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  #41  
Old 11-26-2021, 04:23 PM
vlittle's Avatar
vlittle vlittle is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Victoria, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sailor View Post
RV’s do not slip well, actually they are poor at it. If you think they are good at slipping then you’ve never flown anything that is actually good. Modern Cessnas and Pipers, Beechcraft etc are also lousy slippers. None of them have enough rudder. They all do have effective flaps, especially Cessnas so why bother even fooling around with slips? If you’ve misjudged your approach to the point where full flaps doesn’t do the job you might consider spending more time on your approach’s rather than side slips.

Slips were necessary in aircraft without flaps and in older aircraft that had an abundance of rudder like Cubs, Aeronca,Luscombe,Tcarts etc. You could slip them to a degree that the whole aircraft was buffeting because the inner wing was partially stalled and they could really lose altitude at slow speeds. You just had to make sure you decreased the AOA prior to coming out of the slip or you may stall.
My ab-initio training on a 172 required slipping to adjust descent angle and airspeed on every landing without flaps. Later, flap landings were introduced. Reason: electric flaps fail and you better be comfortable with slips. It also makes flaps plus slip landings more comfortable.

This was always my preferred method of landing my 9A… maximum drag configuration on final. Especially when formation landing with short wing RVs so I didn’t overrun them.

Vv
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  #42  
Old 11-26-2021, 09:37 PM
Robert Sailor Robert Sailor is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
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I have zero issues with learning slips or any other maneuvers, it’s a good idea
I’m just commenting on how RV’s slip. Not much out there will fly quite as nice as an RV which is why after flying one for the first time I gave up on the idea of buying another certified aircraft, period. RV’s are very special……they just don’t slip that well
  #43  
Old 11-26-2021, 11:28 PM
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jliltd jliltd is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Rancho San Lorenzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
Not side slip on final... we "crab" into the wind to kill drift which keeps airplane on centerline - airplane continues to fly true and straight to the relative wind (no cross controls) on final. As the airplane slows, when we begin the flare, the crab needs to increase to hold centerline, and at this point, we revert to a slip and land wing low touching down on one wheel. Some folks hold the crab and straighten the airplane with rudder at touchdown - a problem arrises if crab is kicked out too soon or too late. Too soon and the airplane drifts sideways with the crosswind loosing runway centerline and also placing large side load on the gear at touchdown. Too late and airplane lands in the crab with large side load on the gear. Best to transition from crab to slip during the flare. Tbakes practice...
Landing on the upwind wheel is side slipping with associated cross control, not crabbing.

It almost sounds like 727 technique. What you just described is what large swept-wing jets do because of wing tips, engine nacelles and extended flaps that will scrape the ground if a wing is low. That means they can't do a side slip down to landing. So they fly in a crab and kick it straight at the last minute. The only small aircraft pilots who do this regularly, then without the "kick" are Ercoupe pilots. All the sage (and occasionally crusty) tailwheel instructors I have ever had would have beat me over the head from the back seat were I to attempt to do the crab and kick method. And I have trained with the likes of Amelia Reid, Duane Cole and Bruce Bohannon.

There was a time in the 70's and 80's that flight schools with 172's and Cherokees were teaching the crab and kick method and it was even addressed in the flight training manuals of the time. That makes sense when many of the students would eventually end up in big iron so showing them that way made it easier later.

I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with a crab and kick method, just that it makes it safer for an average joe like me to establish cross-wind correction on a stabilized approach from way out and then all the way down final. I don't think kicking at the last minute is not necessarily "stabilized" and I am way too clumsy to do that dance at an altitude of 12 inches off the deck. I have also noticed that when keeping the aircraft axis aligned down the runway on final it is very easy to determine if the cross wind component exceeds the aircraft's limits. Running out of rudder before arresting the ground drift equals a no go and find another runway. Easier to change plans when way out and high than slow and down near the ground.
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  #44  
Old 11-27-2021, 08:21 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jliltd View Post
Landing on the upwind wheel is side slipping with associated cross control, not crabbing.

It almost sounds like 727 technique. What you just described is what large swept-wing jets do because of wing tips, engine nacelles and extended flaps that will scrape the ground if a wing is low. That means they can't do a side slip down to landing. So they fly in a crab and kick it straight at the last minute. The only small aircraft pilots who do this regularly, then without the "kick" are Ercoupe pilots. All the sage (and occasionally crusty) tailwheel instructors I have ever had would have beat me over the head from the back seat were I to attempt to do the crab and kick method. And I have trained with the likes of Amelia Reid, Duane Cole and Bruce Bohannon.

There was a time in the 70's and 80's that flight schools with 172's and Cherokees were teaching the crab and kick method and it was even addressed in the flight training manuals of the time. That makes sense when many of the students would eventually end up in big iron so showing them that way made it easier later.

I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with a crab and kick method, just that it makes it safer for an average joe like me to establish cross-wind correction on a stabilized approach from way out and then all the way down final. I don't think kicking at the last minute is not necessarily "stabilized" and I am way too clumsy to do that dance at an altitude of 12 inches off the deck. I have also noticed that when keeping the aircraft axis aligned down the runway on final it is very easy to determine if the cross wind component exceeds the aircraft's limits. Running out of rudder before arresting the ground drift equals a no go and find another runway. Easier to change plans when way out and high than slow and down near the ground.
I learned by slipping down final. However, my 6A transition CFI recommended trying the crab approach. I settled on a hybrid. I crab down final and put in a slip as I come over the numbers. I find that the winds seems to change dramatically coming down the last 100+ feet anyways (at least at my home airport), so nothing is really stabilized anyways. This also makes the final approach more stabilized across different landings, as slips require more power to achieve the same decent rate as a non slip final. Seems easier to me to just wait until I get into the conditions at the runway environment first. You do need to be a bit quicker putting in the slip though with this method.
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  #45  
Old 11-27-2021, 08:43 AM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Location: Garden City, Tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
I learned by slipping down final. However, my 6A transition CFI recommended trying the crab approach. I settled on a hybrid. I crab down final and put in a slip as I come over the numbers. I find that the winds seems to change dramatically coming down the last 100+ feet anyways (at least at my home airport), so nothing is really stabilized anyways. This also makes the final approach more stabilized across different landings, as slips require more power to achieve the same decent rate as a non slip final. Seems easier to me to just wait until I get into the conditions at the runway environment first. You do need to be a bit quicker putting in the slip though with this method.
Bingo. I crab all the way to the numbers, it gives you an excellent sense of what the wind is doing at the actual runway environment. Then when it's time to actually flare and start feeling for the runway, kick in enough rudder to align the nose, and enough aileron to keep you there. You can put whatever name you like on it, it's a dance. Practice it often because one day you'll need it for real.
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  #46  
Old 11-27-2021, 11:39 AM
tjo tjo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: La Center,wa
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I learned in J5, so slips where the way until I had to transition to a 172. At that point, it was flaps only. Since then, I have learned that:
1) If you have to do a go around, slips allow you to start your climb much sooner than retracting flaps.
2) slips are great for clearing obstacles at the approach end of short runways, especially in combination with flaps.
3) I prefere slips to flaps, but usually use both.
4) a horizontal slip is a great way to apply the "brakes" if you do a fast approach and need to bleed speed.
5) new passengers don't like slips, especially in an airplane that does them well, like a cub

Tim
  #47  
Old 11-27-2021, 12:02 PM
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jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
Posts: 1,984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
I learned by slipping down final. However, my 6A transition CFI recommended trying the crab approach. I settled on a hybrid. I crab down final and put in a slip as I come over the numbers. I find that the winds seems to change dramatically coming down the last 100+ feet anyways (at least at my home airport), so nothing is really stabilized anyways. This also makes the final approach more stabilized across different landings, as slips require more power to achieve the same decent rate as a non slip final. Seems easier to me to just wait until I get into the conditions at the runway environment first. You do need to be a bit quicker putting in the slip though with this method.
+1 Same technique I use, I do it a tad before the numbers though.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2021, 06:32 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
Bingo. I crab all the way to the numbers, it gives you an excellent sense of what the wind is doing at the actual runway environment. Then when it's time to actually flare and start feeling for the runway, kick in enough rudder to align the nose, and enough aileron to keep you there. You can put whatever name you like on it, it's a dance. Practice it often because one day you'll need it for real.
I’m with Greg. That’s pretty much how I do all my landings, and it works great on really windy days. The same technique works on most airplanes I’ve ever flown, no matter how big they are - with slight variations. On an RV I start the runway alignment at a low altitude - 50-100 feet depending on crosswind strength and wind gusts. On a big airplane the runway alignment starts at a higher AGL altitude, about 200-300’, and this is by design. A coupled autoland on an airliner starts with a crab down final until below 500’. Then it goes into a runway alignment mode where the autopilot transitions from a crab to a forward slip. It maintains this control through the landing. At ‘flare capture’ the bank angle doesn’t change and runway centerline (localizer) is maintained with rudder/nose wheel steering. This is all a little dated and may be a little different now, but is basically the same type of technique I use in a normal VFR landing in my RV, control-wise. For me anyway, flying a complete final approach leg in a forward slip is a little uncomfortable, and not necessary in terms of control authority and stall margin. Your approach techniques are important for you and might vary. Whatever way you are trained and we’ll practiced at is probably the safest technique for you. There’s more than one way.
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