'er done". I currently have no prop on the engine, so what would be the easiest way to go about it? Details are always welcome. :D

I'm guessing I'll have to remove the front plug, but don't know how, or with what or even how to put it back in. So, pretend I'm a Lyclone rookie (because I am), and give me some pointers.
 
Take a punch. Punch a hole in the front plug. Pry it out. It's just like a "freeze plug". Punch a hole in the rear plug. Wipe everything clean. Install a new front plug (STD-1211).
Go Fly! The whole job will take maybe 15 minutes.
BTW, I think the cost of the new front plug is somewhere around $1.
Obviously, if you don't feel comfortable doing this, talk to your local A&P. He can have you going in nothing flat.
 
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If yop remove the front plug to check and see if the rear plug is pierced you must install a new front plug. If you know that your rear plug is NOT pierced and intend to go C/S in the near future I would go with the exterior oil line. Removing tht inside rear plug is a bear. There is an oiltube in front of the plug and if you damage this tube you get to send the crank back to Lycoming for fixing.
 
Complexity...

SteinAir said:
I can't believe there is even a debate on this subject.........
Don't add needless oil lines to an engine - ever. Complexity reduces reliability! Sure it'll work, but who wants extra oil lines running around the engine compartment (especially ones that provide no real function to the operation of the engine). I....
Cheers,
Stein.
......
Click to expand...

Stein... while I agree that usually simpler is better, your argument above ("Complexity reduces reliability") could be taken as a reason to never go to a CS prop....:D

Think how many extra items - and almost all of them moving parts - get added when you change to a CS prop...:rolleyes:
Your statement above sort of recommends FP props...

Tongue still in cheek....

gil A - planning on a Sensenich....:)
 
Sorry if I came across a little bit short....do as Mel says and you'll expend no more than a few minutes getting it done.

Gill.....you are a wise man! My old beater still is flying just wonderfully with the FP sensenich on it after all these years. Sure the C/S guys can out climb me, but not so many of them can outrun me!

That being said, if I could have afforded a C/S prop way back when I built the thing I probably would have....but alas my engine has a solid crank in it so I can't hang one on there even if I wanted. The C/S has a lot going for it, but annuals are a breeze with the Sensenich.

See, if you have an engine with a solid crank, no plugs to ever worry about! Anyone want to buy one?!?! :)

My 2 cents again...

Cheers,
Stein
 
Hey fellas, quick question...I just ordered the front crankshaft plug, but I started wondering if I'll need some kind of gasket maker for it. Do you ever coat it with anything before replacing it in the crank?
 
No sealent needed but you can put a smear of rtv around the plug after it's installed that area needs to be real clean b4 the rtv goes on. Sometimes this seal weeps just a bit. Some one also makes a rear seal part that uses a set screw to plug a hole that's been tapped into the seal. F/P just remove the set screw and plug the front end.
 
I just openned my ECi box with my new 340S hollow crank. The end of this crank has the end plugged. Is there a method to inspect the inner plug to know if it is there and/or punched? Can a mirror/light be used to inspect the inside of the crank from the first journal offset? What about a slight pressurization on one of the oil passages on that end of the crank? I thought the end plug isn't used on CS applications, only the inner plug. If so, why would the end plug be installed at all? It seems it would be easier for ECi to include the outer plug, but leave it uninstalled in the box for FP applications.
Thoughts?
Henry
 
Normally the "front" plug is always installed to prevent oil leakage during shipping. There is no way to check the rear plug without removing the front one. If you are going with a constant speed, you will need to remove the front plug anyway. If you are going with F/P, you will either have to trust the manufacturer or remove the front plug and inspect.
 
Update...

Well, I got my replacement plug today - $2 for the part, $6 for shipping! :eek: AERO put it in a 6" x 6" box when they could've used an envelope! Oh well...at least I got it.

I removed the old plug (PITA) by pounding a hole in it and finding a long enough object (tire iron) to pry it out. I cleaned up the inside of the hole and noticed that the plug in the back wasn't there. I guess I'm good to go.

Update: OK, quick question...the new plug seemed to go in easier than the old one came out. And I noticed that the old plug was dimpled inward like someone hit it with a hammer to seat it. My new plug is just convex, and I'm wondering if I need to smack it to hold it in place. I've put a little RTV on the edge to keep it from leaking, but I don't know if it'll stay in place on it's own. Should I whack it really hard?
 
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Yes, hit it hard.. flatten that convex shape... you're right -- someone did hit the old plug hard and made it flat/concave.
 
crank plug

Yes, you need to use preferably a wooden dowel against the plug and it should end up about flat and tight after a few blows with a hammer. :)
 
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