RV-12 as an E-AB & LSA

OK, I'm new at this forum, Vans and E-ABs, so please forgive my ignorance...

My goal is to build with my son a two seater E-AB that will be VFR/Private Pilot certified (I hold a Private Pilot's Certificate) and that my son can use to train to get his LSP. Then my son will use it for his Private Pilot certificate training after gaining some LSP experience. We then we would like to modify the plane for IFR training for both he and I.

While my son's trains for LSP and Private, I will use the aircraft for day/night VFR. As we are in Dallas B airspace, and any LSP we consider will have to be virtually GA VFR certified anyway.

I'm thinking the RV-12 kit with necessary GA instrument/lighting. With IFR instruments added later (spread the money as far as possible!)

I'd like to be sure what I am planning is within the RV-12 E-AB capabilities, registrations/regulations/etc.? And for that matter I'm wide open to ideas/thoughts/recommendations considering my goals?

No Problem

You can build the RV-12 either as E-LSA or E-AB and it can meet your requirements. If you build as E-LSA, any mods or additions must be made after initial certification. If you build E-AB, you can do them during the build.
Contact me if you want to talk.
972-784-7544

It is important that you understand the difference between an E-LSA and an E-AB. It sounds like you do, which is a great start. The E-LSA must be built exactly like Vans' S-LSA, but may later be modified after certification. The E-AB may be built with whatever equipment you want. The RV-12, built under E-AB rules, may or may not be an LSA. For example, you could build an RV-12 with a gross weight over 1320 pounds, which would take it out of the LSA category, or (in theory), you might build it with a constant speed propeller. So, it is also important that you understand the limitations of an LSA and be sure that you build your RV-12 within those limitations.

There is no limitation that says your E-AB (LSA) can't be fully IFR equipped. However, a pilot licensed only as a Sport Pilot must only fly the plane during daytime, VFR conditions. An IFR-rated private pilot, on the other hand, may certainly fly the same planes in IMC assuming the plane meets all the requirements for such flight.

In summary, your plan should work very well, provided you keep all these rules in mind while you build. You might want to consider building it as an IFR equipped plane now, giving you the option to fly it in IMC or even use it as an IFR trainer right away. Keep in mind that all almost experimentals are restricted from commercial use, including commercial flight instruction. Be sure you understand those rules too, although they won't apply to you and your family.

Not sure I see any benefit to building the -12 a E-AB. With dual Skyviews, you have a lot of capability for eventual IFR use. I'm a private pilot but my son is using the airplane to get his LSA license. He will likely upgrade to a PPL down the road.

If you build as a E-LSA, you get a 5 hour flyoff and then you can change it all you want. I would only go E-AB if you plan to put a different engine in it or significantly different avionics.

My $ 02.

Is Van's RV-12 SLSA IFR eligible? Some foreign SLSA aircraft now have manufacturer statements that virtually prohibit it being made IFR compliant. I'm not sure if this applies to an E-LSA that derived from such an S-LSA or not, but something maybe the experts can comment on so it's taken into considreration before the build decision.
If you are absoluteltely certain that you will both eventually fly as Private pilots, then I'd give some thought to an E-AB. That way, if you ever decieded you need to add a constant speed prop or other change that disqualifies the plane from being E-LSA, then you are not shoved out in the certification no-man's land. In other words, it may be that you can not change an E-LSA to an E-AB. Maybe someone can comment on that.

You should make sure you are clear about IFR and IMC. Operating limitations could technically allow IFR but not IMC. Useful for training.

IFR is a limitation of equipment. If it's equipped for IFR, then someone with an instrument rating (and hence a PPL to start) can file IFR.

However, in general, the operating limitations prevent IMC, and specifically the RV-12 POH says:

WARNING
Flight in IFR/IMC conditions is prohibited.

Click to expand...

An E-LSA can have the POH changed by the experimenter. An S-LSA cannot.

Thanks, Guys!

Some great advice! The reasons I'm leaning towards the E-AB is for the building experience to be shared with my son, as well as I would like to use non-standard power plant/instruments.

I appreciate the feed-back, it appears I'm not totally crazy..... well no more than most pilots I guess!

I really appreciate ya'll's guidance!

Randy is right. Build ELSA unless you have some HUGE modification reason to build as EAB. Easy to make changes after the build. Easy enough to equip for IFR after the build is done and my operating docs don't preclude flying IFR if the plane is equipped for IFR. (It's not and I don't plan to do so but it would not be difficult for light IFR.)

There are big advantages for resale for ELSA over EAB. Anyone that buys an ELSA can take a weekend course and get annual inspection signoff authority. Can't do that on an EAB.

kbkasner said:

Some great advice! The reasons I'm leaning towards the E-AB is for the building experience to be shared with my son, as well as I would like to use non-standard power plant/instruments.

I appreciate the feed-back, it appears I'm not totally crazy..... well no more than most pilots I guess!

I really appreciate ya'll's guidance!

Click to expand...

Don't want to discourage you from changing the powerplant, but do a lot of research before you make this decision. There are a number of different powerplants in use on the -12 and many of those folks are here on this forum. If your goal is to build it with your son and then fly it, you may diverge on a path that MAY take you longer to complete, MAY cause you to spend more money, and MAY result in an airplane with less residual value. Just go in with your eyes wide open.

There are some tremendously talented people on this forum who can help you with the alternative powerplant decision. Use the search feature on the forum to find many, many threads on these alternatives.

Good luck with your decision and welcome to the good ship VAF.

List of Mods.

Again, thank you for the suggestions! They got me thinking....

I'm about 75% decided on the RV12 but the Sonex with quick build sub-kits is running a close second.

RV-12 thoughts:
+ ease/well documented build
+ support group (you guys)
+ easily detachable wings
+ large cockpit
- Vne at 160mph.
- no quick build kit options

Sonex thoughts:
+ Jabariu 120 hp
+ Sonex's Vne over 190 mph
+ quick build kit options

This being considered....I can't find much on S-LSA qualifications, other than it appears Van sales a completed plane that qualifies. I really want to share the building experience with my son, so no quick build kit for RV-12 is a definite negative, but the pre-formed/drilled parts may offset to some extent this negative.

The Vne differences play a factor as well, I cruise for business usually 300 mile day trips, and in my old Mooney I loved getting approach/tower clearance over 'slowtations' thinking about what the jet jockeys were thinking when they saw me coming down from altitude at 200mph+.

Any suggestions/thoughts on S-LSA "quick build" alternatives, using a 120hp or the Vne differences?

Re: Quick Build: the harder parts (with the possible exception of the longerons) of building an RV-12 would not be alleviated by a quick build option. This is purely personal opinion based on my experience, but I found the fiberglass trimming and fitting, the canopy work, and that type of thing to be far more of a challenge than assembling the airframe.

Re: VNE: I cannot imagine a scenario absent complete loss of control wherein that would make a bit of difference. The 12 is non-aerobatic and not approved for intentional spins, so the normal flight regime fits well within a 160mph VNE

Re: 120 hp. As it is, the 12 has more power than it really needs with the 100 hp Rotax. Even at gross weight it climbs very well, and an additional 20 hp (minus the extra weight of the engine) would more than likely equate to better rate of climb than it would to increased cruise speed, which is legally capped at 120 knots anyway.

Add to your RV-12 pluses: ease of resale. A lot of people brush that off with the insistence that they will never sell, yet a lot planes seem to show up on Barnstormers eventually. A Van's RV-12 is likely to sell better than a Sonex (purely opinion here - YMMV)

Just MY opinions - -

If you have not ridden in either, you may want to. Any LSA is light, and will give you a much rougher ride than a 'heavy' GA plane. Flying in the middle of a hot summer day can be less than fun. It will also seem like a serious change in speeds perhaps from your stated experience.

Jab engines have experienced many more problems than Rotax. They run fine, but history I feel backs up what I said.

I have flown many different planes. For their intended purpose, the RV-12 is as good as I've seen. I have over 700 hours on mine. Engine runs as good as any one.

Fly both if you can.

kbkasner said:

Again, thank you for the suggestions! They got me thinking....

I'm about 75% decided on the RV12 but the Sonex with quick build sub-kits is running a close second.

RV-12 thoughts:
+ ease/well documented build
+ support group (you guys)
+ easily detachable wings
+ large cockpit
- Vne at 160mph.
- no quick build kit options

Sonex thoughts:
+ Jabariu 120 hp
+ Sonex's Vne over 190 mph
+ quick build kit options

This being considered....I can't find much on S-LSA qualifications, other than it appears Van sales a completed plane that qualifies. I really want to share the building experience with my son, so no quick build kit for RV-12 is a definite negative, but the pre-formed/drilled parts may offset to some extent this negative.

The Vne differences play a factor as well, I cruise for business usually 300 mile day trips, and in my old Mooney I loved getting approach/tower clearance over 'slowtations' thinking about what the jet jockeys were thinking when they saw me coming down from altitude at 200mph+.

Any suggestions/thoughts on S-LSA "quick build" alternatives, using a 120hp or the Vne differences?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about the lack of a QB option on the -12, for reasons stated earlier. The prepunched parts make a huge time savings on their own. Both aircraft use blind rivets. Besides, if you want to share a building experience, why would you go quickbuild?

The Sonex is aerobatic, if that's important to you; the Vne difference will be to your advantage there. However, you mention cruising flight and Vne together; the only place that'll matter is in your descent at the end of the flight. Realistic cruise speeds for both aircraft will probably be pretty close since both are LSAs.

The Sonex will also be cheaper (to build or to buy) but your resale value will also be proportionally lower. You also won't recover the added cost of the quick-build option. And that cost difference will shrink as you add the QB option, Jabiru engine, and additional avionics.

The Sonex cockpit is pretty small; depending on how big you and your son are you may feel cramped. Go at least sit in both (if not fly both) before deciding.

The RV-12 can be built E-LSA, with the shorter fly-off/test period (if that matters to you). The Sonex cannot; it will be E-AB with the 40 hour test period.

Manufacturer support for systems/avionics installation is more complete on the RV-12; though some of us like doing that sort of thing on our own.

The Sonex is available with the little wheel on the proper end of the airplane; Van's hasn't (yet) offered that as an option for the -12.

In the end, you have to go with what works best for you. Again, if at all possible, get a chance to fly and look over both airplanes before making your decision.

For your information, when I was making the same decision, the narrow cockpit of the Sonex was a deal breaker. Since then there has become available a kit to make the Sonex cockpit wider for two larger pilots.

The Rv-12

The RV-12 takes about 800 hours to build and does not need a quick build kit.
The accuracy of rivit holes ( w/in 1000 if a inch) make it easy to build. The dual Garmin package for IFR only need a second comm/ils/mave radio added for IFR. I,m getting a 32 ft trailer to keep the A/C in with the removable wings, Savings on hanger rent. Good luck on your project.

No doubt some builders could build an RV-12 in 800 hours, but for first-time builders I think it would be more realistic to allow 1000-1200 hours for an un-primed, unpainted aircraft - and some of us have taken a lot longer than that! I had an idea that Vans were considering a quick-build RV-12 kit at one stage.

rgmwa said:

No doubt some builders could build an RV-12 in 800 hours, but for first-time builders I think it would be more realistic to allow 1000-1200 hours for an un-primed, unpainted aircraft - and some of us have taken a lot longer than that! I had an idea that Vans were considering a quick-build RV-12 kit at one stage.

Click to expand...

True, not everyone does.... but a lot of builders have completed an RV-12 in 800-900 hrs (what at Van's is considered the average). Some people take more time, and others less (there are quite a few experienced builders that have completed one in 500-600 hrs).

Experience definitely helps, Scott. Having now completed one RV-12, I'm pretty sure I could do another one in average hours. In fact the airframe goes together quite quickly, and lulls you into a false sense of optimism. It's the fibreglass, canopy, wiring and FWF that seems to soak up the time. Also if you decide to prep and prime the internal surfaces, that can add a LOT of hours.

Why Sport Pilot

If your son is going to learn to fly in your own plane why not go straight into Private? A RV-9 sounds like it would meet your mission a lot better and can be built for about the same price if you find good deals on an engine and avionics.

The regulations prohibit an LSA from cruising faster than 138 mph. There is not much difference between the cruise speeds of the RV-12 and Sonex. The RV-12 never exceed speed is actually 156 mph compared to the Sonex 197 mph. Both planes need to be going downhill to attain those speeds. If my RV-12 was going faster than 140 mph, I would be very concerned about hitting turbulence that could damage the airframe. I agree with others that the RV-12 goes together so quickly, that a quick build kit is not necessary. The plans contain step by step directions. The builder checks off each step when completed.
A friend of mine is building a Onex. When his kit arrived, he took inventory and found the blueprints but could not find the directions. So he called the factory and was told that there are no directions. The builder must look at the prints and figure out what to do. I am not knocking the Sonex. But RV-12 builders are spoiled and might find a Sonex more challenging to build. I am sure that there are many happy and satisfied Sonex builders.

I am building a RV-12 and fly with my friend that has the Sonex Waix and there is a big difference in the cockpits.
The Sonex is a lot more cramped and harder to get in and out of.
It flies good but I like the RV better.
Getting into the RV is a lot easier and you step from the wing right onto the floor. The Sonex you have to step on the seat and then slide into position and trying to get out can be a lot harder as we get older.
You have more room on the panel to install the avionics and skyview on the RV-12 also.
Like other have said--- see if you can sit in each one and see what you think.
If you can wait and can get to Sun-n-Fun in April you can probably check them all out.

I speak as a very meticulous mechanical engineer - but one who had never squeezed a rivet before getting the RV-12 kit. (I did make furniture though.) Build time 950 hours. Excellent result, see photos. A "quick build" RV-12 is almost an oxymoron!

The other posters are right - The time is in the Fiberglas and things like the canopy. I mean, me and one other guy skinned an entire wing in a short afternoon! Longerons are not difficult, search this forum for the word THWACK.

See pics of my RV12 going together here. Did essentially the entire thing by myself. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151245628228677.26907.100000297210697&type=1&l=d038dc92ef

Quick build--not needed to have fun building things with your son

I didn't keep an accurate track of how many build hours it took on my -12, I was in no great hurry, and being fully employed, took about three years to complete. That being said, actual assembly can go rather quickly with two people attacking the job. My oldest son was available one Saturday. We spent the morning hours completing some of the prep (primarily deburring) of wing parts, and then started about an eight-hour marathon session getting about 80% of one of the wings built, as seen in the attached time lapse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAcrO8Hf51U

Alternate engine installation could just about guarantee you significant additional build time--I found the RV-12/Rotax engine installation to be straightforward and a lot of fun.

Who Is Flying?

I often see RV-12's flying, plus lots of other RV's, but I almost never see a Sonex flying. Wonder why?
In my opinion, if you can afford the RV-12, it is a much better value.
Plus, two big tall & wide pilots fit in the RV-12 and not the Sonex.
It appears people like building the Sonex, but don't fly them much.
I've flown in a couple of RV-12's. An RV-12 owner I know is 6'3" and his son 6'5"... big guys. They have flown from Dallas to Oshkosh together.
My friend has a nice Sonex that mostly sits in his hangar & the two of us don't fit in his Sonex. He is getting ready to sell it.

Texas Flyer said:

I often see RV-12's flying, plus lots of other RV's, but I almost never see a Sonex flying. Wonder why?...
It appears people like building the Sonex, but don't fly them much.

Click to expand...

Some guesses...
-Sonex hasn't been around as long as Van's; their first customer airplane flew in 2000. They just passed the 500 completions mark last year.
-Early Sonex-family kits are less advanced than we're used to with recent RVs (think RV-4/6 level), and there are many scratchbuilders (meaning fewer and/or longer completions).
-As many of us find out after completing RVs, the outflow of money doesn't stop. The operating costs for a Sonex vs. an RV aren't actually that different; the fuel burn's a little lower and engine maintenance (particularly on the VW-powered aircraft) won't run to the Lycoming level, but the insurance, hangar, other airframe maintenance, etc. are probably not much different. I suspect this bites people whose overriding consideration in choosing a Sonex is cost--they were able to scrape together the funds to build the airplane but they can't afford to operate it.