RV-6 Hanging / Suspended Rudder Pedal Weld Tear

Following a test flight after servicing the tailwheel on my RV-6, while taxiing in, I felt the left seat right rudder pedal mush forward with little effect on my right turn. Differential braking allowed completion of the taxi-in, albeit with some discomfort as to what was going on. Upon post-flight inspection, the left seat right rudder pedal was sitting about 30 degrees forward of the left rudder pedal, while the right seat rudder pedals were aligned evenly. A closer look from underneath revealed that the welds where the vertical rudder pedal tubes intersected the horizontal crossover tube had cracked at the aft (closest to the pilot) portion of the weld. Not pretty, and I felt very fortunate that it happened after turning off the runway, and not during takeoff or landing, which would have been very sporting, to say the least.

Called the buddy from whom I purchased the aircraft (and is a good source of gouge) and he said there is a Service Bulletin on the rudder pedals, and he had complied with the inspection portion, but had found no defects, pre-sale.

Took a look at SB 99-6-1, and my tears are classic examples of the specified failure. The permanent fix of welding finger patches (available free from Van's, per the SB) had not been completed in this case.

Called Van's today, and the Tech Advisor was very helpful. Since my welds had torn, my options are:

1. To order the finger patches, have a mechanic try to repair the welds and install the finger patches during the repair, or

2. Order new rudder pedal assemblies from Van's, which come with the finger patches pre-installed (sounds like they've done it that way since the SB came out in 99). Cost: $113 a pair.

I've gone with option 2, as paying a mech to weld will probably cost almost as much (and my welding experience is from HS metal shop, and I don't trust me on this critical piece of gear!).

Attached some pictures of the rudder positioning and the tears below, for the benefit of others, that might have older rudder pedals without the finger patches.

Big lesson learned for me on this...gotta look at and comply with all the SBs that may apply to my RV! Will be diligently doing that during the rudder pedal repair down time!

If anyone has experience, lessons learned or gotchas to beware of on removing and replacing the rudder pedal assemblies, any info would be most appreciated!

Cheers,
Bob
"Rocket" RV-6
N600SS
4SD

Here are the pics, painful to look at as they are:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1678/14rudderscg4.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4536/2ruddertearaq0.jpg

SB Inspection every 10 hrs.

Bob... the SB specifies a 10 hr. inspection period of the inspection if the gussets aren't added. It sounds like your buddy just did a one time inspection.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb99-06-1.pdf

It's easier to add the gussets....

gil A

Good Idea

New assembly is also powder coated. It appears your originals where not even primed. Not a good idea on a raw steel part even though it appears there is no corrosion on them.
Fortunately they failed on the ground. Might be a good idea to check all of the bulletins for compliance, like the fuel pick up, and others while you are waiting on the rudder bar. If that was overlooked, the others may have been as well.

rvmills said:

If anyone has experience, lessons learned or gotchas to beware of on removing and replacing the rudder pedal assemblies, any info would be most appreciated!

Click to expand...

I had to remove mine, in a 6A, for the weld job.
I couldn't remove the long bolts in the normal fashion, since the pro-sealed air scoops were now right on top of the bolt heads.

I took a piece of scrap metal and placed it between the bolt and fuselage side, so that I could use a die grinder and cutoff wheel to cut the bolt without accidental damage to the aircraft side skin.

I then replaced the bolts, only upside down this time. It all worked great, but just kind of a "pain"!

L.Adamson -- RV6A

Thanks! Concur on all counts.

Gil, Jon, and LA,

Thanks for the replies!

Gil, thanks for mentioning the 10 hr interval for inspecting non-finger-patch-gusset-installed rudders...that's important info to pass along to all.

And Jon, you're on the mark...had I been better dialed in to the Service Bulletin program, I would have inspected my rudder pedals 4 times already, and would have opted for installing the gussets (like Gil said, much easier, and much better to prevent the problem, than to wait for it to happen!)

Close SB review and compliance is top pri...the tech support rep said exactly the same thing about the fuel pickup (getting smart on that now!)

The tech support rep also said the same as Jon on the new rudder pedals...that they are now powdercoated and come with the reinforcements installed...much better in my book. Now to learn all about installing rudder pedals!

LA, will look at the bolts when I dive in there...good info, and might save a lot of angst (and time!) Thanks!

Getting smarter on the airplane every day...and thanks much to the forum and participants for adding a lot to that process!

Cheers,
Bob

rvmills said:

If anyone has experience, lessons learned or gotchas to beware of on removing and replacing the rudder pedal assemblies, any info would be most appreciated!

Click to expand...

Not much info on the actual procedure, but here is a short blurb in case someone wants to see what the gussets look like:

http://thervjournal.com/rudder_pedal_gussets.html

Splitting the bearing blocks will make it easier to reinstall the pedals.

rvmills said:

I felt very fortunate that it happened after turning off the runway, and not during takeoff or landing, which would have been very sporting, to say the least.

Click to expand...

WOW... you are one lucky guy! I sure am glad it worked out this way for you. There were so many things that could have went wrong with the timing just slightly changed! If you had luck like this in Las Vegas you would be RICH!

Same here...

Bob, I had an identical experience with the -6 I bought flying, except mine happened on takeoff roll. Applied power for takeoff, as plane began to drift I countered with rudder, felt very mushy and had no effect stopping drift. Basically just yanked the airplane into the air as I got to the edge of the runway, flew back to home base still clueless, wondering "what was that all about," blaming lousy technique by the pilot.

Landing at home base was a non-event, for some reason little rudder was needed on rollout. Only when I shoved in hard pedal to clear the runway did it dawn on me that this plane was really broke.

I ordered the new pedals from Van's - had to trim them slightly to match the old ones but they fit well. I got it all apart, brake pedals installed on new frame, then being a non-builder I stood around wondering how do I get these in there until Doug Reeves grabbed them, stuck them in, and said there, they're in, hook it all back up. It's easier to work the assembly into position if you tie-wrap the pedals to the U-frame to keep them from flopping around. The brake pedals, brake cylinders, and rudder cables should be connected with drilled bolts and castle nuts so you'll need a bunch of small cotter pins to put it all back together.

I can't plead ignorance, I knew all about the SB but in my wisdom I just blew it off. There may be a data point here...

Scorch,

Thanks for relating the similar experience (sounds like some superior airmanship made the difference that day!).

I found it a bit uncomfortable to be taxiing in with my left knee bent normally and my right leg almost straight, with my right foot tickling the brake as necessary to stay straight. I imagine your TO was a handful!

Appreciate the info on the installation as well. Parts are on the way, and I'll plan as you recommend...can I PM (or call) you or Dan if I get discombobulated while hanging upside down in the cockpit?

Thanks again!

Bob

Travis,

Though I live in RNO and am based in LAS, I'm not a gambler (as my poor luck on the tables once a year with buds during Tailhook will attest! ). Coming away from this (hopefully) a bit wiser...downloaded all the applicable Service Bulletins last night!!

Learned (again) that airplanes have a way of teaching us that "you may not know what you don't know", and it can bite ya. The forum sure is a good way to learn..."hangar flying" has always been a great source.

Humbly learning the ropes of RV aviatin'!

Cheers,
Bob

just like the SB said it would.

It's amazing that the pilots right pedal failed exactly as the AD described it would.

rvmills said:

Travis,

Though I live in RNO and am based in LAS, I'm not a gambler (as my poor luck on the tables once a year with buds during Tailhook will attest! ). Coming away from this (hopefully) a bit wiser...downloaded all the applicable Service Bulletins last night!!

Learned (again) that airplanes have a way of teaching us that "you may not know what you don't know", and it can bite ya. The forum sure is a good way to learn..."hangar flying" has always been a great source.

Humbly learning the ropes of RV aviatin'!

Cheers,
Bob

Click to expand...

You know, this experience cost you a couple bucks, and you walked away without a scratch. But honestly, you taking the time to post this may just be the wake-up call for some guy out there that saves his life. I hope all the affected owners out there learn from your post and do what they need to do. Afterall, every RV accident will eventually cost each RV owner through increases in insurance.

By the way... I was based at VGT (North Las Vegas Airport) for 4 years, until 2006. At the time I had my RV-6A, and even with only 160HP I could go rippin out of there even when the density altitude was 6k or so. Got to love these RVs!

just like the SB said it would.

wingtime said:

It's amazing that the pilots right pedal failed exactly as the AD described it would.

Click to expand...

Bruce, had the very same thought! Mine was a classic example of exactly what the SB describes.

And Travis, you're also right on the mark. If this saves one RV pilot a very scary ride...or far worse...airing this out will be fully worth it!

I'll follow up with pics of the removal and re-installation once complete, in hopes it helps others to get 'er done, if needed!

Cheers,
Bob

And yes, the RV does very well in the high country of Nevada, as you said Travis. It's a joy!

Mark the blocks...

Before you pull those blocks out, mark them because the bolt holes tend to not be square. They need to go back the in the same way they came out.

Hans

nucleus said:

Before you pull those blocks out, mark them because the bolt holes tend to not be square. They need to go back the in the same way they came out.

Hans

Click to expand...

Thanks Hans! Just to clarify, do you mean mark which block was on the left and right, and the top/bottom orientation of the blocks themselves, or to mark the fuselage interior where the blocks are before removing. I'm guessing the former...might be a dumb question, but want to be sure. Appreciate the heads-up!

Cheers,
Bob

Repaired and back flying...thanks for the good advice!

I mentioned that I'd follow up with pics and lessons from the rudder pedal tear and subsequent replacement, so here goes (a bit long, but perhaps a reference for those that run into this):

New rudder pedal assemblies arrived from Van's as promised (I decided not to try to repair the old pedals, since the new ones come powdercoated and mine were bare metal. Slightly higher cost than repair and paint, at $113 per set (not bad), but perhaps not much more than a welder (gotta learn that skill!).

As mentioned by others here and at Van's, I had to cut the old rudder pedals to get them out (glad I bought new ones). Hurt to do it, but I just couldn't wiggle them out, and I did not want to damage the skin. Here's a pic:



Here's a picture of the tear up close, with the pedals out of the airplane (painful):



Here's the old and new pedals side-by-side, to show the difference. One thing that surprised me was that the new pedals come with six of the 8 gussets welded to the back of the upright tubes (as expected), and the other two were welded to the front of the other two uprights). Checked with Van's, and it was correct that way...figure it provides for protection from compression failures of the welds in two directions that way.



I needed to drill out the holes on the brake cylinder and brake pedal attach points, as the powdercoating made the holes a bit tight for the AN-3 bolts (tip, hold the opposite vertical tube when drilling, not the lower pedal cross tube...if the drill comes through quickly, it might nick your fingers...makes a mess):



A couple RV buds at the field suggested I use AN-3-60 bolts for the brake pedal attach hinges. Worked out pretty slick (though they are $12 bolts!). Here you can see the bolts in place...and we used aluminum tube as a spacer between the hinge points to prevent over tightening and squeezing the flanges (Thanks Dan and Walt!):



For reinstallation, I followed the advice I received here and from Van's and cut the phenolic blocks in half. It made all the difference in the world. I used washers to space the halves of blocks properly, so the now-smaller holes would not be too tight on the tubes and make them drag or stick. Here's a pic of the pedals laying in the lower blocks:



Finally, here's the project put back together:



Some great lessons for this "buyer with the heart of a builder, just not the wrenching experience" (that'll change!!):

1. If the airplane feels mushy or slow to turn, or just feels "different"...check it out good...might be more than just a sluggish or dirty tailwheel.

2. Service Bulletins...got religion there...now that I know they are there, I've downloaded all that apply, and am working through them, and digging even deeper into the history of the plane...it's a good one, but gotta know all the nooks and crannys!

3. Loads of little tricks (like cutting the blocks), and some comfort notes as well...put a blanket, pillow or something under you when your upside down in the cockpit, feet sticking in the air...couple bruises here and there...but WTH, it lets you know you're alive!

4. VAF Forum bubbas are a great source of info and help...and some great brotherhood as well. In my first 6 months in the RV world, I've met and talked with some absolutely great folks! Thanks for the assist in this job!! I hope the post adds value for someone that might need to replace their old pedals!

See you as OSH!!

Cheers!

Bob
"Rocket" RV-6
N600SS
4SD

Grabeus thy Anklius Brother Mills!

Your hooked now!



RPG (spring '80 rules)

MAYBE LEFT BRAKE DRAG?

rvmills said:

I mentioned that I'd follow up with pics and lessons from the rudder pedal tear and subsequent replacement, so here goes (a bit long, but perhaps a reference for those that run into this):

Is the left pedal laid back far enough to keep from riding the brake? It does not look like it matches the angle of the right brake pedal?

Click to expand...

Our cat doesn't approve.

gasman said:

Is the left pedal laid back far enough to keep from riding the brake? It does not look like it matches the angle of the right brake pedal?

Click to expand...

Keen eye Gasman! During install I noted that the right brake pedal on each side was slightly angled aft. Asked some RVers about it and we could not think of a solution. During test taxi and subsequent taxiing and flying it has not caused any problems. I taxi and fly with feet on the outer uprights, heels on the deck (that's why I put the non-skid out there...toes on the bottom is an uncomfortable position since the pedals sit so low to the floor) but I've not had a problem with dragging brakes or pulling right.

Honestly not sure how to fix this...perhaps a brake bleed, though the system has been good and tight...just not sure. Anyone have experience with this, or seen it before? Thanks!

Bob

rvmills said:

...2. Order new rudder pedal assemblies from Van's, which come with the finger patches pre-installed (sounds like they've done it that way since the SB came out in 99). Cost: $113 a pair...

Click to expand...

I just got off the phone with Joe at Van's. I ordered the replacement rudder bars also, but they charged me $113 a piece for the two bars. Actually more in line with what I would have expected for the cost of these parts, and I wasn't too surprised to hear it.

I think someone made a mistake when you ordered them, resulting in a terrific deal for you...I wish I was that lucky (twice). I've been doing the periodic inspection up to this point, so fortunately luck didn't come into play with regards to discovering the problem.

MacNab said:

I just got off the phone with Joe at Van's. I ordered the replacement rudder bars also, but they charged me $113 a piece for the two bars. Actually more in line with what I would have expected for the cost of these parts, and I wasn't too surprised to hear it.

I think someone made a mistake when you ordered them, resulting in a terrific deal for you...I wish I was that lucky (twice). I've been doing the periodic inspection up to this point, so fortunately luck didn't come into play with regards to discovering the problem.

Click to expand...

Doug,

I paid the same as you...probably mis-spoke a bit when I said "a pair". Meant $113 for each pair of pedals, (though I see how that could have been misleading, since that sort of means a pair of left, and a pair of right pedals, and it does come as a pair of bars, as you know). Probably a bad choice of wording. I'm never (never say never!) that lucky with $$! And I too would have been doing those inspections like you had I known...much smarter on SB's now, can never be too careful! Good eyes by the way in catching yours!

Always learnin'!

Cheers,
Bob
"Rocket Six"
N600SS
4SD

rvmills said:

Doug,

I paid the same as you...probably mis-spoke a bit when I said "a pair". Meant $113 for each pair of pedals, (though I see how that could have been misleading, since that sort of means a pair of left, and a pair of right pedals, and it does come as a pair of bars, as you know). Probably a bad choice of wording. I'm never (never say never!) that lucky with $$! And I too would have been doing those inspections like you had I known...much smarter on SB's now, can never be too careful! Good eyes by the way in catching yours!

Always learnin'!

Cheers,
Bob
"Rocket Six"
N600SS
4SD

Click to expand...

I kind of suspected that you might have mistated the price, Bob. The primary reason for my post was to let others know so they wouldn't get an unexpected surprise when they called Van's.

Thanks for the compliment about catching it, but to be honest, I forgot the last inspection interval (it had been about twenty hours since I last inspected it) and your post was a very timely reminder that I needed to check it again. So, I owe you a debt of gratitute as well.

MacNab said:

Thanks for the compliment about catching it, but to be honest, I forgot the last inspection interval (it had been about twenty hours since I last inspected it) and your post was a very timely reminder that I needed to check it again. So, I owe you a debt of gratitute as well.

Click to expand...

Excellent! I've received so much from the folks on the forum...glad I was able to give a little back!

Happy Flying!
Bob

TO MATCH THE PEDALS...

rvmills said:

Keen eye Gasman! During install I noted that the right brake pedal on each side was slightly angled aft. Asked some RVers about it and we could not think of a solution. During test taxi and subsequent taxiing and flying it has not caused any problems. I taxi and fly with feet on the outer uprights, heels on the deck (that's why I put the non-skid out there...toes on the bottom is an uncomfortable position since the pedals sit so low to the floor) but I've not had a problem with dragging brakes or pulling right.

Honestly not sure how to fix this...perhaps a brake bleed, though the system has been good and tight...just not sure. Anyone have experience with this, or seen it before? Thanks!

Bob

Click to expand...

With the rudder pedals (lower bar) in line. Now the brake pedals need to be in line also. Each will tilt toward the firewall the same amount. In order to do this, the left brake pedal on each side (if dual brakes installed) MUST BE DRILLED lower in the ear that the master cyl. is bolted to. This will allow the brake pedal to tilt toward the firewall and match the right one. This is due to the fact that one set of pedals is mounted behind the other from above.

Rudder peddles

I just bought an RV6 and picked it up from the AI who did the annual. I fly out of a 1900' grass strip with tall trees at each end. Being only the second time I was in an RV6 and only the second time I landed one I decided to come in a little hot in order to make sure I had good control on gusty day. I wasted about 900' before I could get the plane to touch down and made a couple of more small bounces. With only 500' left I aggressively applied the brakes and as I did, you guessed it the ?right rudder peddle? went right to the floor. I still had use of the right brake and was able to stop before the fence. I had planned to check all the SB's when I got home. I guess that was not such a good idea. I guess I will be down for a while with this one.

Dan

Hoffert said:

With only 500' left I aggressively applied the brakes and as I did, you guessed it the ?right rudder peddle? went right to the floor. I still had use of the right brake and was able to stop before the fence. I had planned to check all the SB's when I got home. I guess that was not such a good idea. I guess I will be down for a while with this one.

Dan

Click to expand...

Dan,

Very glad you and the airplane are OK! Nice work keeping 'er straight and getting it stopped!

FWIW, mine happened turning off the runway, so was way less hairy than your experience, but I also found it controllable with the brake (albeit very uncomfortable, even at taxi speed).

Some of the other posters had some great advice that helped quite a bit, and reduced the number of aarrgghh! moments (thanks again guys!).

I had a heck of a time getting the pedal assemblies out, and ended up cutting them in half to remove. The side mounting blocks just wouldn't clear the structure (just a quarter inch more woulda done it...but I wasn't willing to push it). I wanted new pedals anyway, due to the size of the tear, and my lack of welding ability, so cutting was an OK decision for me. Whether you can get them out in one piece and can repair them and add the gussets, or need to hack and replace them, one great piece of advice was to cut the side mounting blocks in half (as was already done with the center block on mine). This made the reinstall a breeze, and a washer on each bolt between the blocks made the pedals fit just right, not too loose, but with no binding.

Some padding on the spar might also prevent sore spots on your chest, back and sides from crawling around under there too (how do I know, you ask? )

Best of luck, and a speedy return to flying. If pics help, there are some in this thread, and happy to send you any others.

Again, glad it turned out OK, with no other damage!!

Cheers,
Bob Mills
"Rocket" RV-6
N600SS
4SD

RV6 rudder troubles nearly resolved

Bob, the photos ware a great help. The parts came in last night so will try to size up the project tonight line up all tools and helpers needed and hopefully be back in the air next week. I am going to repaint the plane do to a poor prep job on the original paint the old paint is laterally falling off. It should be easy to strip. The rest of the plane is in great shape. Well with the exception of the right rudder peddle.

Best Regards
Dan