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Two P-51s collide at Oshkosh...

The way it was explained to me, by someone who talked to someone who saw it, was that the two were landing and one was drifting over to near the other. He tried to bug out but when he turned, his wing hit the runway, cartwheeled once or twice and then exploded.
 
Source of the Problem?

That's two deaths in two years, both seemingly attributable to Warbird operators. Are we seeing Warbird owners with more money than skill? I'm concerned that it took a death last year to discover the simple precaution of a walker accompanying big tail draggers when they taxi in small traffic. Seemed like something Poberezny should have considered a long time ago. We do it out West at our shows. This year were these P-51 operators trained, practiced and competent at formation operations or not? Again, it concerns me that Airventure is not vetting the folks that are doing these semi-amateur shows in their quest for more an more big time extavaganzas.
I was really dissappointed last year at how much Airventure has turned into a commercial GA show and other than the forums and some self created groups and get-togethers it caters mostly to big time show stuff rather than the homebuilt world. We always have fun but it feels more and more like we're almost in the way of Tom's new vision for his big event and I'd be more than happy to hear others tell me what he is really doing for our experimental world. I've let my membership lapse as these issues have spoiled the whole EAA experience for me as I continue to modify and cross the country in my homebuilt.
These deaths are very sad and our prayers are with the families.
 
Well, I don't know if it's warbird specific. We had an RV spin in last year too and I'm betting there's been more homebuilt deaths in Oshkosh than warbird deaths (I can think of this one, last year's, and the cartwheeling plane of a few years ago)

I think it's important to understand the VOLUME of aircraft in this event. I watched from the campground last Sunday as, it seemed, every other plane on short final bugged out becuase of a slow plane in front of them.. forcing them to the edge of a stall.

blimps, helicopters, warbirds, jets, aerobatics, homebuilts, seaplanes... all in one spot...four runways active, planes taxiing everywhere.

It's a tribute to the pilots of ALL types of aircraft that there aren't more of these.

Flying is risky stuff.
 
These were skilled pilots

I am pretty sure that these two were just done with a simulated Reno style race. These are not people with less skill than money. The runway, I think, was already closed to arrivals; these were performers.
 
Sorry but ...

Sorry, but I wouldn't be caught dead at Oshkosh. Flying is hazardous enough for a low time pilot like me and I don't need the added risk factors of an extremely crowded airport and saturated radio frequencies. I live just across the lake from Oshkosh but there is just no attraction to me to travel there for the airshow. I love airplanes, but I don't like crowds or worse busy airports. The incident of the two P-51s we are discussing here is exactly the sort of reason why I wouldn't want to be there.

I myself have exactly 2.3 hours of taidragger time and I have not mastered the art of landing a taildragger. If I were to take up an RV solo right now there is a distinct chance that I could ground loop it. I am sure it can be done, but it seems to me that it takes a lot more skill than the average plane. Perhaps that's why the FAA requires a special endorsement. Couple that with a 1450 horsepower engine and the ability to overpower your rudder on landing and poor forward visibility and you have a very risky way to fly. And in close formation on landing, and with the pressure of a busy airport that is not your home airport or the home airport of most of the other pilots present - just not a good situation safety-wise.

That's not for me. You all have fun out there and tell me how it goes.

John
 
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RVadmirer said:
That's two deaths in two years, both seemingly attributable to Warbird operators.

snipped

Seemed like something Poberezny should have considered a long time ago. We do it out West at our shows. This year were these P-51 operators trained, practiced and competent at formation operations or not? Again, it concerns me that Airventure is not vetting the folks that are doing these semi-amateur shows in their quest for more an more big time extavaganzas.

snipped

I've let my membership lapse as these issues have spoiled the whole EAA experience for me as I continue to modify and cross the country in my homebuilt.
Click to expand...

Well.....

Let's cancel the Reno Air Races too! Too many loss of warbirds on the "western" edge of the country also! :eek:

BTW--- The P-51D that I was able to get some back seat (where the fuselage fuel tank use to be)time in was also destroyed last year with an engine out scenario. Pilot survived with scratches, P-51 looked like a pile of junk.

However, since I also live out west , and have attended airshows in California as well as many times to the Reno Air Races; I see no reason to vent on Oshkosh without substantiated facts. And I've been to that show too!

L.Adamson

P.S. --- I still prefer to see the "warbirds" fly, than rest in museums....
 
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Rich guys

I'm kind of confused about this thread. Are you suggesting that "rich guys" should not be allowed to purchase, fly, and maintain warbirds? Or are you suggesting that they should be subject to even more restrictions than they already have from the FAA?

Like everyone, it makes me sick to see one of these great aircraft damaged, and it would be great if we can come up with some ideas to reduce the likelihood of that happening in the future. I'm not sure that further restrictions on our liberty are the answer.
 
I don't mean to sound snippy, but the pilot who was killed was a very experienecd pilot as well a a wealth of knowledge. The warbird comminuty lost a true gentleman.
Don't pretend to think we here know anything about these folks who are able to mantain and fly these great planes.
 
I departed OSH this morning at 0835 on 36L and couldn't tell there had been an accident just 18 hours earlier - don't know if it happened on the left or right side (normally a taxi way), but it probably was the left since they were attempting a formation landing. I do know there was quite a gusty wind blowing at the time of the accident and it could have been a factor.

All in all, it was a fun week but things were a somewhat subdued last evening. The Mustang guys may fly heavier and more expensive metal, but we all belong to the same family. It's no fun when an aviator goes in.
 
GEE WIZ

Nomex Maximus said:
Sorry, but I wouldn't be caught dead at Oshkosh. Flying is hazardous enough for a low time pilot like me and I don't need the added risk factors of an extremely crowded airport and saturated radio frequencies. I live just across the lake from Oshkosh but there is just no attraction to me to travel there for the airshow. I love airplanes, but I don't like crowds or worse busy airports. The incident of the two P-51s we are discussing here is exactly the sort of reason why I wouldn't want to be there.

I myself have exactly 2.3 hours of taidragger time and I have not mastered the art of landing a taildragger. If I were to take up an RV solo right now there is a distinct chance that I could ground loop it. I am sure it can be done, but it seems to me that it takes a lot more skill than the average plane. Perhaps that's why the FAA requires a special endorsement. Couple that with a 1450 horsepower engine and the ability to overpower your rudder on landing and poor forward visibility and you have a very risky way to fly. And in close formation on landing, and with the pressure of a busy airport that is not your home airport or the home airport of most of the other pilots present - just not a good situation safety-wise.

That's not for me. You all have fun out there and tell me how it goes.

John Babrick
Click to expand...

Man you really should get some experiance before writing something like this. Do you really need to be flying at all? Sounds like you have yourself (and everyone else) doomed before we get in the air. I've been at this 32 years (65 to 1295 h.p. tailwheel airplanes) and wouldn't dream of throwing stones at anyone. And if your interested in learning anything, you can "overpower" your rudder on takeoff.........but not "landing". The airport wasn't busy, they had the runway to themselves. You or I were not in the airplane and really do not have a clue what may have gone wrong.

I know I should just keep quite, but sometimes I just can't.
 
I'll have to remember this thread the next time we lecture the media on getting the facts before jumping to conclusions.

That plane that landed on the Highway 41 the other night was also a warplane. So I take it that guy was also an unskilled pilot who only was flying because he was rich.

And, by the way, what do y'all mean by rich. I looked at a lot of Rv panels while at Oshkosh and by *my* definition, I'd say some of you are rich. So, does that make you an unskilled pilot?

C'mon. Think.

Honestly.
 
Sadness and emotions are high as expected

JACKR said:
Originally Posted by Nomex Maximus said:
Sorry, but I wouldn't be caught dead at Oshkosh. Flying is hazardous enough for a low time pilot like me and I don't need the added risk factors of an extremely crowded airport and saturated radio frequencies. I live just across the lake from Oshkosh but there is just no attraction to me to travel there for the airshow. I love airplanes, but I don't like crowds or worse busy airports. The incident of the two P-51s we are discussing here is exactly the sort of reason why I wouldn't want to be there.

I myself have exactly 2.3 hours of taidragger time and I have not mastered the art of landing a taildragger. If I were to take up an RV solo right now there is a distinct chance that I could ground loop it. I am sure it can be done, but it seems to me that it takes a lot more skill than the average plane. Perhaps that's why the FAA requires a special endorsement. Couple that with a 1450 horsepower engine and the ability to overpower your rudder on landing and poor forward visibility and you have a very risky way to fly. And in close formation on landing, and with the pressure of a busy airport that is not your home airport or the home airport of most of the other pilots present - just not a good situation safety-wise.

That's not for me. You all have fun out there and tell me how it goes.

John Babrick
Click to expand...

Man you really should get some experience before writing something like this. Do you really need to be flying at all? Sounds like you have yourself (and everyone else) doomed before we get in the air. I've been at this 32 years (65 to 1295 h.p. tailwheel airplanes) and wouldn't dream of throwing stones at anyone. And if your interested in learning anything, you can "overpower" your rudder on takeoff.........but not "landing". The airport wasn't busy, they had the runway to themselves. You or I were not in the airplane and really do not have a clue what may have gone wrong.

I know I should just keep quite, but sometimes I just can't.
Click to expand...
Before this blows-up, I see where both of you are coming from and emotions are high when these things happen. When I read John's post, I was left with the thought of humility and self reflective evaluation of skill and experience.

"you have a very risky way to fly" (some in the general public think any GA flying is a risky way to fly; depends on your perspective.)

Jack I totally get you and hear you, You're right Jack, it's not correct; We know it was not a high risk operation; it was an accident. However John is right in that a P-51 is a challenge to fly (I hear), formation flying/landing/takeoff adds risk, and airshows are crowded, increasing chance of plane-to-plane contact ground or air (which I do know). But these things can happen any time or place to any one, in any plane. John will not be flying formation, a P-51 or to airshows any time soon, if ever, I venture to say. That's a reasonable choice for him. It was NOT the P-51, the formation landing or the air show, it was an accident.

I don't think John wants to ban air-shows, formation flying or flying war-bird's, it's just not for him. America is a free country, God bless. Everyone has an inner dialogue to justify, understand and cope with these tragic situations.

We all take risk when we fly. You have to evaluate those risk. Some activities are more risky than others. This was not a super high risk, careless or ill advised operation. Accidents happen, a trite & cliche' thing to say, but its so true. It was an accident and that's all. Thoughts and Prayers to family and friends.

PS: The T-6 that successfully made a forced freeway landing - I heard the pilot interview. He went to land in the only area clear of traffic, but the patrol car pulled right out in front of him. That patrol car which pulled out in his way was the one which took the dash cam footage. The video actually caught his BOUNCE/balloon over the patrol car! Before what the video showed, he just cleared an over-pass (near stall), than dove under power lines and bounced over the patrol car! :eek: Rich or Poor he did a good job. I just hope they don't find it was fuel exhaustion.
 
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More bad news

Just heard Jim Leroy impacted the runway at the bottom of his loop at the Dayton airshow today. He died while being transported to the hospital. There is always risk involved with life, whether flying or driving. The familys of these aviators lost need our prayers at this time.
 
"You're d*mn right it isn't worth it!"

JACKR said:
Man you really should get some experiance before writing something like this. Do you really need to be flying at all? Sounds like you have yourself (and everyone else) doomed before we get in the air. I've been at this 32 years (65 to 1295 h.p. tailwheel airplanes) and wouldn't dream of throwing stones at anyone. And if your interested in learning anything, you can "overpower" your rudder on takeoff.........but not "landing". The airport wasn't busy, they had the runway to themselves. You or I were not in the airplane and really do not have a clue what may have gone wrong.

I know I should just keep quite, but sometimes I just can't.
Click to expand...

I am not here to throw stones at anyone. I have commented about safety many times on this forum and I am usually cast in the minority for my views. Nevertheless, I stand by what I have written.

The death toll in aviation is something that has bothered me from the beginning of my recent and short flying career and the last two weeks or so (3 P-51s crashed with two dead, two helicopters in Phoenix with four dead, three people dead at Scaled Composites trying to build an experimental aircraft, a biplane this afternoon with one dead) has done nothing to make me think that extreme caution is not warranted.

In nothing less than my first encounter with other RVers at an EAA RV Building class at Corona California two years ago the first thing that struck me was how the instructor of the class seemed to know so many people who had died attempting to fly experimental aircraft. A very, very sobering introduction to RVing I must say.

I have learned not to make rash judgements about what caused what accident. I do make my own judgements about what is a bad risk for myself and I have learned from this forum to try and be careful to say that these judgements are for me alone. I communicate my opinions here in order to try and elicit conversation on what I think are some of the most important issues of flying airplanes in general and RV in particular. In getting feedback from others I hope to better form my own knowledge about flying.

With regard to this incident, all I have commented about here is the tragedy of the lost pilots, and I also react against the "You're d*mn right it was worth it!" attitude that I feel too many of my pilot friends have in regard to taking the inherent risks of airplane flight.

It has been a bad two weeks here, and I object to the status quo opinion that everything bad that has happened is just normal, and to be expected and even necessary if we are ever to advance aviation. It isn't good, normal or acceptable. It's just bad.

-- John
 
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N53LW said:
Just heard Jim Leroy impacted the runway at the bottom of his loop at the Dayton airshow today. He died while being transported to the hospital. There is always risk involved with life, whether flying or driving. The familys of these aviators lost need our prayers at this time.
Click to expand...
He was the last of the "Masters of Dissaster". Man those guys could fly. It is devastating to the families that get left behind but in our private world we know the risks and we wouldn't want it any other way. God rest their souls and give peace to the families.

Bob Axsom

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1844/leroykp0.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8218/bobbyyounkinlear23np3.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1750/franklinkw9.jpg
 
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Nomex Maximus said:
The death toll in aviation is something that has bothered me from the beginning of my recent and short flying career and the last two weeks or so (3 P-51s crashed with two dead, two helicopters in Phoenix with four dead, three people dead at Scaled Composites trying to build an experimental aircraft, a biplane this afternoon with one dead) has done nothing to make me think that extreme caution is not warranted.

In nothing less than my first encounter with other RVers at an EAA RV Building class at Corona California two years ago the first thing that struck me was how the instructor of the class seemed to know so many people who had died attempting to fly experimental aircraft. A very, very sobering introduction to RVing I must say.

-- John Babrick
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you're most likely going to know of a lot more; and it certainly won't be just experimental.

I live next to an airport. I've seen the remains of a Commander 114 across the street before I occupied my home. I've seen the aftermath of a Baron with three end up in a pile of burned rubble against the street a block from my house. Have had two good friends die in experimental. Two acquaintances killed at Reno, a business associate died in a Rockwell Commander 112, as well as several other acquaintances in experimental and certified. And, an Arrow that I had reserved, crashed in California with a loss of four, just two days before I planned to take it over some rough mountain terrain. It was engine failure.

I guess you get the point, and I'm not trying to be cruel or morbid. It just happens....

L.Adamson
 
Nomex Maximus said:
The death toll in aviation is something that has bothered me from the beginning of my recent and short flying career and the last two weeks or so (3 P-51s crashed with two dead, two helicopters in Phoenix with four dead, three people dead at Scaled Composites trying to build an experimental aircraft, a biplane this afternoon with one dead) has done nothing to make me think that extreme caution is not warranted.
Click to expand...

Forget "aviation" for a moment and lets look instead at how many killed in "gasoline" related accidents this week. Car crashes, bus rollovers, pedestrians, bicyclists, guys with lawnmowers, kids sniffing the stuff, garage fires, somebody somewhere probably drowning in it, etc. Think about this: Do you feel reasonably safe driving your car? But what about Dale Earnhardt? Didn't he die in a car crash? When I first started flying and was worried about my safety, a more experienced pilot with a real cool head simply told me to not do stupid things and chances are I'd have a long happy flying life. I think stupid things are stuff like VFR into IMC, ignoring checklists, flying crappy equipment, etc. I know he's right. Lumping together airshow performer crashes, news helicopter accidents and rocket fuel explosions paints a completely unrealistic picture of what the typical RV'er is involved in. Do what the CFI taught you, continue learning, fly good equipment and it'll all be fine. It's only an airplane for cryin' out loud, not a spaceship.
 
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The fear of flying

Nomex Maximus said:
The death toll in aviation is something that has bothered me from the beginning of my recent and short flying career
-- John Babrick
Click to expand...

John, you've posted literally dozens of emails on your fear of flying. They're always couched in terms of concern about the safety of others....but it is transparently obvious that you are an ageing and anxious low time pilot and it is specifically your very own safety that really concerns you.

In one of your more memorable emails you stated that you would never fly on Xmas day because you didn't want to ruin that day forever for the rest of your family if you crashed and died. I chuckle every time I think about that comment.

John, if you fear flying so much then there's probably a very good reason for that. Perhaps you should consider a more sedate, less demanding, hobby....like say golf.
 
Captain Avgas said:
John, you've posted literally dozens of emails on your fear of flying. They're always couched in terms of concern about the safety of others....but it is transparently obvious that you are an ageing and anxious low time pilot and it is specifically your very own safety that really concerns you.

In one of your more memorable emails you stated that you would never fly on Xmas day because you didn't want to ruin that day forever for the rest of your family if you crashed and died. I chuckle every time I think about that comment.

John, if you fear flying so much then there's probably a very good reason for that. Perhaps you should consider a more sedate, less demanding, hobby....like say golf.
Click to expand...

So let me get this straight. If I express any concern about the death toll in this hobby/profession then I am a fearful silly wimp and unqualified to comment and should never again fly an airplane? I wonder why then I have managed to pass so many checkrides then... with so many apparently positive comments from instructors?

As to the Christams day thing: my wife (a non-pilot fulltime mother of two small adopted chidren) does not like my flying hobby and thinks it is an unnecessary risk. She asked me not to fly on the holidays. What should I do? Say, "Honey, you are being a silly woman. I am going to go ahead and fly today because I want to" or simply realize that this one thing is particularily important to the woman I love and postpone my flying to one of the other 364 days of the year? Even as I sit here writing this, my wife is in the next room watching the TV news about the P-51 crashes, biplane crash and the news chopper crash. Is it really too much for me to TRY and respect her emotions on this issue?

I have to say Bob, I am not really very impressed by your apparently cavalier attitude toward flying. I wish I had something friendlier to say.

-- John
 
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Safety

John,

I am usually the voice of reason and my "job" is all about "risk management" but I will tell you something a very old man told me when I was about 19 and in the Navy taking on risks men at that age do........

"The day you get on that thing and you aren't a little afraid of it, get off it'll bite you.

But, the day you get on it and you FEAR IT, get off forever or it WILL KILL YOU!"

Then you become the very statistic you quote regularly.

It's called a Self Fulfilling Prophesy, look it up before you keep flying or posting for that matter.

Sorry, but as you said, it's the nicest thing I can say right now.
 
Aviation, Risk and "Loss"

John, I think you are correct in the sense that there are inherent risks associated with flying. A given that I am sure we can all agree on. For my part I have lost five friends in 10 years of flying and known of many others peripherally. I've pulled bloodied aircraft out of fields and helped relatives sort through their loved ones hangars. That RV-6 crash in New Mexico, I almost did that ferry flight - maybe that could have been me. Who knows. My card wasn't dealt then. My friend Jim went down instead.

The problem here is that your are going on a diatribe about a subject that is touchy to everyone. While we can appreciate the "novice aviators" viewpoint I think perhaps your admitted inexperience makes it a little harder to take and gets the ire up. All aviators know we are accepting more risks than the Average Joe who couch potatoes his life away. However, without meaning to do so, your comments are belittling to those who choose to take those risks and amount to lecturing.

And yes, undoubtedly many of us have made compromises with the loved ones and avoided flying at certain times if it makes them uncomfortable. Each person has to make their choices and lie in the beds they make. Just make your choice a wise one for you.

Incidentally, since it was my 10th anniversary as a pilot this spring, I sat on the couch in my hangar with a beer in hand and pondered what I had learned in 10 years. A heckuva lot. I do things now that I would never have dreamed of 10 years ago - acro, formation, flying halfway across the country in a day, etc. You just have to remember one thing - like Dirty Harry used to say, "A man has got to know his limitations." If you know and plan for yours you will be fine. Right now some of things many of us do are outside of your comfort zone. In the future that may change.

Would I have flown into OSH or SnF 10 years ago after getting my ticket, no way! Would I now? You betcha, and I'd still sweat all the details, but I know that with the experience I'd be on my game.

Know your limitations, but don't assume others limitations are the same.

Fly safe, fly smart; keep the wife happy.

Rob
 
Nuf Said?

John:

I respect your feelings, respect of your wife's requests and to use a much overworked cliche', "comfort level". I believe in exploring the limits of a "comfort level" and, with proper instruction, demonstration and practice, this level can be safely expanded for anyone. Your opinions and observations are from a unique point of view, as are those of George and Bob. Without knowing the individual, it is unwise for any of us to judge or criticize those views unles done in a constructive manner.

While not knowing you except through your posts, I too perceive trepidation in your approach to aviation and aviation safety. I have always believed in approaching difficult situation that vigilance is constructive and agree with Bob that fear is usually destructive. With that said, I would encourage you with the following suggestions:

Explore additional training, including aerobatic and recurrent emergency training.

Encourage your wife to participate in a "pinch hitter" type seminar or training to dispel some of her perceptions and fears of GA.

Keep posting your views, opinions and observations despite any perceived criticism. All constructive posts, opinion posts and even controversial posts stimulate thought and invite others to share insights that both you and I may not have considered due to our experiences or lack there of.

Lastly, fill that empty seat with another pilot and learn from their life lessons. No matter your age, I have found that learning never ends and can come from the most unlikely experiences or sources.

Good luck and God Bless you.
 
If the hat fits

Nomex Maximus said:
If I express any concern about the death toll in this hobby/profession then I am a fearful silly wimp -- John Babrick
Click to expand...

I wouldn't personally use those words John.... but since you've raised the matter I don't think we should discount the possibility ;) .
 
Nomex Maximus said:
The death toll in aviation is something that has bothered me from the beginning of my recent and short flying career and the last two weeks or so (3 P-51s crashed with two dead, two helicopters in Phoenix with four dead, three people dead at Scaled Composites trying to build an experimental aircraft, a biplane this afternoon with one dead) has done nothing to make me think that extreme caution is not warranted.

-- John Babrick
Click to expand...

During this same time period nearly 1,600 people died in auto crashes in the US alone, 115 died from asprin poisoning, 5 drowned in their bath tubs.

You are reacting to the news media hype, not facts. Life is meant to be lived. Get busy livin!
 
//You are reacting to the news media hype,Ah, yes, the news media again. Funny, though. People are posting links about the crash and nobody here started a post about aspirin poisonings. So who exactly is responsible for the fact people are talking about this again?
 
Guys -

I had four posts here in this thread.

The first was simply a link to the news stories about the crash and asked if anyone had any details.

The second was a response to Howard and the others when the topic seemed to be drifting toward the safety factors of Airventure. My comment there was that I couldn't imagine flying there would be a good idea for me and my reasons for why it didn't seem like a good idea for me.

I was going to leave it all at that. However, Jack responded by questioning whether I should be flying at all. I responded with clarification that I was just writing for myself and explanation just how much death and destruction I have become aware of since becoming an RV builder. And Bob chimed in with his remarks. For me, it seems that the other side of this debate comes from a very weak position.

A touchy subject? I am sure it is. We all pretty much buy these kits after a long hard decisionmaking process considering many other aircraft and which one will meet our individual requirements of cost, performance, ease of construction, time to build, and many others. We invest a lot of our time, hearts and souls into the particular airplanes we build. We build so we can fly which, I hope is a driving passion for us all.

But since flying is a passion for us, I suspect that it becomes a passion that sometimes clouds our judgements - when we build, when we fly, and when we talk about how we fly. It seems to me that when I have posted here about safety issues that some people nod in agreement but the ones who object usually object on the grounds of "it would interfere with my personal liberty" or "I have been doing this for X decades and I'm still alive" or "don't bring us down with your talk about problems with flying or RVs. This is my dream-come-true you are attacking here". None of these responses seem very rational to me particularly when we have had as bad a two week period as we have had here.

I am not afraid of flying. Not at all. I am not obsessed with fear as some seem to think. What makes for a good day of flying for me is to have flown, landed and be able to say that I did everything right - I flew well, I obeyed all the regs, I had good plans for all contingencies, I was cooperative in the airspace with other pilots, etc. I don't know what instructors you have been trained by, but every one I have been trained by (and there have been a lot so far) have impressed on me the need for safety that has always gone way beyond my ability as a pilot to meet. For example, do you ALWAYS have a effective plan of action for an engine out just after takeoff? Or, do you ALWAYS have a next landing site in sight when you are flying? Do you particiapte in the FAA WINGS program? Or any of a number of other details - perhaps you do fly with every T crossed and every I dotted - but I usually forget a few things here and there and so does most everyone else - and this is obvious from reading the NTSB reports.

I guess I am not your typical RV builder and I don't fit in here. I shouldn't say anything negative - ever. I shouldn't concern myself with statistics or accident reports. What I should have is an attitude that says if I die while flying then everyone should stand around my grave with a can of beer in their hands and say, "Well, he died doing what he loved to do ***burp***".

I guess what I am trying to say is that I approach this RV thing with eyes wide open. If I judged the task ahead to be too dangerous I could easily walk away from it, sell the kit and never have a second bad thought about it. But I continue on in this endeavour because I do think I can manage the risks - by keeping my eyes wide open and maintaining a sober assessment of what the risks are. As far as I am concerned most aircraft accidents don't "just happen".

If I had never posted in this forum, and we met at an RV fly in, and we flew together I am sure we'd all like each other. If we spoke face to face about flying experiences, safety issues, concerns, etc, I am pretty sure we'd still all like each other and still fly together. And if you asked me about flying to Oshkosh, I'd simply tell you it wasn't for me and I'd tell you to let me know how it was when you got back.

Fly well friends

JCB
 
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jimpappas said:
John,

I am usually the voice of reason and my "job" is all about "risk management" but I will tell you something a very old man told me when I was about 19 and in the Navy taking on risks men at that age do........

"The day you get on that thing and you aren't a little afraid of it, get off it'll bite you.

But, the day you get on it and you FEAR IT, get off forever or it WILL KILL YOU!"

Then you become the very statistic you quote regularly.

It's called a Self Fulfilling Prophesy, look it up before you keep flying or posting for that matter.
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Couldn't agree more. FEAR gets in the way of rational thinking, it locks up the brain. Respect for the risk of flying (not blind fear) leaves room for decisions based on the circumstances of the immediate situation, not on how many pilots have been killed doing things that have nothing to do with the current challenge, whatever it is.

Doing what we do also requires a certain amount of faith. I have been in enough situations to come to believe there are guardian angels for those who practise prudent risk management, never stop learning, and respect the laws of nature. There are of course no guarantees as we all have a date with our maker, but the personal satisfaction of flight is so compelling for me, I will never stop doing it as long as I can make a decent landing. The box may get smaller - I do not fly SEL at night or IFR or over miles and mile of rocks - but that does not detract from the enjoyment of flight. It's a part of risk management, common sense, personal limits, and an outlook that comes with being around for a while.

Some young aviators are fearless which is as dangerous as being obsessed with fear. As you grow older, if you survive, you figure out the difference and make adjustments. That may be why show pilots eventually retire if they live that long. It is risky business and most of them know it.

As a matter of interest, Debby Gary flew her last show at OSH this year. I met her at Flabob back in the 70's looking at a Pitts S2. She was an acro instructor at the time. I was considering doing the acro thing but decided I had my fill of it in the military - never really understood why people enjoy flying upside down or being sucked down with 4 or 5 G's. It's mighty uncomfortable. :)
 
Nomex Maximus said:
Guys -

....if you asked me about flying to Oshkosh, I'd simply tell you it wasn't for me and I'd tell you to let me know how it was when you got back.

Fly well friends

JCB
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Nomex Maximus - you are OK and an excellent pilot - you know and respect your limits. I predict when you are ready, you WILL fly to OSH if they don't price the show out of reach for EAA members. I do not understand why the event has to be so driven by money.....which of course has nothing to do with this thread.
 
Say What??

I wonder how many folks who went to the show buy car ended up in a driving accident on the way home which resulted in a death?? 600,000 people visit and things happen I guess we should all stay home and stick our heads in the sand.

Me, I will take a few calculated risks to enjoy my life? My wife feels the same, Made her first sky diving jump on the way to Oshkosh and loved it ? too risky ??? Maybe.

I make this comment because when you hear about an aircraft accident many see it as proof that this is a dangerous adventure, you rarely hear about automobile accidents and I know there are many more of them. Yes everyone needs to set their own limits but... don?t let life pass you by because it?s risky ? LIFE is risky. Evaluate the risk, Create a plan, an if its something you want to do and your comfortable with the risk ? Do IT
 
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Hard Knox...

Hard Knox said:
John:

I respect your feelings, respect of your wife's requests and to use a much overworked cliche', "comfort level" . . . I would encourage you with the following suggestions:

Explore additional training, including aerobatic and recurrent emergency training.

Encourage your wife to participate in a "pinch hitter" type seminar or training to dispel some of her perceptions and fears of GA.

Keep posting your views, opinions and observations despite any perceived criticism. All constructive posts, opinion posts and even controversial posts stimulate thought and invite others to share insights that both you and I may not have considered due to our experiences or lack there of.

Lastly, fill that empty seat with another pilot and learn from their life lessons. No matter your age, I have found that learning never ends and can come from the most unlikely experiences or sources.

Good luck and God Bless you.
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Robby -

Thanks for your comments. Simply writing about aviation safety does not make me obsessed with fear.

In 200 hours of flight time I have now had 90 hours of dual, much of that after my PPL. And much of the remaining PIC hours have been spent practicing for checkrides, building cross country time and maintaining currency. Also, I have attended numerous WINGS seminars. And, I will be at the AOPA convention this fall spending three days at seminars. Because I enjoy it and want to be more proficient, not because I am obsessed with fear of flying.

My wife attended a pinch-hitter seminar two years ago. She enjoyed it, spent three weeks reading over my Jepessen textbook, and was almost ready to get some flight time with my instructor when she finally decided that the risks of GA flying were unacceptable to her.

And... Tuesday night I had the privilege of flying right seat to a CAP member who has over forty years of flying experience and is and instructor and the checkpilot for our squadron. He seems to think I am ready for my initial checkride and does not seem to think I am obsessed with fear. If he did, I am sure he wouldn't fly with me.

And keep in mind my fulltime occupation is designing coding and debugging flight display and flight management software for airliners and military aircraft. I would think you would all hope that I was obsessed with safety as I work on that kind of stuff....

All in all, not bad for a person who does not actually make any money flying.

--JCB
 
[email protected] said:
? My wife feels the same, Made her first sky diving jump on the way to Oshkosh and loved it ? too risky ??? Maybe.
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I hope you went back and picked her up, and didn't go to OSH by yourself...
Cause she'd likely be pretty mad. ;)
 
Jump

The thought had cross my mind, but no I picked her up and we had a great time. The problem was getting the canopy closed after. Ha Ha (Tip-Up) I find flying with my wife a great adventure, she is level headed which brings me down to earth if I get worked up about something. She now wants to take the pinch hitter course and hopes we can do some traveling in the RV. She bucked many a rivet but this was her first long flight in the RV and she loves the extra speed over our old PA28-160. Life is good except that this jumping thing is starting to look expensive.... she wants to go again .... I think I opened Pandora's Box.
 
JCB....

I will probably never fly into Oshkosh. Partly is because I question the value of flying into some place with that much added risk at high traffic volume times. Obviously I could fly to a nearby airport or fly in during a low traffic period.

I considered going to Sun n Fun this year as part of a SE USA trip and read the NOTAM extensively. I did not make that trip.

Personally, I prefer the smaller fly-ins such as LOE. I learned from this forum about two or three new EFIS systems. If LOE ever added vendors like that it would be a nicer event.
 
Formation take-offs and landings add unnecessary risk

Just got back home from OSH...had to go commercial because of the wx. I was at the other end of the runway when this wreck happened. I couldn't see anything from my vantage point and the EAA announcer said nothing about a wreck. Everyone knew something was up because of the emergency vehicles, big forklift racing by, and, of course, the airshow was stopped cold in its tracks. The announcer blathered on about the good weather, the well behaved crowd, various EAA public service announcements, all very upbeat... meanwhile we all knew something bad had happened. Very annoying to hear such patronizing BS. I later talked to people who witnessed the wreck. It is undeniable...this wreck would not have happened if they had not been landing in formation. I recall a formation take-off in 1999 at OSH that resulted in a collision between Howard Pardue's Bearcat and a Corsair. The Corsair pilot was nearly killed. Bad airmanship in both cases. Tom P. should get control of this and put a stop to it. Here is another link to a video: http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=3692 Here is a link to the 99 wreck: http://www.aafo.com/racing/news/99/07-31-99.htm
 
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Fatal error

I'm not formation endorsed but I was always led to believe that the rear plane in a landing formation must always touch down before the lead plane. A smart lead pilot will check to see that the plane behind him is lower than him on short final...if it's not he should go around.

The problem with the lead plane touching down first is that the lead plane then slows down which results in the possibility of the rear plane (which is still flying) gaining on it and causing a collision.

It looks to me in the video that the front plane touched down first. That could have been a fatal error.
 
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Captain Avgas said:
I'm not formation endorsed but I was always led to believe that the rear plane in a landing formation must always touch down before the lead plane. A smart lead pilot will check to see that the plane behind him is lower than him on short final...if it's not he should go around.

The problem with the lead plane touching down first is that the lead plane then slows down which results in the possibility of the rear plane (which is still flying) gaining on it and causing a collision.

It looks to me in the video that the front plane touched down first. That could have been a fatal error.
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This is absolutely true as a general rule for formation flying, but the discussion in the campground (including members of the warbird community) had concluded this wasn't an intentional formation landing.

I didn't witness it personally, but apparently the A-model (green wings, fastback) had gone around once and was on his second approach. The D-model (yellow-nosed "Stang" painted like Lou IV) was landing as a single ship, and the A-model just didn't see him under the long nose.

I don't think either pilot was aware of the other until the right wing of the airborne A-model collided with the empennage of the D-model.

If the controllers were watching, they probably made the assumption that this was turning into an impromptu formation landing.

The real take home point from this tragedy (apart from the obvious see-and-avoid) is that you are either in formation or not, and if you haven't briefed, you're not.
 
Brief before any formation flight. Have standard procedures laid down. Land in echelon if you must do a formation landing. You know what to expect and you have an "out". Generally how the military does it. Not that this will prevent every accident like this but it may help.

Very sad. :(
 
Let's not be so quick to judge...

Listers,

Any accident with a plane dampens our spirits. If you are a pilot and you have a pulse, you cannot help reacting to such events in horror.

For some, it brings up the reality of our mortality, thus is uncomfortable. For others, it kindles fear that a favorite airshow will be cancelled by the terrified public. Some of us fear increases of our insurance rates. It touches us all in many ways.

I also know that as pilots, we mentally distance ourselves from others who die or make mistakes, citing that that could 'never happen to me', "becuase I'm a (insert your favorite rationalization here) Pilot."

I want to caution us about making judgemental statements about any aircraft accident, especially with regard to the pilot's abilities and motivation. Why? I have a personal personal perspective.

I used to criticize pilots involved in accidents all the time, internally, via email and with pilot friends. I'd mentally judge them about their lack of commitment, lack of training, anything to make me feel superior. I realize now that I was saying these things to make myself feel better, thus safe. I consoled myself with the mantra: "It could never happen to me, I"m just too good, train too hard, etc."

...........then I had an incident that involved aircraft damage and bodily injury in a very public place.

Within 15 minutes, a big black SUV rolled up to the scene, and two men told me to get in. Mouth dry, stomace cramped in fear, I sat in the airconditioned backseat grilled by men in sunglasses and ballcaps. The driver's hat said NTSB, and the passenger's said FAA. I haven't been the same since.

Once you've been there, you are a changed pilot.

I hope this never happens to any of us on this list. I also hope that if you do have an incident, you (or your survivors) never stumble accross an email or conversation among strangers that professes to know why your accident happened and how it could have been avoided. The aftermath of an accident is tough enough for everyone, especially those directly involved.

Art in Asheville
 
atreff said:
Listers,

Any accident with a plane dampens our spirits. If you are a pilot and you have a pulse, you cannot help reacting to such events in horror.

For some, it brings up the reality of our mortality, thus is uncomfortable. For others, it kindles fear that a favorite airshow will be cancelled by the terrified public. Some of us fear increases of our insurance rates. It touches us all in many ways.

I also know that as pilots, we mentally distance ourselves from others who die or make mistakes, citing that that could 'never happen to me', "becuase I'm a (insert your favorite rationalization here) Pilot."

I want to caution us about making judgemental statements about any aircraft accident, especially with regard to the pilot's abilities and motivation. Why? I have a personal personal perspective.

I used to criticize pilots involved in accidents all the time, internally, via email and with pilot friends. I'd mentally judge them about their lack of commitment, lack of training, anything to make me feel superior. I realize now that I was saying these things to make myself feel better, thus safe. I consoled myself with the mantra: "It could never happen to me, I"m just too good, train too hard, etc."

...........then I had an incident that involved aircraft damage and bodily injury in a very public place.

Within 15 minutes, a big black SUV rolled up to the scene, and two men told me to get in. Mouth dry, stomace cramped in fear, I sat in the airconditioned backseat grilled by men in sunglasses and ballcaps. The driver's hat said NTSB, and the passenger's said FAA. I haven't been the same since.

Once you've been there, you are a changed pilot.

I hope this never happens to any of us on this list. I also hope that if you do have an incident, you (or your survivors) never stumble accross an email or conversation among strangers that professes to know why your accident happened and how it could have been avoided. The aftermath of an accident is tough enough for everyone, especially those directly involved.

Art in Asheville
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Absolutely well stated. The most recent Transport Canada Safety Letter had an excellent article about whether reading accident reports really helped pilots fly safer. It makes many of the same points you do.

I had armchair critics all over me when I published the account of my forced landing on my website. They had everything figured out before the investigation was even completed. I ripped a strip off a couple of vocal ones and asked them to wait for the facts.

I must say I also received a good dozen other E-mails congratulating me for getting the airplane down in one piece (mostly). These were almost universally from other pilots who had had similar experiences in real life and knew what a real emergency and real forced landing were all about. Once you have one of these, you think differently all right.

Asking questions is a good thing. Making observations based on facts is also constructive in most cases. In almost all accidents, there are things which could have been done differently to avoid it. At some point, we have to accept these and hopefully learn from them. Few people like to admit that they goofed but that is the reality most of the time. It is just really painful when people are lost or injured.
 
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