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Interim plane before RV-7A?

B

bottlerocket

Member
So after much deliberation my wife and I have finally decided on an RV7A slider to purchase already flying. But a few days ago she decided to throw a massive wrench in my grand aviation plan... she wants to learn to fly as well (which went into the decision for the 7 instead of the 8 which makes this story slightly out of order chronologically, but stick with me).

This is fantastic news, right? But an RV... as a primary trainer... for someone who has only been in a GA aircraft a half-dozen times. She's been up in a few older 172s but thats it until yesterday a good friend of mine took her up in his 8A. She had a blast. Did some loops to music, and other than the acro, she did most of the flying. So side by side it is (vice a pilot-passenger setup), but I digress.

My concern is the handling characteristics of the RV7A. I know it is mild mannered, but still very snappy. Panic, throw in full deflection one way and look out. Part of me is trying to convince myself to just go for it and let her get her PPL in the RV7A, but the other half of me thinks the first half is crazy. I wouldn't teach my first (as of yet unborn) child learn to drive in a hot rodded Porsche Boxter, I'd let them beat the **** outta the Ford Escort I found on Craigslist.

What I had contemplated was this: We are saving for the RV7A currently, looking to purchase in the fall. But for now I found somewhat locally a late 70's Cessna 150L with 1600hrs on the motor and needs next to nothing to fly. Would I be crazy to buy this cash, let her learn to fly in it, then turn around and sell it in a few months to get the 7A? We could be flying NOW instead of later, and the guy who I wanted to teach her will be deploying in a few months so I'd rather her start soon.
 
Cessna

Welcome Christopher
I'm sure others will chime in but my vote is on the Cessna for training. I know several who did it exactly as you are thinking. Sell it when you're done and buy the 7a.
 
wirejock said:
Welcome Christopher
I'm sure others will chime in but my vote is on the Cessna for training. I know several who did it exactly as you are thinking. Sell it when you're done and buy the 7a.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, wirejock. I've only flown a 150 a handfull of times, it was the 150 II Commuter. With myself (230lbs) and one other (110lbs) we really didn't have much room for anything else but we were flying. I'm sure that would be the same with the Continental O-200 in this one
 
Only caution I can think of is to make sure you get a truly good deal on that 150. As the high hours get higher, the value continues to drop of course, and if you're counting on that cash (from the sale) to fund the 7A, your purchase and sales prices are bound to be important. Plenty of opportunity/risk for certified-airplane-priced maintenance expenditures to happen. Just important to recognize. Is renting for training an option?
 
greghughespdx said:
Only caution I can think of is to make sure you get a truly good deal on that 150. As the high hours get higher, the value continues to drop of course, and if you're counting on that cash (from the sale) to fund the 7A, your purchase and sales prices are bound to be important. Plenty of opportunity/risk for certified-airplane-priced maintenance expenditures to happen. Just important to recognize. Is renting for training an option?
Click to expand...

Yes its an option. Only trainer local is a 172 for $140/hr wet. For roughly $60/hr for operating and reserve costs on a 150 we would have to have a serious problem to catch up to the cost of a 172
 
Remember that if someone's starting at zero, then whatever they learn in will be 'normal' to them. I've taken a *lot* of people flying, both in a big-engine Swift and in RV's. When I let them take the controls, the adults, especially ones that have flown GA a/c before, are almost always ham fisted & scare me at some level, from a little to a lot. On the other hand, kids who have never been in a plane before almost always 1. listen to instruction on how to handle the stick, and 2. do it right within seconds at most. It's natural for the kid, because he has no expectation of anything different and it's all he knows.

I've heard and read that average time to solo during the age of 'classic' a/c (Cubs, Taylorcraft, Luscombes, etc) was pretty much the same as with more 'modern' (tricycle) trainers that in addition to ground handling, have little of the adverse yaw issues in flight that the old rudder a/c were known for. Even stall/spin issues were worse in a lot of the old planes.

The only reason I can think of to avoid using an RV for basic training is the landing gear might be a bit less tolerant of hard landings than something like a C150/172. Well, that and the fact that there's likely more (money) to lose if the RV gets bent. :)

Charlie
 
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It's always insurance

Assuming you want or need insurance, find a good agent and compare costs for a -7 with a zero time student vs. 50 hr pilot. Also find out what it would cost to insure the 150 for just a few months (typically insurance companies consider their premium earned at day one; if you sell after 3 months you will not get 9/12 of the premium back.)
Finally, as someone else mentioned, buying the 150 carries some risk: 50 hours and two months later you may suddenly find a cylinder with low compression, and the re-sale value just went down. At 1600 hrs a major overhaul might be years away, or it might be tomorrow.
Is $140/hr wet really the best rental around?
There is a third option: rent for 5 - 10 hours to get the worst of the bad landings behind her, then switch to the -7A.
 
I usually seem to agree with Bob and will yield to his experience. I too have considered buying a 150 to build hours in preparation of my RV-7 being airworthy. From the web browsing around that I have done there are '70s 150s available that are in good mechanical condition. We are talking about a plane for less than $30K maybe even as low as $20K. There are some with relatively low hours, not too many hours on the rebuilt engine and etc. If you decide to go down this path don't get impatient because I think there are some gems out there.

Having said all that I'm not sure it makes financial sense for the level of flying that you are talking about to not just rent a plane for her training. My personal desire was to try to get about 200 hours of flight time before I started flying my RV-7. That is a different goal than simply learning how to fly. I'm questioning the value of this purchase and my case and if you are only talking about 50 hours instead I'd say its very questionable.
 
Interim plane

Learning to fly is not the same thing as earning a pilots license. It doesn't take 50 hours to "learn to fly" assuming you mean learning the basic aeronautical skills. Navigation, airspace, advanced maneuvers can be learned/practiced/masters in your -7 - a good idea if that's the plane she'll be flying most of the time. Beside, you're assuming that just because she says she wants to learn to fly means that she will soldier through to her PPL. As a flight instructor, I've seen many who like the idea of flying but not the work involved in getting the PPL. Bottom line: Get her at least to sole in a rented trainer reassess options then. Good luck.

Robert
 
I might be the only vote so far...

but i say buy the 150 or rent. I had 300 hours when I transitioned to my Glasair, which other than landing 10 knots faster has basically the same handling as the RV, and learning to land it was a handful. Planes like the RV with high wing loading take constant attention during lamding, and in my experience, is intolerant of mistakes when compared to a cessna. In the Cessna you just pull the power near the ground and let it land itself. For me, learning to land was not easy. Learning how to make all the proper control inputs quickly when close to the ground when everthing was moving so fast took a lot of time, and importantly to this discussion, a lot of not so good landings.

As I'm sure you've read the RV nose gear isn't as forgiving of poor technique as a Cessna. Student pilots make a lot of bad landings. I wouldn't want have to worry about getting a phone call everytime my wife went for a training flight.

Also, consider these two things:

1) is there a CFI local to you who has experience giving instruction in an RV? More importantly primary instruction in an RV? I'm not a CFI but I would think the training syllabus in an RVV would be a little different than one on a standard trainer.
2) I'm not familiar with the tax laws in NC but here in California you'd have t to pay both sales tax and property tax on your C150 purchase. Those are costs which won't get recouped when you sell so they make the cost delta between renting and owning a trainer aircraft a little closer. Also don't forget to add the cost of insurance to that equation as well.

Good luck no matter which path you choose and congratulations on having a wide who wants to lean to fly. I can barley tell to my wife about flying....getteting her to train for a PPL? Forget about it....
 
Another option might be to look for a Grumman 2 seater or 4 seater as the interim airplane. The handling is more responsive than the 150, the visibility is much more like the RV, and the castering nose wheel is like the RV as well. I flew a Cherokee 140 and 180, a C150 and a Grumman Tiger before getting my 6A. NONE of them flew like the RV, but the Grumman was definitely the closest, and learning to handle the weak, castering nose gear and keep it unloaded carries over very nicely to an Alpha RV. Just one more option.
 
RENT

Consider this: any certified airplane you get cheap is going to need work. Unless you are a A&P IA that going to be not cheap.
When you try to sell it be in for a shock, you won't get what you think you should.
Many people start to get a PPL any never finish.
When I was training I paid the full amount up front which pretty much forced me to complete the course with no interruptions.
 
If your financial situation allows, rent for her training.

If it'll be easier on the wallet to learn in your RV, they're fine trainers. I've soloed a couple of private students in the 6A.
 
RV-6A for training

Vans donated an RV-6A kit to the EAA in 1997 registered N6YE. It was originally used to fly Young Eagles at EAA headquarters, it is now an EAA employee flying club aircraft. Don't know how many pilots have learned to fly in this aircraft.

Suggest you talk to EAA headquarters regarding the feasibility of teaching a pilot to learn to fly using an RV as their first aircraft. Also suggest you talk to the various transition trainers such as Mike Seager.
 
Just my 2 cents worth in this discussion and it may not be worth that much.

If your wife loves airplanes and flying and wants the license, set her up with a flight school and get the job done ASAP. Messing around with a nibble of instruction here and there in a rented airplane or one your own will take for ever. There a gazillion squares to fill getting the license and a good flight school gets them filled as efficiently as possible.

The transition to an RV is easy, she may do better than you in it. :)
 
terrye said:
Vans donated an RV-6A kit to the EAA in 1997 registered N6YE. It was originally used to fly Young Eagles at EAA headquarters, it is now an EAA employee flying club aircraft. Don't know how many pilots have learned to fly in this aircraft.

Suggest you talk to EAA headquarters regarding the feasibility of teaching a pilot to learn to fly using an RV as their first aircraft. Also suggest you talk to the various transition trainers such as Mike Seager.
Click to expand...


I've given about 80 young eagle rides in 6 and 7YE! :D
 
Quick napkin math:

The late 70's 150, if you buy at $20K? With the Continental in it, I believe that TBO is 1800 hours. After 100 hours of flying the next year, that C150 will be essentially timed out, and probably worth $17k maybe less. I'd bet a quick look around, timed out 150's are closer to the $16k range. Lets be honest, timed out 150's are a dime a dozen, unless you have a great avionics package, its will take a little while to sell it at any decent price.


That's a $30 per hour loss in value. Add the operating expenses you mentioned, another $60, and you are at $90 per hour. Your insurance for a zero time student will be up there. For arguments sake add $20 per hour for that. Now you are $110 per hour and out the opportunity costs of that original $20k.

For an extra $30 per hour she is in a bigger, safer airplane that the two of you can actually cross country in. And you do not have to resell it.

just my opinion.
 
Thanks for everyone's input. Spoke with the wife last night, she doesn't want to rush her PPL so we're going to just go straight to the RV7A. I'll be flying us around and let her take it from time to time and get some experience. If she's not comfortable taking lessons in it, we'll rent a 172 when the time is right. Now just a couple more months and I need to find a nice 7A slider VFR+ or IFR :cool:
 
I agree with the others that learning in an RV is relatively the same as learning in a Cessna. Learning is learning. The basics are the same. You'll be using a stick or a yoke. Stick pilots are better pilots than yoke pilots (IMO); it's all about feeling and finesse.

That said, I learned to fly (back in the day) in a rented C172. As soon as I got my license, I bought a C150 to build time in and do my instrument training in. I was your size at the time and my CFII was about 150. If we weren't off the ground by 9am, we weren't flying together that day. (I was in the Mojave desert). Even with the both of us in the plane, climb rates were dismal in the summer, BUT it can work if you're carefly about DA.

By the way, I have a 1969 C150 here in the shop that we're about to put on the market for $15k as soon as the annual is done. There are deals to be had out there; just look around. If you can spring for the RV ($$), do it and learn in what you'll fly!
 
Lots of options

You could always get an RV-9! :) Then when you are feeling sporty, move on up to a -7. Or build the -7 you want while you learn in the -9! Grummans are great also. The -7 is not a bad airplane to learn in. Best wishes in your quest! I'm NOT a fan of renting airplanes. If you do, go to somewhere that is recommended by mechanics for good mx on their fleet.
Best,
Brian
 
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